M

mdredmond

Well Known Member
Anyone have any details on the crash yesterday at Oshkosh? All I can find is that a two-passenger plane crashed just short of the runway.

TIA,

-mdr
 
How awful. It was a guy named Cliff Shaw and his wife, from Washington state. They have kid(s) and grandkids.

Plane was a Europa XS. Robert Miller is now saying reports of a stall/spin on final, but I'm not sure where he got that.
 
Oshkosh Crash

That is just terrible news. My first flight into Oshkosh was overwhelming. I would imagine they were pretty excited too bringing their pride and joy into the biggest gathering of experimentals in the world. I can identify with them being about the same age with grand kids of our own. It gives me a cold chill down my spine. Terrible, just terrible.
NYTOM
 
That is a real bummer, seems to happen every year in one form or another. Last year when I was there a P51 and a Glastar Sportsman went down. I was listening to the live feed of OSH tower yesterday, and it was just amazing how much traffic there was. Being a new pilot, I would be terrified to fly into the kind of gridlock I was hearing.
 
Just terrible. Two young men (26 and 31) died this week near Walnut Ridge Ar. when the cub they were flying went down and burst into flames. We knew both of their parents and are deeply saddened at their loss. It is a great hobby that we are passionate about but it reinforces the need to do things by the book. Even then there is still the possibility of something like this.

My wife was talking about it but she still is more comfortable about my flying than me owning a motorcycle. Probably because she stayed with me at the hospital when I destroyed my last one.

My thoughts and prayers are with their family.
 
I just got back from OSH this afternoon.

The accident aircraft was about two or three airplanes behind me. Typical approach to 27, close in downwind with one turn from downwind to final. I landed and after the controller asked me to exit at the first turn off, he was calling for closure of the airport. After parking, I watched the rescue teams with my binoculars. They had the runway closed for almost two hours.

Folks need to be careful making tight, in close turns. It's too easy to over crank the bank angle when oveshooting, resulting in a possible stall. I don't know if that what happened to this pilot, but it looks like like based upon a description I heard from a fellow pilot who witnessed the accident.

My condolences to their family. It was a sad day on Sunday.
 
Folks need to be careful making tight, in close turns. It's too easy to over crank the bank angle when oveshooting, resulting in a possible stall. I don't know if that what happened to this pilot, but it looks like like based upon a description I heard from a fellow pilot who witnessed the accident.
Click to expand...

Pure conjecture, but yeah, sounds like an all-too-common "a little more rudder to tighten up this turn..." stall/spin.

Anyone know if that electronic AOA gadget (like Doug has) will warn of an incipient cross-control stall? I guess maybe, but only when the left wing is in danger of stalling?
 
Last edited:
f1rocket said:
...Folks need to be careful making tight, in close turns. It's too easy to over crank the bank angle when oveshooting, resulting in a possible stall.
Click to expand...

I would suggest the more dangerous thing is the feeling that one should not crank the bank angle, so should help it around with rudder and use a shallow bank angle. Much easier to get in very serious trouble with too much rudder than too much bank angle.
 
Much easier to get in very serious trouble with too much rudder than too much bank angle.
Click to expand...

Larry, you got that right. A steep turn is a steep turn whether you're 500 feet up or 5000. Nothing fundamentally wrong with a coordinated steep turn...

But a stall in a skidded turn, like trying to eke out a little more rate with the rudder, is wicked. That inside wing 'tucks under' with no buffet, no warning, nothing. The turbulent airflow over the inside (stalling) wing flows outward and misses the tail, so you can't feel it coming. The result is you're inverted and spinning in about .5 seconds.

I feel really dumb mentioning it because I'm so low-time, but it's a terribly common thing. Kills a hundred or so people every year...
 
For what it's worth, I've got over 300 hours in my Dad's Europa XS Monowheel and it's a GREAT flying airframe. Very docile and capable. 200MPH at 6GPH at 17.5K is pretty remarkable.
 
N112B said:
For what it's worth, I've got over 300 hours in my Dad's Europa XS Monowheel and it's a GREAT flying airframe. Very docile and capable. 200MPH at 6GPH at 17.5K is pretty remarkable.
Click to expand...
Ditto that. I have a few hours in a friend's Europa and they really are a nice flying plane. When I read about the accident all I could think of was that he must have been distracted while making that turn and ...

As a friend once told me, "It is easy to judge a dead pilot."

Bummer for everyone involved.
 
N112B said:
For what it's worth, I've got over 300 hours in my Dad's Europa XS Monowheel and it's a GREAT flying airframe. Very docile and capable. 200MPH at 6GPH at 17.5K is pretty remarkable.
Click to expand...
Do you recall whether there was any natural stall warning on the Europa, e.g. noticeable buffet?

The RVs that I have flown (RV-4, -6 and -8) had the tiniest little bit of buffet about a half knot before the stall. But the buffet was very low intensity, so you wouldn't notice it unless you were looking for it, and it happened so close to the stall that it wouldn't provide enough warning even if it was stronger. Most folks seem to figure that they are good enough pilots that they wouldn't get distracted and pull to the stall in the final turn. And 99.9% of the time they are probably right. But it is that odd ball 0.1% situation that will kill you.

If your RV doesn't have some sort of good stall warning, maybe it would be a good idea to add an AOA system with aural warning. The life you save might be your own. A system that only provides a visual warning isn't good enough, as it won't help on the day that you are looking outside to watch other traffic, or to avoid overshooting the runway centreline.

It might also be interesting to experiment with leading edge stall strips. It might be possible to craft a stall strip that would send some disturbed air over the tail, without any real effect on the stall speed.
 
I spent a lot of time watching arrivals from the platforms along 18/36 at OSH early this week and saw some pretty scary arrivals. I can see how people get nervous and mess things up. Not only are you likely tired from flying all day, but there is the anxiety of arriving at OSH in crowded airspace with lots of pilots watching. People were often switched at the last minute from the runway to the taxiway and made steep turns while low and slow. The patterns were tighter than most people fly - at least at my airport, people fly such large patterns that I will sometimes turn in front of them from downwind and clear the rwy before they turn final. I'm sure most people don't practice this low and slow stuff and tight patterns before going to OSH, and with the "average" number of hours flown by most GA pilots I bet a lot of people aren't that proficient or well practiced. I saw one guy pancake it in from like 20 feet in a Cherokee - he started his flare at like 100' and just kept pulling the nose higher and higher. Scary stuff - it was the hardest landing I've ever seen.

I also saw lots of great landings and well executed approaches, especially given the gusty x-wind on Tuesday. When / if I ever fly in to OSH I plan on making sure I'm proficient in that stuff before I go.

I'm not criticizing anyone specifically - I know nothing of the details of the accident. I just think these things should not happen and are avoidable with practice and training. It is terrible that someone died on the way into OSH.

T.
 
Kevin Horton said:
Do you recall whether there was any natural stall warning on the Europa, e.g. noticeable buffet?
Click to expand...

It's been a few months since I've flown the Europa but as I remember there is noticeable pre-stall buffet clean. Less warning and more wing drop in landing config. Deep stalls are controllable with happy rudder feet.
 
Got stall strip?

Kevin Horton said:
It might also be interesting to experiment with leading edge stall strips. It might be possible to craft a stall strip that would send some disturbed air over the tail, without any real effect on the stall speed.
Click to expand...

I got a stall strip. It's called THE LANDING GEAR LEG. Jury is still out on the good/bad/indifferent views of the RV8 tail shake stall warning system Van (albeit unknowingly) built into the design. (Or, at least just mine and Randy Lervold's?) As Mel pointed out, it can't be good from a structural standpoint, but if not experienced on a regular basis, I think it should only prove as a very sound reminder to all but the most completely ignorant pilot that YOURGONNAFALLOUTTATHESKY if you don't unload. I would not expect the Europa to show much stall warning if any. They're so doggone clean and there isn't anything to stir up the airflow enough to make stuff shake rattle and roll. I don't recall if when you flew with me in my -8 way back when in Roswell that we did any stalls. But I tell ya, the low pass of that CRJ you were testing I will never forget. :)

Most unfortunate for those involved in this crash.
 
Do you recall whether there was any natural stall warning on the Europa, e.g. noticeable buffet?
Click to expand...

The real problem is stalling while in an uncoordinated turn. In a normal stall, your wing stalls near the root first - that turbulent air hits the tail and gives you whatever buffet you're going to get, depending on the plane.

In a skidded turn, the stall happens further out on the wing and there's no warning at all - the turbulent air 'misses' the tail. Worse, the first part of the wing to stall is right out there near the inside wing's aileron, so you basically lose that too.

The point is that even in a plane that usually gives lots of warning before stalling, you likely won't get the same warning in an uncoordinated, turning 'traffic-pattern-type' stall.

See very cool video here.
 
mdredmond said:
See very cool video here.
Click to expand...

Excellent Video, nice website to know about! Anybody know what type of plane was used in the video? If it was an Extra 300, like the website implies, YOUR RESULTS WILL VARY.

I'd like to see that recovery made in various type aircraft. (RV-7A, Europa, Luscombe, C-150, etc.)

Guess I'll have to give it my own test later this week!
 
Last edited:
N112B said:
I'd like to see that recovery made in various type aircraft. (RV-7A, Europa, Luscombe, C-150, etc.)
Click to expand...
There is no magic to the recovery - any of those aircraft could do that recovery, if the pilot just flew the aircraft, and didn't panic. The aircraft doesn't know whether it is upright, or upside down. Reduce the angle of attack, roll to the nearest horizon, and smoothly recover from the dive without pulling so hard that you stall again. Use power as required to ensure you neither go past VNE (or the flap limit speed), nor stall again.

Many folks who have never been upside down before tend to pull when they see a face full of ground. That puts them deeper into the stall, and means a big altitude loss, in the best of circumstances. In the worst of circumstances, they never recover.
 
Kevin Horton said:
There is no magic to the recovery - any of those aircraft could do that recovery, if the pilot just flew the aircraft, and didn't panic.
Click to expand...


He knew it was coming & made a perfect recovery---still lost 700 ft. How many close in base to final turns are made above 700 ft? The point is to not EVER get into this situation by cross controling the turn.

BOB
 
Glider vs Power statistics

Now, I don't have my license, only 23 hrs or so, and model flying experience, so I may not be best placed to make comment. BUT, has anyone ever compared low level stall/spin stats between gliders and powered aircraft? I'd be curious to know whether gliders have a better record (I'm surmising that the lack of power to back them up makes the average glider pilot a little more aware, but admittedly that's quite a leap)...
 
FWIW

AntiGravity said:
Now, I don't have my license, only 23 hrs or so, and model flying experience, so I may not be best placed to make comment. BUT, has anyone ever compared low level stall/spin stats between gliders and powered aircraft? I'd be curious to know whether gliders have a better record (I'm surmising that the lack of power to back them up makes the average glider pilot a little more aware, but admittedly that's quite a leap)...
Click to expand...

Having zero experience in a Glider, I'd still say that because most *REQUIRE* coordinated turns, your eye, hand, foot skills are probably way better than most powered pilots. So I suspect it has more to do with that than just an engine vs. none
 
Of course we will never know

The pilot flew the plane all the way from washington and was following a lot of others to land. I doubt that left to his own devices there would have been a problem. Short approach, overshoot, pull back on the stick to catch it, kick the rudder to bring the tail around ... somehow I dont think so. More likely, conjested runway, I can hold it off, I don't want to go around in this circus ...

Bob Axsom
 
Gliders

I have a few hundred hours in high performance gliders so I can speak to the subject. Glider pilots master stall anticipation to perfection since while working thermals they need to get tight turns at low speeds. When one flies a glider one need to fly clean or one looses lots of altitude very fast. Control coordination is a must. Despite the fact glider pilots master coordinated turns and they usually fly very well they still get killed by stalls and spins, you ask how? Well, when you screw up calculating your approach or suddenly wind picks up and there is an obstacle (e.g. trees) in front of you the natural tendency is to pull. Well, you pull and pull until the moment comes. I once saw a girl after 200 miles x-country flight crashing on final. Despite the fact she did not recover she escaped unharmed. Some gliders will spin with vertical speed in the range of 30 miles per hour and they will hit the ground with the wing first absorbing the impact. She was just in shock. Had she tried to recover she would have been dead for sure. She would have impacted the ground diving. She knew she was on the edge but she would not have made over the trees if she had not tried. She took a risk. She made her first mistake at 1500 feet what followed was a consequence of that. She should have landed somewhere else e.g. farmer?s field.

Anyway the above story is just an example. There are many reason pilots get into spins and stalls. Power pilots have a definite advantage.

Someone already said fly by the book and hope all is going to be ok.

Flying single engine airplanes will always be risky.
 
Stall/Spin crashes

Unfortunately, we will read about these type crashes for as long as we fly,and hope we are not the ones being read about. For those who have never flown into Oshkosh or Lakeland type events, be aware, your chances are higher than those who have been before.I am not critisizing or under-estimating anyones skills or experience, but you have to image the number of pilots on their first trip to such an event...All the planning and anticipation cannot overcome the overwhelming complexity of a quickly changing multi speed range, almost formation like pattern atmosphere that inevitably you will encounter when you get "there".My first trip into Lakeland was in a '46 T-Craft, and after 1:20 hrs of Lake Parker hold due to a previous crash, I was hustled between a Bonanza and a Pitts....I was yellow arc to the numbers,then slip all the way til stall/3 point to keep the spacing between us. I happen to live on my own strip, and can practice the odd non-typical stuff on a regular basis. Take your average (or above average) pilot and challenge he or she with speed management,runway changes and little to no radio contact.....add a passenger ohhing and ooohing, and the chance of misshap greatly increases. I can only advise anyone who intends to "plan" to fly to one of these great events...please, PRACTICE, PRACTICE everything! You need to be able to know your plane and its characteristics in all situations without a doubt!! Just my opinion from experience,
Fly safe,

Bill E. RV-4 finishing
 
Practice, practice........

Thanks Matt for the very appropriate video.

Guys, I won't Monday-morning-quarteback but from what I've seen instructing, many pilots never practice enough stalls and slow flight and stalls with a BUNCH of rudder in either direction (practice it both ways) often enough.

I'm in the ag business (36 years now) and ride the stall's edge daily and it'd better be in a cooprdinated way! We've lost our share of guys in this business because of poor flight skills too.

When you lift off in one of these RV's and the nose goes left, do you use right aileron to correct that or do you use rudder? You should not be using aileron since yaw is a motion corrected by rudder. Checking yourself here will tell you that you need more rudder skills. Go and practice at altitude and please practice slow flight at approach speeds and keep pushing it 'til it stalls and then do it again with enough rudder input to deflect the ball one ball width. Then hang on for the ride as it goes over the top with a wing really down....it may scare you.....that's what it should do! It's all well and good up high but hopefully you'll be more aware of your coordination from then on and especially during approaches at low altitude in the pattern,
 
I think many people are missing the point here. If you are in a 45+ degree bank and pulling some G to tighten up a turn on final at say 500 feet, it doesn't matter what you are doing with the rudder when the aircraft stalls, you will be inverted in less than a second. Airspeed will be around 50 knots and the ground will be rushing up to meet the canopy. You will not be able to roll out until the airspeed builds because the airplane is still stalled.

If anyone thinks most pilots will have the presence of mind to keep the nose pointed towards the ground while they get back to 65-75 knots on the ASI and control back and THEN not pull too hard to stall again with almost no altitude remaining, I'd guess you'd be wrong as proven in so many accidents like this. From personal experience, the desire to pull when the ground is rushing up at you is OVERPOWERING. Even the highly trained pilots in the C-5 crash not long ago, continued to pull after stalling and Alpha reached over 15 degrees.

Sean Tucker would probably have no trouble saving it, most of us would. There is a huge difference between praticing something you expect and having the unexpected happen at low altitude. The best advice is never get into the situation to begin with- don't yank and bank at low altitudes.
 
I think many people are missing the point here. If you are in a 45+ degree bank and pulling some G to tighten up a turn on final at say 500 feet, it doesn't matter what you are doing with the rudder when the aircraft stalls, you will be inverted in less than a second. Airspeed will be around 50 knots and the ground will be rushing up to meet the canopy. You will not be able to roll out until the airspeed builds because the airplane is still stalled.
Click to expand...

Your points are good ones, but I disagree with the statement above. I don't think 'yanking and banking' is really the problem with most of these stall/spin crashes (more than one per week, on average), though surely it is a factor in some.

Uncoordinated flight is the problem. You can't spin if the ball is centered (true, you also can't spin without stalling first). What you do with the rudder during a stall has EVERYTHING to do with whether you spin or end up inverted!

What you describe in the accelerated stall scenario above is only true if the turn is uncoordinated. In a well coordinated accelerated stall, the nose will pitch down just like in any other stall, because the wings both stall at the same time. You won't end up inverted. Remember doing accelerated stalls during training? I don't remember ever being upside down!

If you are slipping, the plane will snap toward the outside wing, because it stalled first. If you're skidding, you'll snap toward the inside wing. Either of these is an incipient spin. Ending up inverted in this scenario would surely be the result of a stall during a skidded turn, which is exactly what this discussion has been about :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
rv6ejguy said:
If you are in a 45+ degree bank and pulling some G to tighten up a turn on final at say 500 feet, it doesn't matter what you are doing with the rudder when the aircraft stalls, you will be inverted in less than a second. Airspeed will be around 50 knots and the ground will be rushing up to meet the canopy. You will not be able to roll out until the airspeed builds because the airplane is still stalled.
Click to expand...
Maybe in your airplane, but not in mine. Have you actually done accelerated stalls in your RV? Your mileage DEFINITELY may vary. Don't trust rumor. Trust your own flight testing in your own airplane.

I do a fair amount of low-level flying, with some yanking and banking. Go ahead and flame me if you feel compelled to do so. Tell me horror stories. I'm sure you're all thinking I'm an idiot and I'm going to kill myself.

I did accelerated stall testing in my airplane at various airspeeds, starting from imminent stall all the way up to Va. I'm very familiar with where it breaks and how, and how many G it takes at each speed, not to mention the physical cues the airframe provides. Do this in your own airplane (AT ALTITUDE!!!) and come to your own conclusions.

The previous poster's comments about keeping it coordinated are right on. How well you can fly determines, well...how well you fly.

If you've never done high speed accelerated stalls (i.e. 3+ G) in your own airplane, and you know that threshold is just "lurking" out there somewhere, and you do low level yanking and banking...aren't you just slightly uneasy not knowing exactly where that threshold lies?

It's like spin recovery in your RV. I know lots of people who haven't spun their RV. As a result, they tend to shy away from stalls and slow flight. It's a real pity not to know your airplane imho.

In any case, "remember flight training" has little bearing on how your RV will actually behave. Do your flight testing on your own airplane, because that is the only way to draw any conclusions.
 
spins

>> I know lots of people who haven't spun their RV.

This brings up an interesting point about flight testing. From what I understand, the RV-9/9A is not rated for spins. I interpret this to mean that one should never intentionally spin it. Does this mean if you inadvertently get into a spin you might be toast?

Personally, I agree with the last post on the point of knowing your airplane. Even though the 9 may not be rated for spins, if I could do it safely, I'd feel much more comfortable taking it up very high, and trying a few, just so I can see for myself how it will behave (so I don't get caught by a nasty surprise if I end up in an accidental spin someday).

I suspect the -9 must recover just fine from spins 99.9% of the time... I would be very hesitant to get into an airplane that was known to be widly unpredictable and uncontrollable in a spin situation!
 
So in my testing of my 9A. Accelerated stalls up to 4G using a bank to the right would simply pitch me left to mostly wings level. Seemed a fairly basic non event...

Then I did cross controlled stalls... bam snap to inverted everytime!

I have not spun, only stalls with rudder input to see the break and wing drop entry, then recover before even 1/4 turn.

As Dan says, test it yourself so you know how it flys.
 
Perhaps I should have qualified the yanking and banking statement by including the words low airspeed in there. Obviously yanking at banking at low altitudes is not particularly dangerous with experience and speed in hand.

I agree with Dan here about the part- know your airplane. Priceless in an emergency like this. And please if you are going out to test flight characteristics like this, follow Dan's advice and do it up high.

I've done some accelerated stalls in my 6A and it gets your attention and I lost 400 feet in the recovery from one and the wing dropped pretty sharply to the right with the ball centered and I was READY for it because I was initiating it. Add a couple more seconds if you are not expecting it. I wouldn't assume because one RV or aircraft type does not exhibit certain characteristics that the next one won't be different so the know YOUR airplane part is very important.

I'd also agree that having the ball centered at all times negates a lot of evil things in this situation. I've noticed many pilots I fly with don't use the rudder pedals except to takeoff and land and perhaps that is a primary point that should be addressed. I think Flying magazine recently had an article discussing this too.

I'd caution everyone who thinks this type of accident can't happen to them. Probably the thousands of people killed in accidents like this over the last 100 years thought the same thing. My father who has been flying for almost 60 years, ex military fighter pilot and instructor has seen several experienced friends flick in flying everything from T6s, P51s to F86s and gone to dozens of other funerals for ones he didn't witness piling in in this way. A Piper Cub can kill you just as surely as an F104 if you do the wrong thing.

Always things to be learned and applied from these tragedies and it is informative to hear other pilots perspectives on things like this. I've learned something here and will be doing some more training as a result. Fly safe all.
 
Last edited:
Every year someone buys a farm going to or returning from OSH.
The prime reason is lack of proficiency. Real pilots who fly regularly do not unintentionally stall out in the traffic pattern or anywhere else.

Airspeed control and situational awareness, that's what it's all about.
I gave a guy a BFR not long ago and that's what we talked about. Turns out I was preaching to the choir, he agreed 200%, and is one of the better pilots I know, maybe better than me. :)

OSH is a challenge. If only there were a way to get guys to a briefing on what to expect and emphasize, above all else, FLY YOUR AIRPLANE.

dd
 
David-aviator said:
Real pilots who fly regularly do not unintentionally stall out in the traffic pattern or anywhere else.
Click to expand...

Never? This seems a little unfair to the memory of many very good pilots who momentarily got behind things. JMHO.
 
Every year someone buys a farm going to or returning from OSH.
The prime reason is lack of proficiency. Real pilots who fly regularly do not unintentionally stall out in the traffic pattern or anywhere else.
Click to expand...
This is the classical "I'm better than the idiot who just had that accident" rationalization that pilots use to justify why it is OK to continue doing the same thing the same way they've always done it. Many of the guys who crash thought they were pretty good too.
 
David-aviator said:
The prime reason is lack of proficiency. Real pilots who fly regularly do not unintentionally stall out in the traffic pattern or anywhere else.[/COLOR]
Click to expand...

Only sort-of.

I don't have the numbers right in front of me, but I remember seeing that there was a surprising correlation between higher time and stall/spin accidents.

IIRC, students were least likely to spin one in, followed by ATP, then Private, with Commercial having the highest rate. Interestingly, students are more likely to accidentally stall/spin when the instructor is in the plane than when flying alone.

I'm no expert, but what this suggests to me is that the problem isn't one of skill or proficiency, but perhaps a combination of complacency and distraction.
 
Kevin Horton said:
This is the classical "I'm better than the idiot who just had that accident" rationalization that pilots use to justify why it is OK to continue doing the same thing the same way they've always done it. Many of the guys who crash thought they were pretty good too.
Click to expand...

Another way to say it is my ego got to me, I thought I was a little better than I really am. If you read that in my message, you do not comprehend what you read.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with flying an airplane knowing what your airspeed is every moment of flight or at the very least, trying to do so. To say so is not to say "I am perfect".

No one is. Every flight needs an honest debriefing, no matter how informal or personal. Self evaluation is maniditory. It is the only way to stay alive. That's a reality of this business.

As Chuck Yeager said at OSH, we dealt with death with humor.
It helps but not completely.

dd
 
Another thing ... before I do any serious flight testing I'm gonna get some intensive training in aerobatics and unusual attitude recovery. We did spins in the 152 during my PPL training 15 years ago, but that is a far sight from an accelerated stall and becoming inverted in the -8!.
BTW, did anyone else see Sean Tucker do the routine in the Columbia at OSH? That was COOL! :D :D

Thomas
 
One of the biggest "sucker punches" that flying offers is the base to final stall/spin. Most of us were taught to fly airspeed rather than angle of attack. You could be making your "final" turn at a fat airspeed and still get into big trouble because you ask too much from your wing's AOA. We are watching the airspeed indicator which is really only a symptom of the problem...the real issue is AOA. As a student, AOA was never drilled into my head. In my opinion, we are teaching our students the wrong way.
Don Alexander
 
It Can Happen to You, Too

A couple of personal experiences. A few weeks ago I was making an base-to-final approach to the grass strip where I have made hundreds of landings, in my C150 in which I have hundreds of hours. There were no ATC distractions; the crosswind was on my tail. Head mostly outside looking for traffic and gauging the approach, I glanced inside to discover that the ball had escaped the center and I was in a classic base-to-final skidding turn. Stepping on the ball, followed by a coordinated turn, solved the problem, but it sure got my attention.

Then I took the C150 to Oshkosh, and flew the Ripon-Fiske VFR approach to a right base for18R, keeping my speed up and staying high to cross 27. The controller called my leading traffic on a LEFT base to 18R (probably someone giving demo rides) and cleared me to land on the pink dot. After a few seconds to locate the traffic in front, I was high and too fast for flaps. I lost the altitude and speed with a big long slip, but the approach and landing were certainly outside the norm for me.

Now, if the skidding turn had been combined with the the high-activity approach and my speed had been slow and I was looking outside for traffic..... :(

Joe Lofton
RV-9A Wings
 
JoeLofton said:
Now, if the skidding turn had been combined with the the high-activity approach and my speed had been slow and I was looking outside for traffic..... :(

Joe Lofton
RV-9A Wings
Click to expand...

Excellent post. While something like this is less likely at your home airport and normal workload, throw in an unfamiliar airport, a controller trying to fit you in with many different aircraft on a couple different runways, looking for the traffic etc. etc. and a pilot can get busy. This slows down the normal scan of ASI and ball can cause a pilot to do things he/she might not normally do. Multiple errors and a chain of events usually cause the accident, not just one.

If Chuck Yeager can groundloop a T6 with all his skills and experience, any of us could have an accident.
 
Not true

Jekyll,
Several years ago a highly experienced King Air pilot was in a hurry to get in and land at Sandersville, Ga. after it had been fogged in 'til 10:00 A.M.
He came in from the south onto base and turned hard left on a close in final and BAM, stalled near the threshold with five aboard! It immediately caught fire as it skidded in a 180 degree turn and all managed to bail out although with a few severe back injuries. Experienced pilots DO stall and make other mistakes as well,
 
David-aviator said:
The prime reason is lack of proficiency. Real pilots who fly regularly do not unintentionally stall out in the traffic pattern or anywhere else.
Click to expand...
I want to say here that I love flying. I also want to emphasize that I greatly respect the pilots that I have come to call my friends. I value their input with respect and reverence whenever I am talking with one who has a great amount of experience to offer in his advice. However, a statement that starts with "Real pilots . . ." just makes my hair stand on end. What exactly is a "Real Pilot"? Is that opposite of a "Fake Pilot"? If so what constitutes a "Real Pilot", or for that matter, what constitues a "Fake Pilot"?

If this statement implies that experienced pilots don't get themselves into bad situations unexpectedly, then that is definetly looking at the world with those great big EGO glasses that so many of us pilots think we deserve to wear because we are such special people. Why do we as pilots think of ourselves in such high regard that we have the audacity to think that our behavior is above reproach or that we will never allow ourselves to be in such a compromising situation? Come on now! Really??

I can just about guarantee that none of us reading these posts has, or ever will have, logged the hours that Scott Crossfield had logged in his lifetime. I can also just about bet you everything I own, with no risk of loosing it, that when all is said and done, his death was not attributable to his plane developing a mind of its own and deciding to fly itself into a monsterous thunderstorm just to see if it could be done. If there was an incident that shows that a "Real Pilot" can find himself in unexpected flight conditions this is it.

I whole heartedly agree that all pilots should be continually practicing in order to be safer pilots. However, to make such disrespectful statements such as this just serves to alienate us from those who already see us as self-righteous and pompous A*******. These statements further prove what I have personally felt every since I first learned to fly. That being the fact that we, as pilots, always look very ugly to others when we are wearing those hideous EGO glasses!
 
RVbySDI said:
That being the fact that we, as pilots, always look very ugly to others when we are wearing those hideous EGO glasses!
Click to expand...
You could be right, RVbySDI...but dammit I AM GOOD! I even SMELL good! :D

A little ego is a healthy thing. Lack of confidence will get you killed as quickly as overconfidence. It's all about balance, grasshoppa.

Everyone likes a nice guy, but it's hard to respect someone that kisses your ***, so a measure of ego and confidence are key. Again...balance.

Dave
 
mdredmond said:
Larry, you got that right. A steep turn is a steep turn whether you're 500 feet up or 5000. Nothing fundamentally wrong with a coordinated steep turn...
Click to expand...
Nothing at all! However, the definition of steep turn seems to be somewhat subjective :(

For most private pilots it seems to be about 30 degrees, in spite of that check ride they took and had to demonstrate 45 degrees.

For commercial pilots, it's 50 +- 5 on the checkride, not sure I've paid enough attention to them to see what they really do after that.

For glider pilots, it's 60 degrees. By definition, 45 degress is a medium turn. Most spend all of their time between 45 and 60 degrees, at rediculously low airspeeds, and often in congested airspace (thermals).

Coordinated flight is stressed from their first lesson, and stalls and stall recovery on virtually every flight thereafter. And since it's fairly common to solo them at 14 years old, we like to make sure they have it down fairly well!

And finding any kind of on-purpose stall warning device on a glider is next to impossible, especially on trainers! But there are plenty of warnings:

Low speed
Stick is back
Controls mushy
Nose high attitude
Buffeting
Gets a little quieter (OK, works well in a glider!)

There's probably a few more.......

But it really does come down to practice...... even good pilots have bad days, but when the reaction is instinctive rather than a response to a surprise.......
 
David Johnson said:
a measure of ego and confidence are key. Again...balance.
Click to expand...
Dave, I whole heartedly agree that balance is the key. It is just that too often our self confidence in our abilities as pilots tends to overshadow the humility part of the equation that keeps the ego in check and that leads to a healthy level of confidence. When this occurs our ego will overrule any balance we had and our behavior then borders on arrogance instead of confidence.

Self Confidence + Humility = Confidence
Self Confidence + Egotism = Arrogance

In my opinion then, the following can be said about pilots who display these two brands of behavior:

Competence + Confidence ---> Safer Pilot
Competence + Arrogance ---> Dangerous Pilot

I believe this notion was behind the statement in the infamous movie Top Gun when Ice told Maverick "I think you are a great pilot but you are dangerous!" :D
 
RVbySDI said:
Competence + Arrogance ---> Dangerous Pilot
Click to expand...
I think this is a common sentiment, but in my opinion it is wrong. By many accounts, Chuck Yeager is an arrogant arse, but no one would argue that he is a competent and safe pilot. I'd fly with him over a humble, generous guy that can't keep the ball centered any day, and not just because he's famous. He's a heck of a pilot.

The point is that arrogance has very little correlation to a person's competence. Competence must be ascertained through other, more objective means. Sorta like the old adage about not judging a book by its cover.

Respectfully,
Dave
 
Last edited:
IMO ego does not have much of a place in the cockpit, even for fighter pilots. Ability, good decision making and the ability to take and give out constructive flying advice are far more important attributes.

I've flown with some humble, quiet types who are excellent pilots and safe pilots and I've flown with overconfident, complacent types who scare me irregardless of their stick and rudder skills. Your skills will not save you if your poor decision making puts you in a corner with no options.

Read, learn, retain and practice.

It is interesting that overconfidence in one's ability can be overcome by a hard lesson (if it's not fatal). Bob Hoover (Spitfire), famous night fighter ace Bob Braham (Mosquito)and famous Free French ace, Pierre Clostermann (Tempest) were all shot down by German FW190 pilots whom they thought they easily had the measure of... Fortunately all survived to be humbled.

If you don't learn something on every flight, no matter what your experience level is, you are not paying attention.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.