Jerry Cochran

Jerry Cochran

Well Known Member
Seems there is a bit of light at the end of the tunnel for Oregon Mogas users. HB3177 proposes to remove Ethanol from 91 octane mogas, if the Guv signs it, that is. The bill is here:

http://www.leg.state.or.us/09reg/measpdf/hb3100.dir/hb3177.intro.pdf

Seems boaters, classic car folks, hot rodders, as well as our own efforts have made a diff. So Oregon pilots, please call or email your legislators or Guv Kulongoski and support passage of HB3177 whether you use mogas or not.

Thanks,

Jerry Cochran
 
HB 3177 as written won't do any good.

First, it just allows them to sell premium without ethanol.

Refiners now find it is more profitable to make premium using ethanol and if the bill just "allows" them to not have ethanol, they will still use it.

Mid grade is made by blending regular and premium at the pump & they didn't change the requirement for mid grade. So to sell premium without ethanol, they would need a dedicated tank pumping just ethanol free premium. What's a tank run? About $100K.

So they didn't do what is necessary to make this work by requiring that premium have zero ethanol and allowing the ethanol spec for mid grade to go to 5%.

Lastly, Senator Dingfelder, who carried the ball on the original ethanol requirement when she was in the house, chairs the Senate Environment and Natural Resources Committee. She didn't even give 2 previous bills a hearing and she won't this one either.

This is just another legislative con job. In reality they didn't do a thing.
 
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RScott said:
Won't do any good. ...
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Let's keep our fingers crossed!

I recently saw a gas station in Tennessee that was advertising Ethanol free gas. Apparently people are starting to find out ethanol isn't the panacea everyone thought it was.
 
RScott said:
Won't do any good.

First, it just allows them to sell premium without ethanol.

Refiners now find it is more profitable to make premium using ethanol and if the bill just "allows" them to not have ethanol, they will still use it.

Mid grade is made by blending regular and premium at the pump & they didn't change the requirement for mid grade. So to sell premium without ethanol, they would need a dedicated tank pumping just ethanol free premium. What's a tank run? About $100K.

So they didn't do what is necessary to make this work by requiring that premium have zero ethanol and allowing the ethanol spec for mid grade to go to 5%.

Lastly, Senator Dingfelder, who carried the ball on the original ethanol requirement when she was in the house, chairs the Senate Environment and Natural Resources Committee. She didn't even give 2 previous bills a hearing and she won't this one either.

This is just another legislative con job. In reality they didn't do a thing.
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I've seen some pretty ineffective bills by people that oppose my freedoms, and I think, that won't do much. But they never quit, they come back with different standards, a little improvement here or there(in their eyes) and at some point it makes a difference.

meanwhile, when we have a chance to back something, inevitably 1/3 of the group will say "its not a good enough bill" or "it won't do anything", while another group will say "but what about my pet project?" and won't do anything unless they get a quid pro quo at the same time as the bill we want to pass.

incrementalism, it's what works in the long run with legislation. get with the program;). Or at least don't be negative in public

ps we have a local red carpet gas station (shell) that has ethanol free at the pump. only they won't pump it into a vehicle, it goes in containers only. you put the gas from the container into whatever you want :). more support for 0e premium the better.
 
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Wod be nice but

I would be amazed if Comrade Ted signs it...Were saving the planet don't ya know ..More like paying backhanders to ethanol producers!

Frank
Corvallis Oregon
 
Negative? Well, Dean Billings (especially him), Dennis Douglas & I have been working on the ethanol mandate since the original bill was passed 2 years ago. We have written letters, we have researched the problems, we produced a writeup that EAA has made available to all who are interested, we have publicized the situation among pilots and most importantly we testified at legislative hearings.

Last year when we testified, the committee heard from fellow legislators first, then from professional lobbyists (all from ethanol producers), then from the public. But there was a catch. When the public was invited to testify, half the committee members got up and walked out.

So if I am a little negative, I think I have justification. Any real change has to get approval from both Dingfelder and the governor, both of whom love ethanol. And this bill, even if it gets passed them, changes nothing. Gas stations that have a tank to dedicate to ethanol free gas have generally already done so and you can see how few offer it. This is another legislative con job, nothing more.

Besides the fix being in, the thing that wrankles me is that premium and mid grade only constitute about 20% of the market. With all the concerns about the social costs and questionable benefits of ethanol, they are still helping the ethanol producers by insuring they have that 20% of the market. These producers have gotten millions of dollars of subsidies in Oregon, several have filed bankruptcy, and the lawmakers still believe in them. Or maybe they owe them something. You decide.
 
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N941WR said:
I recently saw a gas station in Tennessee that was advertising Ethanol free gas.
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Do you recall where that gas station is? The one I'd been going to that had ethanol free gas has now switched over to the adulterated stuff. I dislike putting that junk in my car, and if I can avoid it, will do so, even if it's a bit of a drive to get EtOH free fuel.

-- Chris
 
Lebanon, OR S30

As a reminder, has been selling non-adultered 91 oct mogas for awhile now and needs our support. Currently 2.48/gal.

Jerry
 
Danny7 said:
>...

incrementalism, it's what works in the long run with legislation. get with the program;). Or at least don't be negative in public
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It has nothing to do with being "negative in public". This bill isn't incrementalism, it actually does nothing just as Richard pointed out. Read the bill. They added a couple of words to SB-1079 that change nothing, except that now those SB-1079 dealers who have E0 can put it in cars. That is all the bill does, which is a joke, because there is no penalty for putting premium unleaded ethanol free gasoline in a non SB-1079 application. Note that you can still only pump ethanol free regular gasoline in exempt applications???

ps we have a local red carpet gas station (shell) that has ethanol free at the pump. only they won't pump it into a vehicle, it goes in containers only. you put the gas from the container into whatever you want :). more support for 0e premium the better.
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The only reason that the Red Carpet station in Bend is pumping E0 premium at all is because they had a tank for off road diesel. That station is one of the few stations that has four tanks, one for regular, one for premium, one for diesel and now one for premium E0. There are very few stations built like that. That station blends premium and unleaded E10 to make mid-grade E10. If they didn't have that one extra tank and pump they would not be selling any E0 gasoline today, under SB-1079 or HB-3177. And I have seen Red Carpet pump the E0 premium into cars. I have a picture of them pumping E0 gasoline into a 1958 Ford station wagon, which is not one of the exempt classes, since it is not an antique car. They will also pump it into motorcycles which are not exempt. There is no ORS to cite anyone under for SB-1079.

Besides, this whole thread misses the bigger point. Clear 91 AKI gasoline is going to disappear altogether. When Washington finishes the conversion to all E10, the refineries in Washington will quit making 91 AKI gasoline, they will only be making 88-89 AKI BOB for blending with 10+% ethanol. It is already difficult to get 91 AKI gasoline at Lebanon State Airport and Larry Knox has been warned by Carson Oil that it might disappear at any time, since it no longer comes down the Olympic pipeline from Washington, it comes by sea or rail. Also the distributor that supplies Red Carpet has told me that they will only offer it as long as they can find it, no guarantee. And the + after 10 above is not a misprint. The EPA is being asked by the ethanol industry to raise the blending limit for gasoline for non flex-fuel vehicles to 15% and Minnesota wants 20%, so if you like E10, your gonna love E15.

The only way to guarantee that 91 AKI unleaded gasoline will be available in the future is to pass a state law prohibiting the blending of ethanol in premium unleaded. Montana did it in their mandatory E10 law, which unfortunately never triggered and now probably never will.
 
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N1593Y said:
The only way to guarantee that 91 AKI unleaded gasoline will be available in the future is to pass a state law prohibiting the blending of ethanol in premium unleaded. Montana did it in their mandatory E10 law, which unfortunately never triggered and now probably never will.
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so its all or nothing, eh? Well, i can tell you how long you will have to wait for that.

A LONG TIME.

I'll say it again- there are several categories of legislature law where very stupid laws have been passed. they don't really do anything. but the people pushing for a specific goal like them, they continue to "discuss" things with the legislature critters, every year. eventually they start getting laws passed that have significant progress to their goals.

look up anything with the HSUS and animal "welfare/ rights" laws, gun laws, child protection laws, most any anti freedom agenda. they all want a radical goal, and are happy to get anything passed they can, even if it in essence does nothing this year. it gets them "relationships" with congress critters, they get to keep chipping away, eventually they get some of their goals knocked off.

do we build planes a wing in a day? no, its a little part here, a little part there, a row of rivets tonight, some primer tomorrow, shaping parts yesterday. Like Wally says, walk 2-4 miles a day, give it a couple years and you'll have walked across the United States and back.

we probably need paid lobbyist. I know the recreational gold mining "industry" in norcal has a very good one, and they are fighting harder laws than we are.

there should also be an Oregon pilots association, to fight for things like this and anything else specific to oregon and aviation.

I'll get right on an OPA, in my abundant spare time ;):rolleyes:
 
Danny7 said:
so its all or nothing, eh? Well, i can tell you how long you will have to wait for that.

A LONG TIME.
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Yes, because we have nothing. We had nothing with SB-1079. We will still have nothing with HB-3177. I'm actually waiting for the incremental legislation that you espouse.

there should also be an Oregon pilots association, to fight for things like this and anything else specific to oregon and aviation.

I'll get right on an OPA, in my abundant spare time ;):rolleyes:
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Don't worry, you won't have to waste any of your precious spare time. There is already an OPA. http://www.oregonpilot.org/ Why don't you join us. There is even an OPA chapter in Bend, just like there is an EAA chapter in Bend. http://co-opa.com/

OPA testified at the public hearings for the ethanol laws. OPA has a position on ethanol free premium gasoline for aviation use: http://e0pc.com/forum/index.php?topic=47.0 I helped them write it. I testified at the public hearings that HB-3177 would do nothing unless it was mandatory, so did OPA.

Regards -- Dean Billing / Sisters, OR / EAA 47719 / Founding member EAA Chapter 1345 Bend, OR / OPA member
 
eh, i found the OPA, i'll go join and see what they say about ethanol

http://www.oregonpilot.org/chapters/centraloregon.html

Oh, hi dean, yeah thanks for the links, i was looking them up already. I'm already an eaa member, and a chapter member. i've heard you talk at the meetings.

HB 3177 doesn't have to do anything. it can be a touchy feely bill, but you just keep coming back.

If you drill out a 1/8 hole on an RV in a non planned spot, doesn't mean you junk the whole part. just keep working on it. think of it as a lightning hole, a drain hole, whatever.
 
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Danny7 said:
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HB 3177 doesn't have to do anything. it can be a touchy feely bill, but you just keep coming back.
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Not sure why this isn't sinking in. HB-3177 adds a useless feel good component to SB-1079. Anyone can drive up to a premium pump at the practically non-existent SB-1079 sources and fill their tank. The meaningless label on the tank that says who can buy the gas at the Bend gas station can be removed. But the fact is that the product, ethanol free premium gasoline, will be history soon. There will be nothing to pump. Larry Knox at Lebanon State airport will discontinue mogas sales on the airport. If all of the gasoline is E10 the refineries don't have to make 91 AKI product any more.

And I, for one will not "just keep coming back." I'm done with this fight if we can't get HB-3177 to actually do something, because nobody cares and there won't be anything to fight for. The best we can do is sit around and wait until this ethanol debacle implodes.

I have gone round and round with EAA and AOPA and they don't get it. I am no longer and AOPA member, soon I will be a former EAA member. I sold my airplane and the only thing I am contemplating is an ultralight, maybe. I'm going to die laughing when TEL isn't available anymore, then all of the pilots that wondered what the big deal was with mogas availability will know what it is like to lose the fuel that your airplane needs.

The three most important things in aviation are Airplanes, Fuel, Airports. Airplanes are in abundance and the aviation alphabet groups go gaga over them and get lots of advertising income from the manufacturers. Every pilot fights for their airport because they know they must, and if you want, you can grade your own strip. Nobody cares a whit about fuel, they just expect the FAA or someone else will make sure there is "avgas" available and the aviation alphabet groups ignore it and wait for someone else to take care of it, like Swift Fuels. Kind of stupid when there is an approved aviation gasoline available today that would work in 70% or our TC aircraft and 100% of LSA, but we will watch it disappear without a peep.
 
Last year I was able to buy ethanol free gas at two stations near Culver Oregon until September. It was the staions owners option to add ethanol. Also didn't the EPA advise last week ethanol was an inefficient alternative?
 
agough277 said:
Last year I was able to buy ethanol free gas at two stations near Culver Oregon until September. It was the staions owners option to add ethanol. Also didn't the EPA advise last week ethanol was an inefficient alternative?
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It was never the station owners option to add ethanol in Oregon. Oregon passed a mandatory E10 law in 2007 that was implemented in 2008.

EPA may have said something about corn ethanol inefficiency but the reality is that there is a waiver request before EPA to raise the blending limit of 10% for non flex-fuel cars to 15% and it has a good chance of passing considering who is pushing it, and that the Obama administration endorses it, especially the Secretary of Agriculture, Tom Vilsak, ex governor of Iowa. EPA must approve it or deny it by 1 December 2009. You can comment on it until 21 May 2009. (See www.e0pc.com)

Actually all ethanol blending is now being driven by the unintended consequences of the federal RFS mandate in EISA 2007. Information here: www.e0pc.com. Makes no difference what Oregon or any state wants, unless the state passes a law to prohibit the blending of ethanol in premium unleaded.
 
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