[Vince Koehn]

Anybody have input on whether it is worth the upgrade from the older style Hartzell to the newer "blended airfoil" Hartzell prop?

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Its only money

Anybody have input on whether it is worth the upgrade from the older style Hartzell to the newer "blended airfoil" Hartzell prop?

Thats a good one. If your old prop is working you should stick with it in my opinion, at least to overhaul. The BA prop is AD free and does give about 3.5 mph more top speed. It's a better prop and I want one as well. You know the price. They just went up.

The thumbnail below has Van's prop test/fly-off; the old and BA Hartzell are top two.



The old Hartzell is no slouch speed wise, its as fast or faster than all the other fancy composite props. It is the BA prop is just that much better. Also if you are running electronic ignition than the BA prop has no "range" of stay out RPM's. In fact with a stock engine, the BA prop has no restrictions. The old Hartzell aways had restrictions on the 360 lyc, EI or not.

Now depending on how old your old HC-C2YK/F7666 is you may be in good shape. If its a late model its really a great prop and the AD's are limited to non existent. (If your serial number has an "A" at the end you are good.) Sure the BA is better (3 mph) but than is that really critical to you?

Now the bad news: If your prop is an older version (like mine), than you will have more inspections. The latest and greatest inspection AD (which sucks), as you may know, is the eddy current inspection on the hub every 100 hours. The good news is it is done on the plane. Cost? I don't know yet but it could be $100 or more. [update I called $150-$250]. Either way you need someone to do it. I don't have eddy current inspection equip. If you did have access you could do it your self with a little training. Basically you run the probe over the area and the equip says there is a crack, beep. You can do what your want on your experimental, including not doing the inspection or extending. You have to remember they are covering some props that have been hanging off a plane, out side, on the coast for decades.

For the record, as an experimental you do NOT even have to comply with AD's, because that FAR chapter that covers AD's does not apply to experimentals. I'm not advising but stating fact. You sign off the condition inspection right. Now insurance and liability are a whole new ball game. If you do lots of aerobatics I would take more care. I have the same prop.

Bottom line the new prop is almost $6,000 and the old prop could be worth $2,000 to $4,000 (total wild guess). I have no idea condition or hours or what but that is a swag for a used prop. If its new and late model version, certifiable (usable on a Piper Arrow or Mooney) it could be worth more.

If it was not for the 100 hr inspection I would not think about it until the prop or engine needed overhauling. However the sooner you buy, its more likely you will get more for you old prop and the price may go up on the BA. YOUR CHOICE!

 

[db8]

Two different BF props

Hartzell has two blended airfoil props now. One is for a 180 HP parallel valve engine, and the other one is for a higher hp engine (angle valve or pumped up parallel valve). I have chatted with Hatzell's technical support staff and a pumped up parallel valve that generates more than 180 HP falls in a grey area -- ie, I am going with 9:1 pistons, have the Superior cold air induction sump (that will be replaced in Sept?), dual electronic ignition, fuel injection --so I will probably have something like 188-190 HP? Kevin got back with me after talking with his tech guy, and they recommended the higher hp BF prop for my application. I am on the road now, so I don't have the blade number.

Whatever the case may be, I would consider this, do the research, and come up with the best one of the two if a person is going with the BF Hartzell (like I am). Dave

 

[robertahegy]

All I can say is I love my BA Hartzell. Smooth and quiet. 74" on an 0-360 A1A.

Roberta

 

[Rutus]

BA Restrictions?

George, I have the BA on a stock O-360-A1A and I'm pretty sure it DOES still have some restrictions: (1) exceed 2600 RPM only for takeoff, and (2) no continuous operation above 22" MP while below 2350 RPM. That's the way I placarded my panel, and I'm sure I took those details straight from the Hartzell paperwork that came with the prop.

It is the only prop I've used on the RV-6, so I can't compare with others, but it does have great all-around performance, and the restrictions noted above are very easy to live with.

John

 

[dan]

You guys need to talk in terms of 7496, 7497, etc. There are differences.

 

[robertahegy]

74 is the diameter of the prop assembly in inches. I do not know what the 96 or 97 stand for. My particular prop for my 0-360 A1A (on my 7A) is:

HC-C2YR-1BF/F7496

Roberta

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Yes Rutus, but not all

George, I have the BA on a stock O-360-A1A and I'm pretty sure it DOES still have some restrictions: (1) exceed 2600 RPM only for takeoff, and (2) no continuous operation above 22" MP while below 2350 RPM. That's the way I placarded my panel, and I'm sure I took those details straight from the Hartzell paperwork that came with the prop.

It is the only prop I've used on the RV-6, so I can't compare with others, but it does have great all-around performance, and the restrictions noted above are very easy to live with.

John

Good point and absolutly right if you have the 7496 "BA" blade but not the 7497 "BA" blade. The 7497 "BA" says "placard none" (limits/restrictions) on the O-360-A1A.

Two things: The key word was "range" of restricted RPM. The old prop had the avoid 2000-2250 rpm "range", yours does not. You just have basically two, single-point limits, 2600 rpm & 2350 rpm@22 MP, that does not affect normal or typical operations. (I guess 2600-2700 rpm is a t/o range?) That's what I meant, but you are right. However there are combo's with no restrictions.

Restrictions vary with engine manufacture (Lyc/ECI v. Superior) and ignition. When the "BA is mounted is on a Superior 360, it has "placard none", limitations or restrictions (see the matrix from Hartzell below). The "placard none" (restriction) Superior with the "BS" blades (third row, third column). The Lyc you have say does have a placard, as you said (first row, third column). Notice, for your engine if you go to the 7497 "BA", there's no placard, first row, fourth column.

Also notice with the 7496 "BA" blade its the same placard stock or with one Lightspeed on the Lyc O-360-A1A. That tells me they might be a little conservative w/ a mag fired engine.

 

[rocketbob]

I have an excel spreadsheet that an engineer I know at Hartzell sent me which shows a 1% difference in efficiency between the 8475D-4 blades I have for my Rocket and the 8068D BA blades used on the RV-10. Likely the speed difference is very small, if you use these two blades as a reference.

Regards,
Bob Japundza
RV-6 flying F1 under const.

 

[andymeyer]

I talked with Hartzell yesterday... I've got the hub with the AD sitting on my garage floor right now - got it cheap so I'm not complaining.
Walt at Hartzell was extremely helpful and suggested that I order a new prop - I know - helping me spend my money to the tune of $10781 for a HC-F2YR-1F with the F7666A-4 blades... Good deal is that when I sent them my old prop, they will turn it into aluminum soda cans for me, and send me a check for 40% of the price I paid for my new prop - Over $4,000. Catch is that this deal runs out in September. They are trying to get the old hubs off of the street by offering this deal. Just think, I could be sitting in my RV drinking from my old prop.

Hope this helps...

Andy

 

[mburch]

Hartzell has two blended airfoil props now. One is for a 180 HP parallel valve engine, and the other one is for a higher hp engine (angle valve or pumped up parallel valve). I have chatted with Hatzell's technical support staff and a pumped up parallel valve that generates more than 180 HP falls in a grey area -- ie, I am going with 9:1 pistons, have the Superior cold air induction sump (that will be replaced in Sept?), dual electronic ignition, fuel injection --so I will probably have something like 188-190 HP? Kevin got back with me after talking with his tech guy, and they recommended the higher hp BF prop for my application.

Interesting... did they happen to mention if there would be any possible disadvantages to using the 7497 (BA blade for 200HP) on a 180++ engine? I have a mildly pumped up 180HP parallel valve engine so this is of great interest to me.

mcb (will eventually call Hartzell myself when closer to buying a prop)

 

[osxuser]

I talked with Hartzell yesterday... I've got the hub with the AD sitting on my garage floor right now - got it cheap so I'm not complaining.
Walt at Hartzell was extremely helpful and suggested that I order a new prop - I know - helping me spend my money to the tune of $10781 for a HC-F2YR-1F with the F7666A-4 blades... Good deal is that when I sent them my old prop, they will turn it into aluminum soda cans for me, and send me a check for 40% of the price I paid for my new prop - Over $4,000. Catch is that this deal runs out in September. They are trying to get the old hubs off of the street by offering this deal. Just think, I could be sitting in my RV drinking from my old prop.

Hope this helps...

Andy

First off, screw that. These compact hub props AREN'T breaking all the time and warrenting this AD. This is really a SHOTGUN ad when in comes down to it. People that have problems with cracking are the aerobatic pilots, which there is already another AD out for, and people that don't get their props serviced at the recommended intervals (6 years or 2000 hours). If you are building an experimental and already have the prop, KEEP IT! Don't let hartzell taken any more of your money. Have the inspection done, and if no cracks turn up, fly with the thing. Since you have an experimental, there is NO requirement to comply with this AD. While I don't suggest ignoring it completely, I feel that every 100hrs is excessive. If you flew your airplane to a prop shop once a year and had this $100 inspection done, wouldn't that be better than spending another $6K on a new prop.

I know every angle that you can play with Hartzell on this one because I've been through them all for my Dad's Cardinal. We ended up going with a 3-blade, and keeping our 2-blade. It's perfectly airworthy still. Cheapest option is a simple hub swap with Hartzell. Condition of you blades should be taken into account with this. Ours are most likely going to be below specs after the next overhaul, so we needed a whole new prop.

Original replacment
HC-C2YK-1BF/F7666 = $5700 from Hartzell after AD discount
New spinner (which we need) =$600

Total Cost $6300

3-blade
HC-C3YK-1BF/7480 = $7600 From Harztell after A&P discount, Comes with spinner
Rebate from sending on old prop <$900>

Total Cost $6700

For us the 3-blade was the better deal. If you are building an RV, the $5700 you will pay Hartzell for a replacment prop is the same as you would pay Vans for a new one. The difference is that VANS doesn't want your OLD one back, Hartzell does. Doens't seem like hartzells doing there customers any favors now does it?

I've been on the phone MANY times with Hartzell over this issue, and I'm convinced this AD is not warrented, but it helps me out because when this deal at Hartzell is over, whoever is stuck with the old hub with the 100hour inspections are going to have their props for sale REALLY cheap, which means I'll have a source for one if my Dad sells his before then.

He will be asking for $2500 for his once the 3-blade is mounted. Which should be next week...

 

[rocketbob]

My prop shop told me they've never seen a cracked hub when the grease zerk holes were chamfered. Apparently the original holes were not chamfered. Another thing they told me is that the failure mode is not sudden, a crack will appear and the prop will spit grease. I would without hesitation use an old hub provided it was eddy current inspected and the zerk holes were properly chamfered. I would also remove any factory markings on the hub and blade shanks and mark it as experimental. That way nobody can question whether or not AD's apply.

Regards,
Bob Japundza
RV-6 flying F1 under const.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

osxuser & rocketbob

You are right, the old C2YK is a great hub and been around since the late 60's, going through several minor changes, but basically its a good hub, especially the last version, the "A" hub since about year 2000 I think.

This same hub is used on 6-cyl 260-300 hp Ag planes to hardcore Pitts acro. Those are the ones that had issues. Cruising around in a RV and doing occasional loops and rolls is not going to be the same prop stress as those planes.

Also its all about Hartzell getting more control and data on OLD props. Once any model has been out for decades, you will have those Ramp-Queen's sitting outside getting corrosion pits which is the cause of most problems. These extra inspections often don't catch cracks but corrosion, which is a no-go. That is why Hartzell put their recommend 5-year limit on some prop OH's, lawyers and to find corrosion. If your prop is dry and happy in a hanger in Phoenix, corrosion is not an issue.

There is no reason the C2YK can't go on a RV with some common sense. You are right about the AD. You could go thru the ID removal but you still are not going to be subject to the AD. It would be perfectly fine to justify not doing the AD based on, total hours, age, type of operation and care, verses Hartzells shotgun AD inspection for all props.

The "BA" blade and new hub is great, but the C2YK is still viable. I talked to some folks in the prop overhaul industry, and got some advice like you all mentioned. Consider an inspection eddy current inspection down the road at much greater inspection periods. Also Eddy current is not going to catch everything any way. It's kind of a warm fuzzy for Hartzell. Lots of certified drivers will "miss" the inspection. If anything happens, its not Hartzell's liability.