zkvii

Well Known Member
Hi,

We are just starting the flight testing and our current problem / concern is oil temps. We have the original VANs NDM 20002A oil cooler, which seems marginal to say the least for 180+hp engines. :rolleyes:

Obviously a SW 8406R is an easy option, but first I'm trying to understand a bit more about the background / theory - I only want to re-work this once.....

Questions:

For an IO-360-A1-A style engine, what is the approx oil flow through the engine at cruise (if it makes a difference take a nominal 70 psig).

Any ideas on the air mass flow through a traditional #4 baffle mounted cooler?

Roughly how much BTU/min transfer should we be aiming at for a 85F day, 200 hp output with CHTs at 420F.

Finally - for anybody that has actually DONE a change - can you detail before / after models and temps.

Thanks,

Carl
 
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Be Cool!

I am reluctant to talk about oil cooler; last time I did someone got real mad at me. But let me help you with some good info.

First here are the Stewert Warner Oil cooler data. Check the charts out for

http://www.oilcoolers.com/LCHX Specifications.pdf
- Heat transfer (Verses) Air Side Mass flow (for various oil flows)
- Air Pressure Drop (Verses) Air Side Mass flow

For Aero-Classic go here for their data (scroll down)
http://www.canadianaeromanufacturing.com/

Aero-Classic also did a report and published it, testing other coolers; I took the SW data and superimposed it onto their graph, which took some unit conversions. SW heat rejection chart is verses airflow rate, Aero-Classic is verses pressure drop.

aeroscomparisonoiltest3iz8.jpg



Now how much air do you have? From the well known NASA report the cooling data (from Piper) for Lyc 540's in a Piper Apache twin (there test plane) is below. I did some unit conversions. Of course we don't have 250HP> We also don't want to fly around with 450F CHT's either. However this is a good graph showing the kind of cooling you need. For an RV we need at least 3" to 9" H2O pressure drop. At 200 mph we have a total RAM of 19.26" H20 @ SL. This is where leaks and efficiency of your cowls intake and exit come in. If everything is great you might 70% at the aft baffle, or if you have leaks and bad mojo, maybe 35% (why planes run hot). The key is getting that air (more pressure than flow, we have plenty flow we want pressure) and NOT wasting it. On a HOT 100F day in a climb when Ram (free air outside the cowl) is only 7" H20 and you need 3" or 4" H2O pressure drop across the cylinders (and cooler), you see you better have full efficiency and no waste. The big insight I can make about the SW cooler's, is its DESIGNED and optimized to operate efficiently where our plane operates. In other words its a good fit or match. A cooler can advertise great heat rejection, but if you don't operate at those Delta P's and Flows, it does less good.

reqcooling2be0.jpg


Now the big debate that gets people ruffled is mounting the cooler on the baffle v. ducting. Some say you can't remote mount and get good cooling. I respectfully disagree. Just look at the front gross area of a typical oil cooler "grill". It's about 20-21 in-sq. A 4" round duct is about 12 in-sq, 60% of the gross cooler frontal area. Of course net area is less with fins and tubes, which just happens to be close to 60% of gross area. Any duct with less area less is going to choke the air a little. May be you can get away with 3.75" or 3.5" dia duct. Of course cutting a 4x4 square in the baffle works, but a big heavy cooler with oil in it, hoses hanging off it, can crack the thin alum baffle from vibs. Yes you get good air to the cooler, no debate, but its shoved up against the fins of #4 cylinder, which is not perfect. Most find, even if they mount hard to the baffle, a short square plenum, moving the cooler away from the cyl fins, angling it down slightly, improves cooling (as shown in ECI's installation manual). If you are clever, you can make that short square duct with a soft materal to isolate vibrations from the cooler (mounted on the cooler to the engine mount). Wet-suit material (neoprene) works well.

From ECI Titan EXP engine (320 & 360) engine installation manual:

"If your engine installation requires the large oil cooler, ECi
and Van’s recommend that the cooler NOT be mounded on the
engine baffling because of size and weight considerations."​

I don't care how folks mount their cooler, but if you do use a short SCAT duct, shoot for one larger than 3" (7 in-sq), even 3.5". For a 150/160HP in moderate climates 3" works ok. There are many threads on how to make a good remote cooler installations, I won't repeat again, but if you can't make you remote cooler fit, than I'm very sorry. If you need help write me. I'm just stating from an engineering stand point a cooler like the 8406R needs about 12 in-sq duct. If anyone is offended by that or the data above, I'm sorry.

Keep in mind a 3.5" (9.6 in-sq) duct is 36% larger than a 3" one, so if a 4" does not fit for you...... sorry. I never said 4" would be easy, but it has been done. Just be aware, before you curse me, of the shelf 3.5" flanges are not avaiable, from what I've seen, so you have to make them. You WANT max oil cooling efficiency & cooling, you have to work a little harder. :D

A few comments about FLEX ducts or SCAT losses (or lack of loss). Its true any duct has loss, longer, smaller, rough inner surface, higher flow rates, bends, all add loss. The max flow we could see through a cooler is 30-40 lbs/min (400-520 CFM). Typically we are at 20 lbs/min or 260 CFM. The loss for a 4" duct is 0.07 in-H20 per-foot, assume 2 feet, 0.14" H20. That is not much. A 3" duct, 2' long, same 260 CFM, has 0.54" H20 pressure loss. 3" dia has 4 times as much loss as the 4" dia. My point a larger 4" duct is very efficient.

A cooler on the baffle has no duct pe se, but its not totally efficient, when its blocked half blocked by the cylinder. Having a plenum leading to the cooler is a good thing. I have no dog in the fight except my pet peeve, which is 3" SCAT is too small for most 180HP and up applications. Square ducts are fine BTW, and if the inner surface is smooth, its about 30% less loss than a round SCAT tube with the same area. Keep the SCAT short and avoid sharp bends. Last consider the cooler exit. The cooler needs differential pressure. It does not help if you are forcing air into the cooler exit, inadvertently. If your remote cooler is lower in the engine compartment, air flow might across the cooler exit might interfere with flow, so a shield might help.
 
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Hi George,

Thanks for the data info - I've been looking at the oilcoolers.com information - hence my quections ;).

Cowl inlet / outlet are obviously a concern - as you know I have a custom plenum, but CHT seem ball park ok for new engine / hot OAT. My real decision is do I go for a 8604R or the 10599R....

Good to have you back online,

Carl
 
Good on you mate

My real decision is do I go for a 8604R or the 10599R....

Carl
I have the 10599R because that guy left his cowl open at night. :D No I'm kidding but I did buy it used and had Pacific Oil cooler rebuild it. What cooler and temps do you have now?

The 8406R sould be fine. Also with your tight cowl and plenum, I think you will have good luck. Remember when break-in temps are higher, not because of tightness, but due to carbon deposits. It takes about 50 hours to coat the combustion chamber, valves, and piston top with carbon, which acts like a ceramic thermal barrier. This will affect the OT also. You also have FADEC? I think that makes it run a little hotter because its more efficient. Can you turn it off and run a little more rich. That will increase the rate of carbon deposits (which is good on a new engine) and lower temps a little during break-in.

By the way, I've been all over you web site and cut & past a lot of info into my reference files. I'm doing the exact same thing you did, modifying the stock cowl and also making my own plenum. Thanks for the great site, you gave me ideas and saved me time. G
 
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