hammer408

Active Member
I"m looking at installing my OAT I received from Advanced Flight Systems for my 4500. AFS suggests installing in a location where it would not be affected by prop wash or exhaust heat.

So, I'm looking for some expert advice and successful location for the OAT probe. I personally was thinking mounting it under the wing around either the middle or outer inspection cover. That way the probe is outside the prop wash area and nowhere near the exhaust area.

Thoughts, ideas, suggestions appreciated.

Henry
 
Middle or outer inspection plate, right one preferred because the prop rotation tends to push the hot air coming out of the cowl outlet to the left underneath the plane.

Martin Sutter
building and flying RV's since 1988
EAA Technical Counselor
 
...and, excess adiabatic heating

I understand the exhaust stream, but why is prop wash an issue for this probe?

Because the prop wash is usually carrying some of the exhaust stream with it.

Yep, and there's another secondary effect. The prop wash is moving faster relative to the aircraft than the true airspeed of the aircraft. If the OAT probe is located in the prop wash, this would produce an exaggerated ram air heating effect on the probe that we can't compensate for because we don't measure airspeed in the prop wash. This, as well as the exhaust issue that Mel pointed out, would both cause the OAT indication to be higher than true.
 
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Ram air heating at 180kts!? Okay. Man the heat dynamics on the SR-71 must have been a real bitch.

So along the same line, relative to where "we measure airspeed", is an OAT probe inside a faring going to be inaccurate?

And in either case--Ram air heated or encased in a fairing--how inaccurate are we talking, at real world RV speeds?

Thanks for the info--

Joe
 
Ram air heating at 180kts!? Okay. Man the heat dynamics on the SR-71 must have been a real bitch.

So along the same line, relative to where "we measure airspeed", is an OAT probe inside a faring going to be inaccurate?

And in either case--Ram air heated or encased in a fairing--how inaccurate are we talking, at real world RV speeds?

Thanks for the info--

Joe

At 180 ktas thankfully you don't have to worry about melting the leading edges like an SR-71, but yes, the indicated air temp will read high due to ram air heating, on the order of a few degrees. Anyway, that's not a problem as long as the OAT probe is in a location where it experiences the TAS because the EFIS can compensate for the ram air heating since it also knows the TAS (I don't know which EFIS products on the market actually do this, but they easily could, and should).

Putting the OAT probe inside a fairing can pose a different problem. The air under the fairing will be mostly stagnant, so it will take it time to reach the ambient temperature when the ambient temperature changes. This would be most pronounced as the aircraft climbs or descends, and the OAT indications will tend to lag behind. The lag could easily be on the order of minutes depending on the particular installation. An OAT indication that lags by minutes as you unknowingly enter icing conditions... that would be bad.
 
I put mine under the empanage fairing and it is right on.

Here's a picture:


BTW, I have a Dynon, not that the location matters.

From an operational standpoint, in the heat of the day, the OAT will read high when you first get in the plane but as soon as you start your takeoff run enough freash air moves through to there for it to read accurately.

Also, it is protected so it is unlikely to be broken off.
 
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I used the factory pitot tube location for my OAT, since I was mounting a heated pitot/AOA that needs a Gretz mast and has to be mounted in a different location. And yes, I straightened out the wiring before closing it up - this shot was taken in-process... :D

1002011n.jpg
 
Anyway, that's not a problem as long as the OAT probe is in a location where it experiences the TAS because the EFIS can compensate for the ram air heating since it also knows the TAS (I don't know which EFIS products on the market actually do this, but they easily could, and should).



Hmmm. I guess I'm confused. Isn't the TAS derived using the OAT? IOW, an EFIS needs an OAT probe to calculate the TAS, not the other way around. ICE-T and all that.

I guess my point is, for our purposes--at the prevalent speeds and altitudes--other than the exhaust flow (and the propwash/exhaust mix), I don't think it matters one bit if the probe is on the bottom of the wing, in the sidewall NACA scoop, or inside a faring. I've seen flying RVs with all of the above. I'm sure the resultant error is minor.

As for icing conditions...no thanks, not exactly "recreational" for me. And if 2 or 3 degrees makes or breaks it, I've got bigger problems.

Joe
 
Hmmm. I guess I'm confused. Isn't the TAS derived using the OAT? IOW, an EFIS needs an OAT probe to calculate the TAS, not the other way around. ICE-T and all that.

Joe,

Yes, it can be derived that way, but more generally... From the input variables static pressure, pitot pressure, and indicated air temp (what the "OAT" probe actually sees, which includes ram air heating) you can solve jointly for IAS, TAS, and the true ambient OAT. Tedious to do by hand, so they teach pilots only about the simpler relationship of starting with presumed true OAT and IAS and solving for TAS. But the more general solution is fairly easy to do in software, i.e. an air data computer or EFIS, so there's no longer a reason to limit ourselves to the former.

As for icing conditions...no thanks, not exactly "recreational" for me.

I'm with you there. The idea is to stay out of icing, and the OAT is a key indication to help us do exactly that.

And if 2 or 3 degrees makes or breaks it, I've got bigger problems.

The ram air heating effect in the RV speed range (let's say 180 ktas) can account for up to about 4 deg Celsius (7 deg Fahrenheit) of error. But again, that's actually not a problem because the EFIS can compensate it out numerically as long as the probe sees a known airspeed, i.e. the same airspeed as the airplane.

However, other measurement errors caused by locating the probe near other sources of heat, or in direct sunlight, etc. can cause even greater error, are not deterministic, and cannot be numerically compensated out. And likewise for lag error caused by placing the probe in stagnant air. The lag error could easily exceed 10 deg F with a lag on the order of minutes (consider RV climb/descent rates and atmospheric lapse rates).

I guess my point is, for our purposes--at the prevalent speeds and altitudes--other than the exhaust flow (and the propwash/exhaust mix), I don't think it matters one bit if the probe is on the bottom of the wing, in the sidewall NACA scoop, or inside a faring. I've seen flying RVs with all of the above. I'm sure the resultant error is minor.

You're certainly right that lots of folks put the OAT probes in all kinds of places and get away with it. It's not the sort of thing that's likely to get you killed unless you're really cutting your margins too narrow in the first place. However, I would contend that a better question to ask is this: Why would one knowingly and willingly choose a suboptimal installation and accept sloppy instrument readings if it's just as easy to do it right and get accurate readings? That's my take on it anyway.
 
inside tail

i like where bill (N941WR) has located it within the tail... although i will likely use the upper tooling hole. there are several good threads discussing false temperature rise error from the sensor being exposed to the airstream. if the location turns out to be problematic i will relocate it to one of the access panels in the tail.
 
Bill,

Thats not "officially" OAT, rather its IAT (at leasts when the fairing is on). Now the two might be the equal, but I hope this mistake doesn't confuse your Dynon!:D

cheers,
greg