Av8torTom

Well Known Member
I know this has been beaten to death, but what's the current thinking on the safety of the nose wheel design? Anyone know if Van is considering any other changes? Larger nose wheel maybe?
 
nose wheel safety

Tom,
I agree there's been a lot of ink on this, but no real consensus.
I'm a bit nervous about flipping my precious, and having the insurance co. say that I was going too fast over a rough surface with a known tendency for the gear to tuck under etc. and deny my claim!
I've done the mod, keep the tire at 30+ psi cold, and fibreglassed two chunks of 1/8" aluminum into the nose pant as a skid plate for the strut/nut.
Still not entirely comfortable, and will avoid grass until I'm much more proficient.
I think if I was a builder, and had a shop/hangar, I'd be real tempted to install the larger nose wheel/tire/yoke just for a bit more flotation on soft ground at least.
Truth is, some of us aren't 1000-hr. Yeagers, and my RV-9a probably still thinks I'm a student pilot, which isn't far from the truth either. Mistakes in ground handling will be made, and the design is not forgiving in this particular area. 'Nuf said.
 
larger tire or longer yoke

Installing a larger tire will lift the castle nut higher off the ground. If the yoke to the tire had a higher angle from the nut to the tire, that would also increase the height above the ground. The van's revision did increase the angle, however, I think that a larger angle would have also worked and still keep the tire behind the nut and having a higher clearance.

Bob
 
nose wheel

I just installed the MatcoMFG.com axel. After the first flight I noticed the differnece. I have over 630 hours on my 7A with the old setup. The new axel nut is much better and offers dramatically less rolling resistance. No other issues found that need addressing.
Tad Sargent
TeamRV
7A
 
I just installed the MatcoMFG.com axel. After the first flight I noticed the differnece. I have over 630 hours on my 7A with the old setup. The new axel nut is much better and offers dramatically less rolling resistance. No other issues found that need addressing.
Tad Sargent
TeamRV
7A
I helped a friend install that axel and you can see the difference when he taxies by, the nose leg doesn't move back and forth, like it did before. For $56.24, it is money well spent.

Here's the full link:
http://www.matcomfg.com/AXLEASSEMBLYA24125INCH-idv-3657-1.html
 
Stay off of grass runways. I do.

That is not an option, IMHO. There is so much to see, people to meet, food to eat at grass strips. Why limit yourself?

That is exactly why built a taildragger.

The mod Tad mentioned above is worth the few dollars. Besides, what happens if you have an engine failure? Are you going to try for a road when there is a grass trip right next door?

A plane that can't land on grass is not worth owning. Heck, if a Bonanza can land on grass, why can't an RV-xA?
 
That is not an option, IMHO. There is so much to see, people to meet, food to eat at grass strips. Why limit yourself?

That is exactly why built a taildragger.

The mod Tad mentioned above is worth the few dollars. Besides, what happens if you have an engine failure? Are you going to try for a road when there is a grass trip right next door?

A plane that can't land on grass is not worth owning. Heck, if a Bonanza can land on grass, why can't an RV-xA?

Roberta, a former RV-7A owner who frequents this forum, nearly always landed on grass, as does Jerry Thorne in his 9A who is also a forum member.
And all those early 6A videos that Van's promoted were off & on grass too!

L.Adamson -- RV6A
 
That is exactly why built a taildragger.

Do you know why I didn't build a taildgragger? The Pitt's S2B that I use to fly hit one of those plane hauling tractors that ran out of gas on the ramp between hangars. Sound familiar? :D

Between the lack of visibility and a setting sun, it just happened. Less forward visibility and an actual difference with crosswinds were part of my decision, along with looks on the ground. I think that taildragging side by side RV's just look like R/C planes. An 8 must be a taildragger, but it takes an F1 or Rocket to begin looking "mean"!

In the meantime I sure have an interest in one of those Turbo Cub's or something similar. Then I can do the real outback..... :)

Oh.............and in the pics of Van's RV7's in this thread. It was a 7 first, and they converted it to an A. It hasn't been switched back.

L.Adamson -- RV6A
 
Yes and

I've said it before but its worth repeating...Do not taxi these things cross rough ground like they are a Cessna..I was horrified watching pilot pogo-ing across rough ground at Arlington last year and they seemed completely oblivious..I had already stopped, got out and pulled the thing into parking.

Proper technique and treat the NG likes it made of glass and barring a big pothole right at when the NG won't stay aloft anymore, these things won't flip over..I hope anyway!

Frank
7a
 
I have hundreds of landings on grass strips in my 9A and so far no problems. Some of these strips have been quite rough and in all cases the nose wheel/strut has performed perfectly. I think the design is a reasonable compromise between strength, weight and cost. The only modification I have done is to strengthen and reshape the lower part of the nose pant cone to provide extra ground clearance.

Fin 9A
 
Stay off of grass runways. I do.

With the greatest of respect, that is a complete over reaction. I keep my 6A on a 2000ft grass strip. It has the original nose fork.

I would put money on Van's not producing a larger nosewheel mod for 6A, 7A, 8A, 9A fleet. There are a couple of after market mods available - one that uses a 10 nosewheel fork - but I'm not sure it is the panacea some make out.

The Matco axle (or a spacer inside the nosewheel) does seem like a good idea and is relatively easy to do.

There are at least 10 specific factors that influence the outcome of a landing, the nosewheel set up is but one. Yes, if circumstances come together the end result of getting a landing wrong in an A model can be more severe (a tip over) than in a Cessna. Let's start looking at the whole picture rather than focusing on the the mod standard of the nose wheel fork!

Here's some further reading, Nosewheel Page

Pete
 
Warts and all, I love my 9A.

A plane that can't land on grass is not worth owning.

To my good friend Bill: Not worth owning? That cool little airplane that flew me from Tucson to Chandler at 166kts burning a mere 6.8 of mogas is not worth owning?

I don't think so, Bill. :)

Fixing the front bearing issue shouldn't cost $56. It didn't cost me 56 cents. After bending the nose gear I was determined to avoid a recurrence so here's how we corrected the lousy design that forces seals to increase rolling resistance.
nosewheelspacer.jpg


We machined that middle steel spacer until the front wheel rolled freely. 30lbs air pressure, breakout = 22, wheel pants always on (sorry for you folks who live with snow), land at <= 64kts, hold the front wheel off till Mother Nature commands it down, and a lot of the problem goes away.

But I still won't land on dirt or grass. Life is a series of tradeoffs and this bird is worth it.
 
Pilot proficiency and technique. AAIB data shows that in the majority of accidents the pilot was inexperienced on type, had not flown much in the previous 90 days or was relatively inexperienced (in half the reported accidents less than 400 hours total). Van’s letter emphasizes that the nose gear does not react well to techniques that might be acceptable in the Piper or Cessna that you learnt in. In particular nose wheel first arrivals are unlikely to have a happy ending. Hard braking on soft or bumpy surfaces, especially with a forward c of g, can significantly increase the likelihood of nose undercarriage failure. Typical crosswind techniques of allowing the nosewheel down onto the runway at speeds approaching touch down speed may also not be helpful (two UK accidents occurred on hard runways), this factor may limit the crosswinds in which some pilots feel comfortable.

Simply put, the nose gear on an RV is a kick stand to keep the prop off the ground. Keep the stick pulled back and stay off the brakes. Don't let the nose gear touch down until the gravety takes over. Keep flying the plane until you shut the mags off.
 
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Does anyone know why

Van's recommends flying only with the nose wheel pant on? I may be dense, but I don't see why the NW pant is important to NG safety?:confused:
 
My take, you guys that are squealing about the nose wheel are just doing that, squealing. You need to fly and do it right. I have over 1500hrs in tail wheel. I have a 7A and love it. I land with the nose up. You get that, it's off the runway. I love landing my 7A. I round out for landing right at 60kts over the numbers and less than that as I touch the mains. I slightly pull back on the stick and keep the nose about a foot off the runway. I finally have the stick all the way back and the nose about a foot off the runway. At 40kts on the gps the nose will softly settle down. I put in a small amount of brake and turn off the runway. When I take off I slowely pull back on the stick with gradual throttle and lift the nose off and keep running down the runway until the bird lifts off the runway. I now have 198hrs since may 23,2009 on my wonderful 7A. I would never dream of converting this wonderful machine to a tailwheel. If people think I'm square or a sissy for not having a tailwheel, than whenever you want to challange me to some sort of flight test in my tailwheel that I still have and fly regularly, than conger up something and I'll blow you away with it.

I wouldn't think otherwise to landing on the sod, just haven't had the opertunity. I love the vis in front when taxi. I may never do a sod landing because my tailwheel is for that purpose.

I have the Grove nose wheel. The mains are Grove as well. This system works fantastic.

ONe last thing, I love my 7A, I looks cool, it flies wonderful, It's my baby.
Build what you want.
 
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Why should the front wheel pant be on?

Van's recommends flying only with the nose wheel pant on? I may be dense, but I don't see why the NW pant is important to NG safety?

If all else fails, the front wheel pant will give its life so the front landing gear does not continue to bend over like mine did. If my front pant was on, my 9A would have slid on the glass wheel pant. My tech counselor suggested we increase the thickness of the material inside the front pant to provide extra strength in case the wheel turns sideways and knuckles under.

I have approx 130 hours and zillions of landings since I bent the gear. IMO, "A" pilots should be able to do t & goes all day w/o the front wheel ever touching the ground.

Nothing is perfect (except my wife) but I sure as h--- love my 9A.
 
Hard braking on soft or bumpy surfaces, especially with a forward c of g, can significantly increase the likelihood of nose undercarriage failure.

Larry, I agree with your comment about avoiding hard braking on soft or bumpy surfaces. However the strut can take at least moderate braking on typical grass surfaces. My grass strip is short with a firm/hard surface and I must use at least moderate braking immediately after touchdown. Also I have to touchdown somewhat faster than stall speed to avoid wasting distance in an extended flare. I can feel the nose strut working hard when the brakes force it to the ground. However in hundreds of landings like this, there has never been the slightest sign of protest or problem from the nose assembly. As I said in post #13 I have modified my nose pant cone. I always have some weight in the back (tools and water) to take weight off the nose and I immediately retract flaps after touchdown as this helps take weight off the nose. Provided the nose wheel is not dropped into a large hole I think the strut has been designed with a good margin of strength to cope with most expected situations.

Fin
9A
 
Vans Service Bulletin

Just for your information what Vans say about the nosewheel:

"The nose gear on tricycle gear aircraft are not intended nor designed to sustain ‘landing’ loads. The nose gear is NOT a landing gear and is intended for ground maneuvering after touchdown and deceleration"

This is written in the Service Bulletin http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/Nose_gear_service_letter.pdf


Keep the nosewheel off the ground as long as possible, as you should do on many other plane also.

Regard,

Dominik
 
Thanks all for your input, I think this was one of the better discussions on the topic. I haven't started building yet, but when I do it will be either a 7A or 9A. I think proper technique will go a LONG way towards preventing any problems with the tric. gear, and I have no issues performing "soft field" landings on the tarmac (unless I have a very short runway). However, the thing that was concerning me was the report of the xA that taxied into a tie-down depression and flipped over. THAT IS COMPLETELY unacceptable (assuming the airplane was not going too fast). It seems to me that a larger nose wheel would go a LONG way towards improving the NG, and would be easy to impliment. I would happily give-up a knot or three for a larger wheel if it would result in a better design.
 
Problem solved?

This issue always seems to dredge up a bit of emotion which is expressed with various forms of chest thumping and strong opinions. Regardless of which end of the airplane the steering wheel is on we are all concerned about safety.... and getting insurance. I'm somewhat concerned that if there continues to be occasional issues with the front landing gear, our collective insurance premiums will rise.... or god forbid insurance companies refuse to write policies. I hope flyboy1963 was joking about his claim being denied. If it is true, you need to share the name of the insurance company with the rest of us so we can vote with our wallets and not do business with this company.

I noticed on the RV-10 that the nose gear design is different than the 6a and 7a and 8a. Perhaps this will allow for more traditional use of the front wheel.

http://www.wingscc.com/N2GB/FF1-Engine/100_3054.html

100_3054.html


If anyone has some ideas on adapting the 10s front landing gear design for use in the 6a, please share those ideas with the rest of the community.
 
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To my good friend Bill: Not worth owning? That cool little airplane that flew me from Tucson to Chandler at 166kts burning a mere 6.8 of mogas is not worth owning?

I don't think so, Bill. :)

...
Barry,

You misunderstood my comment. It is not that I think the RV-xA's shouldn't land on grass, it is just I would never own a plane that I was uncomfortable landing on grass (or one that was not approved for grass strips) as many RV-xA owners seem to be.
 
RV10 Nose gear

I fly the 10 the same way as the 2 seat A models. I think it is important to respect the nose wheel no matter the model. Even though the 10 is more robust I would never pound the nose wheel down the runway at speeds it can be lifted. Get the wheel up early and it just flys off when it is ready. Flying off of grass is a non issue for all the nose draggers. Just make the mains do all the work, nosewheel off the ground. The technic is very simple. In the 10 with no weight in the back the front wheel is much heavier, it just takes a bit more speed to get the wheel off the ground. This is where I think the 10 nose gear takes a bit more of a beating. A few seconds more I would think.
One thing I like the tri gear over the tailwheel is the quietness on ruff grass. You make a nice wheel landing and the rollout is smooth and quiet, then the tail wheel drops in the ruff grass and the drum roll begins. Then again I am still trying to get used to not feeling like I am going to tip over in a tri gear on a rolling down hill taxi, I go real slow. The tailwheel was a nice stable taxi platform.
Fly the plane they way it was designed and you should never have problems.
 
Van's recommends flying only with the nose wheel pant on? I may be dense, but I don't see why the NW pant is important to NG safety?:confused:

If the surface is soft, the small NG tire will sink, especially at low speed and low power when the elevator no longer is effective. The wheel pant prevents the wheel from going deep by acting as a ski. I had it happen last week after landing on a water saturated surface. I felt it go down and gave the engine a quick burst of power with full aft stick to get air across the elevator and reduce the NG load. No damage, just some mud on the NG tire and pant.

Flying off grass is no big deal. Keep the stick full aft and use your head. The trike can be dangerous on landing when the machine is too fast and the NG touches first. The machine will porpoise severely causing a harder NG touch down the second time. A go around must be the first reaction when this happens. Fly the approach and landing at the proper air speed and the matter is a non issue.

Having a larger nose wheel is not the answer. Flying the airplane properly is.
 
No question proper technique is essential in ANY airplane. No tricycle gear airplane should ever be landed on the nose wheel. But, we've all made bad landings, and we want and expect the design to be as forgiving as possible when things don't go quite as planned. In all the accident photos I've seen, the NG is bent backwards under the cowl. I don't think this has ANYTHING to do with the NG collapsing under too much stress, otherwise I would expect the NG to just flatten out in the forward direction. These all seem to be related to the NG coming to a sudden stop and "tripping" the airplane and the resultant forces bending the NG backwards as the entire momentum of the forward moving vertical airplane is on the NG. It's a subtle difference, but I don't consider these accidents the result of NG failure. If a slightly larger nose wheel would help prevent these "trips", then why not do it? - it would be a simple change. I don't know if the nose wheel on the 10 is larger, but if it is, the fork from the 10 could be used... my $0.02

Interestingly, it looks like the NG on the 12 is steerable; at least on the prototype
http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/rv-12his_2.htm
 
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I don't think this has ANYTHING to do with the NG collapsing under too much stress, otherwise I would expect the NG to just flatten out in the forward direction.

If this were the case then most certificated airplanes that have nose gear failures in a landing accident (C-172 for example) would have the nose gear fail forward. They are not the same design but the strut does angle forward.

In most cases the leg fails aft and causes damage to the firewall and sometimes belly.
 
Thanks all for your input, I think this was one of the better discussions on the topic. I haven't started building yet, but when I do it will be either a 7A or 9A. I think proper technique will go a LONG way towards preventing any problems with the tric. gear, and I have no issues performing "soft field" landings on the tarmac (unless I have a very short runway). However, the thing that was concerning me was the report of the xA that taxied into a tie-down depression and flipped over. THAT IS COMPLETELY unacceptable (assuming the airplane was not going too fast). It seems to me that a larger nose wheel would go a LONG way towards improving the NG, and would be easy to impliment. I would happily give-up a knot or three for a larger wheel if it would result in a better design.

I believe your information is incorrect about an RV flipping during taxi. I have heard of one one collapse incident when taxiing and the guy was taxiing at 12kts GS on rough grass with a subie (heavy) on the nose. Another forum contributor (I forget the guy's name) had his nose gear flex dramatically when he taxied into a hole that but it did not fail.

Could you please cite the incident where the RV flipped while taxiing? I'm just trying to prevent unfounded rumors from being spread.

Also, I land my RV-7A on grass with no reservations if I'm familiar with the field. I use soft field techniques on every take-off and landing, grass or not.
 
The trike can be dangerous on landing when the machine is too fast and the NG touches first. The machine will porpoise severely causing a harder NG touch down the second time. A go around must be the first reaction when this happens. Fly the approach and landing at the proper air speed and the matter is a non issue.

David, with all due respect you're talking about Cessnas and Pipers which have such robust nosegear that you really have to brutalise them with a nose-gear-first or porpoise landing to collapse them. But that is not the case with the two seat RV(A)s. The RV(A) nose gear is very fragile and you do NOT need to touch down nose gear first or induce a porpoise to cause a collapse.....in fact many of the failures have occurred on mid to late roll-out.

Yes, it is absolutely true that keeping the nose off the ground for as long as possible in both take-off and landing is super crucial for the RV(A)s. I did 8 hours of transition training with Mike Seager and most of that was simply learning to keep the load off the nose.

Both Vans and Mike Seager understand that the RV nosegear is not anywhere near as robust as a Piper or Cessna oleo strut...and therefore they stress the need to fly accordingly.

So I fully understand the theory. But as others often point out the theory is fine in fine weather but may be harder to execute in more trying conditions.

On a rainy day in a gusting crosswind near the limits at a demanding and unfamiliar airstrip it may not be possible to pull off that optimum landing that you speak of. I know what to do but I certainly can't pull it off 100% of the time....and I doubt that you can either.

It sure would be nice to think that the RV nosegear might be able to take a bit of punishment when the circumstances become a more demanding....but it obviously cannot be relied on to do so.

My best guess is that the two-seat RV nosegear saga will never go away because a disproportionate number of RV nosegears will continue to collapse in relatively benign circumstances. And so the fire (and the bad press) will never die.

Thus in the end Vans will probably be forced to make serious changes to the design. My guess is that they will retain the same size wheel but ultimately adopt a design that is closer to the RV10 (which was probably largely stolen from the Cirrus.....larger diameter circular hollow section leg with hinged gear and dampeners).

The problem is that making any meaningful structural improvements to the nosegear will require modifications to the engine mount. For all the thousands of RV(A) owners flying (or at an advanced stage of building) that will present a major dilemma because it will mean removing the engine and replacing the mounting, and also re-routing some FWF hardware. A real nighmare actually...and expensive (not to mention the cost of the new nose gear).

The problem will be that (like the last nosegear upgrade) planes that are not upgraded will be financially devalued because they will be seen to be less safe. That will be the politics of the matter.

I read that many posters are of the belief that simply putting a larger wheel up front might solve the problem. But in reality while it might improve clearance I suspect that the extra mass on the existing leg might actually make the problem much worse.
 
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My 6A is just fine. I stay off of grass fields but may consider one if it were lawn grade perfect. I changed to the new fork assembly about two years ago.

I also added carbon fiber on the bottoms/sides of the front of the nose wheel pant to minimize the chance that it would break and allow the nut to catch on ground/pavement.
 
Flip in progress

I believe your information is incorrect about an RV flipping during taxi. I have heard of one one collapse incident when taxiing and the guy was taxiing at 12kts GS on rough grass with a subie (heavy) on the nose. Another forum contributor (I forget the guy's name) had his nose gear flex dramatically when he taxied into a hole that but it did not fail.

Could you please cite the incident where the RV flipped while taxiing? I'm just trying to prevent unfounded rumors from being spread.

I'm with those who think this is a non-issue with proper technique, but maybe he meant this one:

-- http://www.airliners.net/photo/Van's-RV-7A/1225773/L/

The page says it was during landing, but their proximity to other aircraft suggests a taxiway.
 
OK, here we go again.....

Lets just speculate that Vans designed an optional 'beefy' nose wheel/gear.

Would you order the option?

It would reduce 90% of the damage that is happening currently. (nothing can protect everyone).
It adds 10 lbs up front.
It cuts cruse speed 2 kts.
It cost and extra $200.00.

Not me!
I will continue to use correct on the ground operating technique.

If someone is doesn't feel that they are up to safe standards to do this, then they should spend some time in a C172. The Cessna does have a more robust landing landing gear and can handle a less skilled pilot. They are not impervious to bad landing as can be seen by all the firewall repairs that are done to then at flight schools.

I think that the current design is correct for the type of aircraft that I want to fly.

Kent
 
$200 for a safer airplane??? you bet!

I stand corrected, the RV who's NG dropped into the tie down hole did not flip over, but it did sustain damage to the gear. Could have been prevented with a larger diameter nose wheel... simple. I haven't seen any incidents where there was NG damage not associated with the nose wheel digging into soft ground or a rut.
 
$200 for a safer airplane??? you bet!

I stand corrected, the RV who's NG dropped into the tie down hole did not flip over, but it did sustain damage to the gear. Could have been prevented with a larger diameter nose wheel... simple. I haven't seen any incidents where there was NG damage not associated with the nose wheel digging into soft ground or a rut.

A friend of mine has super sized tundra tires on her Piper Super Cub. Of course she has to leave an hour earlier than we do for a 150 mile brunch run.

I don't want a larger diameter tire on my 6A, let alone an extra 10 lbs. I don't need it.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
So far I have found 68 accidents with A-model nose gear damage. Most of them resulted in a flip. Far to many for my liking.

Most of these accidents were probably caused by the pilots. OK use proper technique, etc. but?.. nobody is perfect! also not those that claim to be ace pilots that never make mistakes. One of the flips was a pilot with over 15.000 hrs.! Another one hit a rabbit on roll out!

I believe that any design needs some safety margin and the nose gear does not seam to have that. Installing a larger tire may make things worse, like others said before, the longer arm will put more force on the Bend in the strut, causing it to bend backwards, etc??..

More clearance is better, making the fairing into a skid to keep the nut from digging in is better, making sure the wheel rolls freely is better, but the strut will always be the ?pole vault? that, if it gets the slightest abuse, will bent and cause the problems that you can find 68 times on the internet.

Perhaps it would be best not advertise that there is no problem, because less experienced pilots may also think it is not a big deal and kill themselves or their loved ones, trying the same thing, that some claim to be so good at. The statistics say that if you do make a (smal) mistake it will end bad, no matter how good a pilot you are.

Please fly safe,

Regards, Tonny.
 
Lets just speculate that Vans designed an optional 'beefy' nose wheel/gear.

Would you order the option?

It would reduce 90% of the damage that is happening currently. (nothing can protect everyone).
It adds 10 lbs up front.
It cuts cruse speed 2 kts.
It cost and extra $200.00.

Kent

Hi Kent, I doubt that a scaled down version of the RV10 nosegear adapted for the two place RV(A)s would necessarily add any weight, involve a speed penalty, or cost significantly more than the current offering. The RV10 nosegear is not just a "beefed up" version of the two place nosegear...it is a more efficient design altogether and it works on a completely different suspension principle.

The current two place nose gear design was probably OK for the RV6A with its lower gross weight and shorter main gear...but it is now being pushed to its limit (and beyond in some cases) in the newer models. This is being compounded by the fact that today everyone wants to put heavier engines and props up front which places additional loads on the nosegear. The end result is a more marginal safety factor.

Vans knew when they designed the RV10 that their two place nosegear design would not "cut the mustard" with the additional loads involved so they went in a different direction. And I don't hear of too many RV10s suffering from collapsed nosegears so that is worth considering.

Many builders believe that the problem with the current two place nosegear design is that the existing tire is too small to provide adequate ground clearance. I do not subscribe to that theory. I believe that the current tire size is OK but that the current suspension principle is now proving to be marginal in respect of the increased loads involved.
 
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Bob, I doubt that many RV-10s go into grass strips. It logically follows that there is far less risk. Perhaps the real improvement is the changed nose design you mention.
 
Bob, I doubt that many RV-10s go into grass strips. It logically follows that there is far less risk. Perhaps the real improvement is the changed nose design you mention.

In our neck of the woods, you are likely to see a good sampling of RV-10's at the events held on grass strips. The -10 pilots I know consider the RV-10 to be as capable (or maybe more so) on grass strips as any of the other RV models.

Ron, plan your xcountries so you can make the fine breakfast at Moontown, AL on the third Saturday (breakfast is on me). Don't worry about the grass strip, your plane has been there several times. :)
 
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My mind goes to solutions

Pilot Tonny hits the nail on the head. The subject of ?A? nose gear problems always creates an interesting and sometimes heated exchange. The highly experienced pilots in our midst tend to demean those who have suffered the indignity and expense of a nose gear failure.

I suffered said nose gear failure and amongst the contributory negligence I admit to was the lack of a front wheel pant. I was taxiing my 9A, engine at idle when my front wheel turned sideways following an undulation at an intersection, and then bent under. If I had the front wheel pant installed, it may have saved me $7,200 in expenses, two months of work, and endless self recrimination over such a stupid error, but that?s not the point.

The point is, the front gear design is what it is and there appears to be no changes forthcoming from the vendor to make it more resistant to catastrophe. Every model of every airplane has its less-than-perfect features. Ideally, if we are truly a brotherhood/sisterhood interested in the success of our chosen airplane, the more experienced amongst us should collaborate on a narrated video that demonstrates the BEST possible landing & taxi to avoid said mishap.

Second, all of the proposed solutions that mitigate the problem should be located in one place with ample pictures so that no one misses it.

Third, in an ideal world, Vans would post the professional video and maintenance tips on its website, but their lawyers may object.

Knowledge is power. If we can help someone else avoid a potentially deadly and (certainly) a costly problem, count me in. My son-in-law owns the professional video equipment that produces hi-resolution movies. I challenge the best amongst us to come to Tucson and I?ll get the landing video & cross wind landing video professionally recorded & edited for free. Placed on a special location on Doug?s website (perhaps), alongside photos of gear improvements & ideas, we can help ourselves and those who will follow.

That makes a lot more sense to me that arguing over which end of the airplane the wheel belongs.
 
Just wondering, is there any documented or consensus regarding beefing up the NG with strips of wood, as it is suggested for the main gear to reduce shimming? It is rather simple, light and cheep and should stiffen the NG. My only concern is that it may transfer the load/force much more to the rear/top where it joins the engine mount and eventually break from there?

This solution perhaps with the skid plate inside the wheel pant to protect against the front bolt digging in.


Any thoughts on that?

Mehrdd
RV7A- IO360M1B
 
One of the flips was a pilot with over 15.000 hrs.! Another one hit a rabbit on roll out!

Go and read that report. The nosegear failed "as the aircraft approached rotation speed" on take-off on a grass strip. The 15.000 hours were obtained in airliners. This guy was flying the RV like an airliner...keeping the nose on the ground until rotation. That is NOT soft-field technique. So 15,000 hours or not, he still screwed up pretty bad. I'm not saying that we can't improve the nose-gear (I believe there is some room for improvment) but proper (ok ANY) soft-field technique would have made this gentleman's day end a lot better.
 
A member of our RV9A group has designed a replacement nose gear in the UK. The design is currently being evaluated by our Light Aircraft Association who will completely number crunch it.They required some modifications to it and these have been incorporated into the design, more number crunching is now going on to make sure it will cut the mustard.

If and when it is approved, I guess we will be the first to fit it to our aeroplane. LAA will rquire a significant number of landongs before it is approved for other aircraft. As and when these are done I will let members on this board know, and likely costs.
 
Hmmm, sounds pretty good.

Geez, where do I sign up for this? Let's see, a 90% improved design, only a 10 pound, 2 knot and $200 penalty. I am in.

I am a relative newbie hour wise (500), so I still make the occasional less than perfect landing. I would be happy to have some additional safety margin built into the design.

Lets just speculate that Vans designed an optional 'beefy' nose wheel/gear.

Would you order the option?

It would reduce 90% of the damage that is happening currently. (nothing can protect everyone).
It adds 10 lbs up front.
It cuts cruse speed 2 kts.
It cost and extra $200.00.

Not me!
I will continue to use correct on the ground operating technique.

If someone is doesn't feel that they are up to safe standards to do this, then they should spend some time in a C172. The Cessna does have a more robust landing landing gear and can handle a less skilled pilot. They are not impervious to bad landing as can be seen by all the firewall repairs that are done to then at flight schools.

I think that the current design is correct for the type of aircraft that I want to fly.

Kent
 
a forgiving nose

whether you call it a safety factor, or a forgiving design, I would like MORE margin in the -a nose gear.
I am not a high-time pilot who flies every day, and along with the fun of visiting other airfields, I am SURE I'll run across some condition that will test the nosegear.
I don't think I can just practice perfecting my landing and taxi technique..... to the point I eliminate the chance of hitting a pothole. stuff happens. that's why it's called an 'accident'.

with an 0-320 and FP metal prop, I'm unlikely to put excess weight on it by design, and will obviously use all the techniques learned here to avoid testing the 'flip' limit.

Thanks to all who are trying to address the issue .......in any way!
 
MrNomad,

I'm not sure I understand how having had the wheel pant on would have prevented the wheel from turning sideways.

Thanks,

Tom