[prkaye]

In order to save on weight, cost, and elbow room (I'm told the Classic Aero side panels take up a lot of elbow room, and weight a lot), I'm considering not putting any kind of upholstered side panels in the plane. Only seats. I've been warned that leaving the sides bare metal will be very noisy. Has anyone else done this, and have you found it to be a problem?

 

[kiwipete]

Arm rests only

Phil

I have the classic aero seats, front carpet and just have arm rests on the sides. These attached fine without the side covers.
Winter flying was ok as my arm rested on the arm rest.
Noise: - I wear a headset anyway so it's not an issue. Plus I have no sound proofing on the firewall and I think that would be where most noise would come from.
I flew the first six months without carpet and that did make a noticeable difference to the exhaust noise, plus I used to get a vibration if I lifted my feet off the floor.

Peter

 

[Sam Buchanan]

In order to save on weight, cost, and elbow room (I'm told the Classic Aero side panels take up a lot of elbow room, and weight a lot), I'm considering not putting any kind of upholstered side panels in the plane. Only seats. I've been warned that leaving the sides bare metal will be very noisy. Has anyone else done this, and have you found it to be a problem?

Phil, you will indeed have more elbow room without upholstered panels. You might be interested in seeing how I glued fabric to the sides of the interior to trim out the cabin:

http://thervjournal.com/interior.html

I think it looks more finished than bare walls and you don't lose any elbow room. Don't know if noise is an issue since the cabin of an RV is so noisy anyway.

 

[henriquerv9]

only seats

I am using only seats with no side panels. Since I am using lighspeeds passive headset and i feel very comfortable with it. Obviously if you took the headsets off the environment will be very noise.
I just recomend puting something on the floor to get less vibration.


Henrique Castro

 

[lostpilot28]

Are you talking about the Aviator Side Panels? I've heard that they limit elbow room, too...but I don't think the Sportsman panels do. Does anyone out there have an opinion on both of these so we can compare?

 

[N941WR]

Phil,

My interior is exactly as you described. With ANR headsets, the noise and vibration are not issues.

On the floor I have 3/4" sound proofing and a VERY thin carpet. In fact, my "carpet" actually a piece of $10.99 Oil Dri Garage Guard Oil Mat from Northern Tool cut to fit.

The only real issue I have had was on a flight back from visiting Mom in Northern Michigan when it was 15*F OAT's on the ground. Those side panels got a bit cold. Other than that, I was flying with just a fleece on, no gloves or hat. BTW, it was much colder than that at 11,500 going over the top of Detroit on the way home.

I have thought of using some of the extra leather to cover the arm rests and to make inserts for the side panels above the arm rests. I was going to glue the leather to some stiff thin plastic sheets and Velcro them in place so they can be removed for the condition inspections.

BTW, I bought three matching hides for my interior. They used two for the seats (I bought Van's cushions and had each piece upholstered separately.) so I have an extra matching hide for interior panels, if I ever make them.

 

[N131RV]

Don't take up much room

In order to save on weight, cost, and elbow room (I'm told the Classic Aero side panels take up a lot of elbow room, and weight a lot), I'm considering not putting any kind of upholstered side panels in the plane. Only seats. I've been warned that leaving the sides bare metal will be very noisy. Has anyone else done this, and have you found it to be a problem?

I have the Sportsman package in my 7. The top portion of the side panels are less than 1/4" think (with the velcro to hold them in).
The bottom portion is inset a couple of inches with foam. It covers the rudder cables and makes a nice line from the seat bottom to the bottom of the armrest. It's flexible and if your hips are wide, it just springs away. I don't notice any loss of room.

For noise, by far the biggest noise reducer for me was the front carpet (also from Classic). Made a huge difference (to my ears). The seats and side panels also made a difference when I got them in.

The side panels probably weigh in at less than 5 lbs total.

Total weight for my interior, with Sportsman leather seats, side panels, front carpet and tonneau cover is around 27 pounds.

I flew my phase 1 with no carpet and just a seat cushion borrowed from my Long-EZ. It was VERY loud.

After the full interior was in, it's still loud (200HP) but bearable.
My biggest objection was cost, not weight.
Tell you what, though, my wife probably would not fly with me without a comfortable interior. She has back problems and good seats were a necessity.

YMMV,

 

[Jamie]

I have Classic Aero seats and carpet, but no side panels. I figured if I decided I wanted them I could always buy them later. I have no regrets and no plans to put them in. The interior is completely comfortable. In fact, I never even think about the lack of covering on the sides.

As for the seats, my wife loves them more than the seats in our two autos. We have been all over in our -7A and she has commented more than once on the comfort the seats provide.

 

[Steve]

Make your own Side Panels

I made my own side panels using extra cloth I purchased from Classic Aero when I bought my arm rests from them. The cloth is the same pattern as as the seat insert and the arm rests.
I spray glued (3M77) the cloth to corrugated plastic panels and then velcroed the panels to the side walls. The plastic panel came from a cut up shipping box (looks just like cardboard but is white plastic) my shipping dept had as a sample. It's less than 1/4" thick and weighs almost nothing but keeps your forearm away from the aluminum. Cardboard might also work.
I bought a yard of cloth from Classic and had enough to make more panels (using more of the white plastic) to box in the small tri-angular area on top of the flap arms. I store my Gatts jar, tie down rings and rudder gust lock in those areas.

Steve

 

[L.Adamson]

At the moment, I have no insulation or carpet anywhere. My ANR headset's take care of most of the noise. It's enough that I seldom even think about the noise. However, it's very loud without them. Sooner or later, I'll have thin insulation and carpet on the floor, as well as fabric side panels. I doubt that I'll insulate the sides.

L.Adamson --- RV6A

 

[Jim P]

I'm flying with CAD carpet, aviator seats, and have the baggage area side panes and carpet (not yet installed). The carpet fit great adn I love the seats. I also installed the elbow rests but no side panels. With ANRs, noise is still at a comfortable level. Actually, I think I get more noise through the front of the canopy and wind effect.

 

[rvmills]

I bought my RV flying and it did not have side panels. Didn't really bother me with ANR headsets, but when doing a panel upgrade, I decided to go the material-over-panel inserts route (attached with velcro as mentioned above), and was lucky enough to find material that matched my existing seats. Made some "step-on" pads for the seats from extra material. I also painted on some sound deadening paint to the forward floor, and installed carpet over padding there. It may be a bit quieter (hard to tell with ANR), but the look seems more finished, so I'm diggin' it. Here's a pic:

For the keen-eyed, the Dynon AP is a paper version, till the real thing starts shipping! No matter how hard I push the buttons on it, it still won't hold altitude or heading!

Cheers,
Bob

 

[Mel]

For the keen-eyed, the Dynon AP is a paper version, till the real thing starts shipping! No matter how hard I push the buttons on it, it still won't hold altitude or heading!

Maybe not Bob, but the weight and current draw can't be beat!

 

[DeltaRomeo]

In order to save on weight, cost, and elbow room (I'm told the Classic Aero side panels take up a lot of elbow room, and weight a lot), I'm considering not putting any kind of upholstered side panels in the plane. Only seats. I've been warned that leaving the sides bare metal will be very noisy. Has anyone else done this, and have you found it to be a problem?

Yes (I've done this). I'm six years into flying with no side panels. Upside is, as you've heard already, a little more elbow room (and this becomes an issue when giving rides to broad-shouldered passengers). Downside is you get cold elbows on those early spring and fall days when it's not cold enough on the ground for a jacket. Also, high cross country flights (10,000+ ft) means you get cold soaked sooner.

I kinda like having the extra room and lighter weight, and having ANR (or Halo-type) headsets makes the noise issue no biggie.

Of course I MEANT to put carpet on the sides....and maybe will end up doing it You can easily try both approaches!

 

[rvmills]

Maybe not Bob, but the weight and current draw can't be beat!

Very true Mel!! And so far I haven't had to spend a minute configuring or troubleshooting it!

Right now it's just a cover for a hole that I am going to pour money into!

Cheers,
Bob

 

[prkaye]

Bob, your side panels look amazing. What did you use for the inserts (under the fabric)?

 

[DGlaeser]

I had Abbey do my interior

If you don't want to 'roll your own' interior, the interiors from Abbey (http://www.flightlineinteriors.com/) are just fabric that you glue on, or use velcro as appropriate. All the pieces are pre-cut and numbered

 

[rvmills]

Bob, your side panels look amazing. What did you use for the inserts (under the fabric)?

Thanks Phil! I used 3/16" white poster board from a craft store as the base. It came in 36" x 24" sheets. Very light, and it seems stronger than cardboard, which I thought might bend. My inserts probably could bend if I'm not careful taking them out, but so far, so good.

Startin' out, I wanted to check flammabilty of the final product (especially after reading a couple threads on that subject here), so I did a small mock-up with the covering and did a flame check. It didn't torch, and I left the front bays by the firewall uncovered.

To cover:

- First, I used heat resistant spray-on glue to attach thin layer of automotive headliner material to the base, and trimmed the edges flush. This adds a little depth, but gives a padded feel to the insert.

- Then I cut the outer material about 1.5 inches larger on all sides, and with the inserts face down, I applied more of the same glue, and pulled the outer fabric over the back side, stretching it just a bit for a taught fit, and pressed into place till the glue held.

Pretty easy for the most part. Hardest part was measuring all the bays and cutting the base material for a good fit...some odd angles and shapes, and each bay was different. I also took care to cut the material so the tweed all went in the same direction, and was very careful on the piece that I had embroidered...did that one last, as I only had one shot at doing that one right! The hot rod upholsterer I bought the material and headliner from showed me a trick on the corners, and I'll see if I can dig up some pix of that process and post them here.

I did the cockpit and the baggage compartment bays, and it added under 5 pounds. The inserts ended up about 3/8' thick, maybe a bit less, and elbow room is still very good (I'm a medium sized guy).

Thanks again!

Cheers,
Bob

 

[rvmills]

Making the inserts, part 1...

Phil,

I didn't have any pics, so when out at the hangar today, I made another panel, so I could pass this along (and archive the steps too). Hope this doesn't get too ad nauseum, but here goes (done in two parts to meet the 10 image max per post):

1. First, the stuff: Hi Temp spray on glue, the insert backing material, outer cover material (I chose fire-resistant upholstery fabric), headliner material, carpet scissors (highly recommended...much better than regular scissors), utility knife (to cut backing), hi-tech measuring device (a piece of scrap with a 1.5" marking):

2. With the panel backing cut (I made mine 1/8' smaller on all sides than the bay it was going in to allow for the material...could have used 1/16", as I have a couple gaps), spray glue on panel and headliner. I traced the panel outline on the headliner just to know where to spray, to save glue:

3. After laying the panel on the headliner and gluing it in place, trim the headliner (no excess needed):

4. Place the panel insert on top of the outer material (both face up), and use your hi-tech measuring device (or eyeball it) and trace an outline 1 to 1.5 inches larger than the panel. Here's where you make sure that any pattern lines up the way you want it to (and do it the same way every time for a uniform look...learned that the hard way!):

5. Here's what the final pieces look like before gluing:

6. Place the insert on top of the cut outer fabric (both face down this time), and spray glue on the exposed edge of the fabric and the panel outer edges:

7. Start from the middle of one side, and stretch the fabric (a little), and press it down on the panel. Work your way towards one corner. Try to stretch it the same amount as you work across, so the pattern stays pretty level (if you have a pattern):

8. For an outside corner, this upholsterer's trick is pretty slick. Bring the material on two adjacent sides together, and as you get to the corner, pinch the material together, keeping it as flat against the panel as you can as you get close to the corner, like this:

9. Then you make two cuts as shown in the following two pictures. The first cut is made low and parallel to the panel. Keep it close to the panel and the fabric below it will lay nicely on the panel and not overlap:

10. Make the second cut almost vertical, maybe angled a bit towards the panel center at the top. You'll end up cutting out a little triangle of material:

 

[rvmills]

Making the inserts, part 2...

11. Here's what it looks like afer the triangle is cut away:

12. Next, spread apart the remaining tab (it was previously pinched, and will be a bit sticky). Should look like this:

13. Pull the tab towards the center of the panel, and lay it down and press it on the panel. It should stick, but I found I often needed a little spray of glue on the panel to make the tab stick to the lower fabric and panel. When you pull the tab, a little pull gives you a nice rounded corner...too much pull and the panel corner could crush. You'll have the right pull figured after the first one:

14. Inside corners are easy. Just cut the material from outer corner to the corner of the panel, stretch it over and press into place:

15. Here's what the back looks like, after it's glued in place. I added velcro to the white portion of the panel-back, and though the corner tabs are a bit thicker than the rest of the material on the back, the velcro thickness about matched the corner tabs, and the panels lay flat when in place in the airplane (the corners don't bow in towards you):

16. Here's the finished panel from the front:

17. Lastly (whew), here are two pics of the panels in place (a better one of the cockpit with the headset out of the way, and one of the baggage compartment):

Not quite as purty as those nice custom interiors (which I greatly admire), but it makes it a little more cozy!

Hope that wasn't too arduous of a post, and best of luck with panel inserts if you roll your own!

Cheers,
Bob

 

[tsneidin]

re: Making the inserts, part 1...

Bob,

Thanks so much for documenting your side panels. They look great!

Todd

 

[rvmills]

Bob,

Thanks so much for documenting your side panels. They look great!

Todd

Thanks Todd!

 

[Alan Gilmore]

Adhesive source and name?

First, very nice explanation. I like it because you gave just the amount of detail.

High temperature spray adhesive...what is the name and source of such an exotic substance????

 

[rvmills]

Alan, I'll get the name and post it when I run by the hangar. Picked it up from a carpet and fabric store, after the hot rod upholsterer recommended it. More to follow (just lettin' ya know I saw the post).

Cheers,
Bob

 

[RichB]

Re the noise issue, there's some good reading here. Light Aircraft Insulation by Dan Newland is a 10MB presentation (apparently from Oshkosh 2005) that does a great job of explaining the hows and whys of light aircraft noise... yes, trim panels are mentioned!

 

[rvmills]

Hi-Temp Adhesive

Alan,

The adhesive I used is Performance High-Temp Trim Adhesive, from Performance Aerosol Products.

As I mentioned it was recommended by the hot-rod upholsterer. I picked it up locally for $12 and change (ouch) per can. I used just over a can (with some practice panels included...careful use may do an RV in just one can). I just did a google search, and the company did not come up, but I found the stuff for $9.95 per can here:

http://www.yourautotrim.com/perhittrimad.html

Looks like it may be highly touted by the auto enthusiast crowd.

One big caveat, that has me exploring some inner covering options, is that the glue is flammable. On the outside of my panels it's of course covered by the outer fabric and the padded headliner material. My open flame tests showed that the outer surface chars but won't readily burn when held to an open flame. However, I just did a test of the back of the sample panel from the pics, and overspray spots of the glue did hold a flame. Also, my panel material is foam board, and by itself that will hold a flame too. So overspray control is a good idea during application. Of course, the inside of the panels are against the fuselage, and should not be exposed to flames if there were to be an electrical fire, but perhaps covering the inside of the panels (whether foam board or cardboard or some other such material is used) would be a good protective measure.

RichB's post is timely, as that site discusses flame retardent properties as well as noise, vibration and thermal protection. I'm considering some of the Orcotape they have on their website as a flame retardent barrier for the inside of the panels.

I'm not cavalier about in-flight fire at all, though I do feel that these panels are all accessible with a fire extinguisher, removable, and nothing electrical runs behind them. And if there was ever a hint of smoke or fumes anywhere, well I'd be on the ground so fast...but a little precaution is certainly prudent!

As for the thermal and acoustic properties...I did the panels mainly for aesthetics and the cozy factor, and figured that any noise decrease benefits would be a bonus. With sound deadening paint on the forward floor, padding under the carpet and firewall blankets on the aft side of the firewall (those to be installed soon), maybe it'll drop the noise a few dB (maybe). Thank goodness for ANR!!

Rich, that article was pretty intersting though, and they sure went to great lengths to quiet down the sample Lancair! Seems like you almost have to hermetically seal it up to really make a significant difference...but it was very educational.

Anyway, enough late-night ramblin'! All the best!

Cheers,
Bob

 

[az_gila]

Adhesive spray....

...it's pretty hard to beat 3M #90 spray adhesive for this application, and it's even available from the aviation dept. of Home Depot.

When I re-did the headlining on my Tiger, several shops and other owners reccommended this product.

3M rates it to 160 F and tests it, with a reduced strength, to 180F. I could not even find a data sheet for the Performance Products aerosol can shown above. Generic "Hi_Temp" wording is good, but I like to see a data sheet backing it up....

In the Arizona desert, this glue is holding up two layers of super soundproofing foam and an Airtex wool headliner fabric to the top of my Tiger interior (directly glued to the aluminum) - with no problems.

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/...id=1114284885132#7_RJH9U5230GE3E02LECIE204A00

Sprayed in thin layers, it does not seem to bleed through fabrics.

I think this automotive #90 is the same stuff, just labelled for the automotive industry, with more $$ at your local auto paint dealer...

http://www3.3m.com/catalog/us/en001...upport_3_0/command_AbcPageHandler/output_html

...just go to Home Depot - note that the more common #77 aerosol just isn't as strong in this application....

 

[flyinlee]

side panels

Check out "aircraftextras.com" They have side panels.