Bryan Wood

Well Known Member
Well it's official. As of yesterday new FAA rules went into affect making "Position and hold" a thing of the past. Expect delays and hot engines while waiting for breaks so controllers can get you out. :mad: Bummer!
 
Is that for all traffic? Or just civilian traffic? We use that a lot here in our airfield. Do you have a link?
 
Real Bummer

They yanked our postion and hold privs last year after a couple of incidents after the tower muffed up and had one on the runway and the plane on final cleared to land. It was not the pilots fault but the pilots get the brunt of it. Of course at a non-towered field you can still do it.

Gary
 
No web link here. The reason I became aware of it is that being home with the flu and looking for things to keep from going crazy I called the tower at my local field Reid Hillview to ask a question that has been on my mind. Before hanging up I was told that the boss up there was working on briefing of sorts to put into the GA terminal to explain the new rule that disallows position and hold as of yesterday. I asked if it national and he said it is going into effect everywhere. He seemed disappointed by the rule stating that the procedure was a usefull tool for them to keep traffic flowing. I'm sure more will be coming out on it soon.

Best,
 
TIPH

It applies to all airports, but each facility can put in for a waiver based on traffic and conditions. You will probably see that most places that need position and hold, will continue on as before.
 
I can't find anything in the Federal Register. Here is the most recent guidance I can find on changes to TIPH:
http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/at_notices/media/N7110.456.pdf

These changes were effective yesterday.

An older version of 7110.65R without the new revisions can be found here:
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/air_traffic_orders/media/7110.65R.pdf

Below is the relevant section is 3.9.4, which I have marked up to incorporate the new language.

3−9−4. TAXI INTO POSITION AND HOLD (TIPH)
The intent of TIPH is to position aircraft for an imminent departure. Authorize an aircraft to taxi into position and hold, except as restricted in subparagraph g, when takeoff clearance cannot be issued because of traffic. Issue traffic information to any aircraft so authorized. Traffic information may be omitted when traffic is another aircraft which has landed on or is taking off the same runway and is clearly visible to the holding aircraft. Do not use conditional phrases such as ?behind landing traffic? or ?after the departing aircraft.?

b. USN NOT APPLICABLE. First state the runway number followed by the taxi into position clearance when more than one runway is active.
PHRASEOLOGY−
RUNWAY (number), POSITION AND HOLD.
Or, when only one runway is active:
POSITION AND HOLD.

c. Do not issue a clearance to an aircraft requesting a full-stop, touch-and-go, stop-and-go, option, or unrestricted low approach on the same runway with an aircraft that is holding in position, taxiing into position or has been cleared to taxi into position and hold until the aircraft in position starts takeoff roll. Do not clear an aircraft to TIPH if an aircraft has been cleared to land, touch-and-go, stop-and-go, option, or unrestricted low approach on the same runway.
PHRASEOLOGY ?
?RUNWAY (number), CONTINUE, TRAFFIC HOLDING IN POSITION.? or, (when only one runway is active): ?CONTINUE, TRAFFIC HOLDING IN POSITION.?
EXAMPLE ?
?American 528, runway two three, continue, traffic holding in position.? or, (when only one runway is active): ?American 528, continue, traffic holding in position.?
(1) Landing clearance need not be withheld if the safety logic system is operating in the full core alert runway configuration.
(2) Facilities without the safety logic system and facilities with the safety logic system in limited configuration must withhold landing clearance until the aircraft in position starts takeoff roll.

d. When an aircraft is authorized to taxi into position and hold, inform it of the closest traffic requesting a full-stop, touch-and-go, stop-and-go, option, or unrestricted low approach to the same runway.USAF. When an aircraft is authorized to taxi into takeoff position to hold, inform it of the closest traffic within 6 miles on final approach to the same runway. If the approaching aircraft is on a different frequency, inform it of the aircraft taxiing into position.

e. USAF. When an aircraft is authorized to taxi into takeoff position to hold, inform it of the closest traffic within 6 miles on final approach to the same runway. If the approaching aircraft is on a different frequency, inform it of the aircraft taxiing into position.

f. Do not authorize an aircraft to taxi into position and hold when the departure point is not visible from the tower, unless the aircraft?s position can be verified by ASDE or the runway is used for departures only.

g. An aircraft may be authorized to taxi into position and hold at an intersection between sunset and sunrise. The procedure must be approved by the appropriate Director, Terminal Operations (service area office), and by the Director, Terminal Safety and Operations Support, and must be contained in a facility directive. The following conditions must apply:
(1) The runway must be used as a departure-only runway.
(2) Only one aircraft at a time is permitted to taxi into position and hold on the same runway.
(3) Document on FAA Form 7230-4, Daily Record of Facility Operation, the following:
?TIPH at INT of RWY (number) and TWY (name) IN EFFECT? when using runway as a departure-only runway. ?TIPH at INT of RWY (number) and TWY (name) SUSPENDED? when runway is not used as a departure-only runway.

h. USN. Do not authorize an aircraft to taxi into position and hold at any time when the intersection is not visible from the tower.

i. Do not authorize aircraft to simultaneously taxi into position and hold on the same runway, between sunrise and sunset, unless the local assist/local monitor position is staffed.

j. USAF/USN. When issuing additional instructions or information to an aircraft holding in takeoff position, include instructions to continue holding or taxi off the runway, unless it is cleared for takeoff.
PHRASEOLOGY−
CONTINUE HOLDING,
or
TAXI OFF THE RUNWAY.

k. When aircraft are authorized to taxi into position and hold on runways that intersect, traffic must be exchanged between that aircraft and the aircraft that is authorized to position and hold, depart, or arrive to the intersecting runway(s).
EXAMPLE ?
?United Five, runway four, position and hold, traffic holding runway three-one.?
?Delta One, runway three-one, position and hold, traffic holding runway four.?
or, when issuing traffic information to an arrival aircraft and an aircraft that is holding on runway(s) that intersect(s):
?Delta One, runway four, position and hold, traffic landing runway three-one.?
?United Five, runway three-one, cleared to land. Traffic holding in position runway four.?
or, when issuing traffic information to a departing aircraft and an aircraft that is holding on runway(s) that intersect(s):
?Delta One, runway three-one, position and hold, traffic departing runway four.?
?United Five, runway four, cleared for takeoff, traffic holding runway three-one.?

l. When a local controller delivers or amends an ATC clearance to an aircraft waiting departure and that aircraft is holding short of a runway or is holding in position on a runway, an additional clearance shall be issued to prevent the possibility of the aircraft inadvertently taxiing onto the runway and/or beginning takeoff roll. In such cases, append one of the following ATC instructions as appropriate:
1. HOLD SHORT OF RUNWAY, or
2. HOLD IN POSITION.

m. USAF/USN. When issuing additional instructions or information to an ircraft holding in takeoff position, include instructions to continue holding or taxi off the runway, unless it is cleared for takeoff.
PHRASEOLOGY−
CONTINUE HOLDING,
or
TAXI OFF THE RUNWAY.
 
Last edited:
RobW said:
It applies to all airports, but each facility can put in for a waiver based on traffic and conditions. You will probably see that most places that need position and hold, will continue on as before.

Our regional Atl airport, KLZU, busy single runway, stopped this quite some time ago and it means long lines and holds. Drives us all crazy. Thanks for letting us know that there is a waiver provision. Ill ask my tower about it.

Best,
 
Yep, No "position and hold" today at KHLN. I was up in the Citabria today, so was a Student pilot in a 172. A pilatus was stuck waiting for 2 others inbound, we got extended. all due to no position and hold option. The Tower guys told everyone to write a letter or make a phone call to complain. They don't like it either.

One positive though, I got several: "Left (or right)turn approved as soon as altitude and speed permit." Got to buzz the airport managers office on one trip. Another time I had the Tower inspect the belly of the citabria. Alos got to do short approach engine out from abeam the numbers. Grreat practice. :D
 
As I read the new language, the problem seems to be:

"Do not issue a clearance to an aircraft requesting a full-stop, touch-and-go, stop-and-go, option, or unrestricted low approach on the same runway with an aircraft that is holding in position, taxiing into position or has been cleared to taxi into position and hold until the aircraft in position starts takeoff roll. Do not clear an aircraft to TIPH if an aircraft has been cleared to land, touch-and-go, stop-and-go, option, or unrestricted low approach on the same runway."

This suggests to me that TIPH isn't banned, but you can't have an aircraft already cleared to land while someone gets TIPH or can't clear someone to land if someone is already TIPH. Am I reading this right?

I can't wait to try this out at ADS on a busy day :(
 
Position and hold at an uncontrolled airport

There was previously a question regarding the use of position and hold at an uncontrolled airport. If you routinely use position and hold at an uncontrolled airport I would urge you to consider discontinuing the practice in the interest of safety. Consider that when you taxi into position and hold at an uncontrolled airport, you have no extra set of eyes in a control tower looking out for you. You are trusting that the traffic you saw on final/base/downwind is far enough away to let you slip out after the dawdler has cleared the runway. Guess what. The dawdler may take the whole runway to clear. Other traffic, now out of your sight, can pop up on close final behind you. Often you will get training flights simulating engine failures, and flying a spiral pattern to a close in final. Raise you hands if this has ever happened to you (my hand is up). In the meantime, you?re just sitting there tying up landing traffic, which you can?t even see, and possibly that can?t see you. I have to admit to using it on occasion in the past, and I often see it used around my home airport, but is it really worth the risk? IMHO, position and hold at an uncontrolled airport is an accident waiting to happen.

Fly Safely,
Ken - ATP/CFII/MEI
 
Position & Hold

zilik said:
They yanked our postion and hold privs last year after a couple of incidents after the tower muffed up and had one on the runway and the plane on final cleared to land. It was not the pilots fault but the pilots get the brunt of it. Of course at a non-towered field you can still do it.

Gary

You need to look at the latest AIM. "Position & Hold" was a towered airport practice only and not only discouraged at nontowered, but considered a safety violation.

That doesn't mean it doesn't happen at nontowered airports across the country. We have a flight school at Hicks (T67) that does it on a daily basis.

At a monthly safety meeting their chief flight instructor said that he absolutely does not condone that practice. That meeting was over two years ago, that "chief" is still there and now he's on the local FAAST team and they still do "position and hold", even with someone in the pattern trying to land.

Go figure! :mad:

Fly friendly & fly safe! :)
 
faasafety.gov email pertaining to TIPH

Got this email from faasafety.gov today.
(I'm on the email distribution list)

=====================================
InFO - Taxi into Position and Hold (TIPH) - Guidance for Pilots
Notice Number: NOTC0780
The latest InFO is now available for download at:
http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/airline_operators/airline_safety/info/all_infos/
SUBJECT:
Taxi into Position and Hold (TIPH) -- Guidance for Pilots
PURPOSE:
This InFO announces important new ATC procedures and phraseology to improve runway safety, effective Feb. 5, 2007, and recommends pertinent safe practices for pilots.
An InFO contains valuable information for operators that should help them meet certain administrative, regulatory, or operational requirements with relatively low urgency or impact on safety. If you have questions about this or any InFO please contact the Air Transportation Division, AFS-200 at (202) 267-8166.
NEW - Try looking at this information and other valuable resources found on FAASafety.gov and the Aviation Learning Center. Follow this link: http://faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/lib_main.aspx and then type in the keywords: runway safety
You will find this document ready for searching, printing and downloading as well as hundreds of other seminars, courses, and information on runway safety.
You have received this notice from FAASafety.gov because you have selected "Local Air Safety Information" in your preferences on your FAASafety.gov account. Click here to log in and edit your preferences on FAASafety.gov. Safety is a learned behavior...Learn to be safer at the Learning Center found on FAASafety.gov FAASafety.gov | ===================================
 
TIPH

Kahuna said:
Our regional Atl airport, KLZU, busy single runway, stopped this quite some time ago and it means long lines and holds. Drives us all crazy. Thanks for letting us know that there is a waiver provision. Ill ask my tower about it.

Best,

I should clarify. Previously (last fall till 2-5), you needed a "waiver". Now, if certain parameters are met, ie ground, local, clearence are not combined, a local order may be put in place, provided justification can be shown, allowing TIPH. Of course "justified" is a call that will probably not be made locally. Additionally, TIPH is not allowed when positions are combined, which is common at smaller airports.

Usual disclaimers apply, all are opinions open to comment, correction, or outright personal attack

Rob
 
Weird. We had three TIPH's issued to us TODAY in the King Air. One at Bloomington (BMI), one at South Bend (SBN), and one at Indy Int'l (IND). Never heard of this going away until I read it here... :confused:
 
Last edited:
Link to info

I have spent some time trying to find a link to the latest document. I do not like the ones that have 5 Feb 2007 and say cancelled.

The FAA Link that was in the email that several of us get does not have the latest document. Searching from that site for "TIPH" I think I found the latest document.

http://www.faa.gov/runwaysafety/pdf/TIPHpilots.pdf

The title is: Taxi into Position and Hold (TIPH): Guidance for Pilots

The Other_DougReeves posted links to what appear to be the same two links contained in the above document.

Hope this helps us that occassional operate out of Delta Airspace to get a better understanding of the change.

I never liked holding on the runway unless I knew no one was on final and I was going to be released soon. When I have had concerns in the past about the TIPH clearance, I have been know to say: "RV 7GS HOLDING SHORT ready for IMMEDIATE EXPIDATED Takeoff."

I still remember when the airliner landed on top of the comuter aircaft at LAX.
 
I haven't read the new rules, but the old one had a provision for waivers. Howevere contracts towers are not elegible for the waiver, so only big airport will be able to continue to do TIPH. The intent of the rule was to stop TIPH at the big airports where accidents have happened in the past, but somehow we're the one who're getting screwed.
 
John, were you at IND when the snow was piling up? :eek: I was stuck at Raytheon for 7 hours on the 6th! :rolleyes: