[Ironflight]

I got our Oshkosh 2010 NOTAM book in the mail yesterday, which was a good reminder that it is never too early to go out and start flying around at 90 knots for awhile. I’d bet that most RV’ers don’t’ go out and do this near often enough – and many don’t think about it until they are coming up on Ripon during their trek to Oshkosh. Ninety Knots is the magic number on the “Low Road” for the Fisk Arrival (and while some argue that they can just speed up and take the “High road”, that is not the interpretation given before by the FAA – which means you can be cited for “Careless and Reckless” if you ignore the NOTAM – and let’s face it, Oshkosh is CRAWLING with Feds!), and RV’s are very capable of flying that speed, so it’s a good idea to make sure the pilot is as well.

I went out for my annual simulation this morning and tooled along our local countryside with 85 degree OAT’s and 90 on the speed tape. It REALLY feels slow if you haven’t done it for awhile. It’s probably a good idea to go to altitude and slow down from 90 to the stall a few times, so you realize just how much margin you have at 90 – very comforting, as a matter of fact. I think that the trickiest part of the arrival is not maintaining the speed – it is maintaining the speed with my eyes OUTSIDE the cockpit. RV’s are slippery enough that a small power or pitch change is going to make a difference, and at peak traffic times on the arrival, the LAST place you want your eyes is the on the panel.

So I like to go out and hit the speed, then stop looking inside and fly with my eyes out for a couple of minutes – then glance back in to see how well I did on airspeed and altitude. It can be sobering, and lead to more practice. I’ll be honest, my biggest concern about flying in to Oshkosh are the folks who fly about 50 hours a year – and half of that is going to, and returning from, Oshkosh. It takes some measure of skill to fly precisely, and precision is required to fit in on the road from Ripon to Fisk. And even if you’re not going to Oshkosh, there’s no harm in brushing up your skills for the next time you have to follow a Cub in the traffic pattern at your home field…:

Paul

 

[IowaRV9Dreamer]

don't run over us slow guys

Thanks for posting this Paul. I'm planning my first flight to OSH this year... and 90 kts for me is somewhere between cruise and WOT. So thanks for reminding everyone so I won't get run over by an RV

I'll have to go practice and see if I can get used to flying that fast!

 

[jbDC9]

Practicing holding 'er steady at 90 kts is a great idea, but my experience last year shows it might be prudent to practice even a bit slower; I got stuck behind a Kitfox who was waffling along somewhere around 70 kts. But wait, it gets better! I was doing fine in trail behind him doing the left hand pattern to 18... we're heading east along the road approaching the turn point for the downwind leg. The Kitfox just kept puttering along eastbound, headed for the lake... he just had no freakin' clue as to what was going on. Eventually he meandered northward on a sort-of downwind out by the lake.

Like Paul said, it's guys like this that worry me.

 

[plehrke]

I started practicing 90 kts last week. I am located at an airport under a Class B right next to the inner circle and wedge next to a Class D so I need to fly 10 miles at 1000 agl to get to the airport. Starting in June after many of my flights, I start practicing 90 kts for that last 10 nm at 1000 agl. Gets me plenty ready for OSH.

 

[Mike D]

Passengers get nervous too

I started doing this back a few months to get Canh (the wife) and I used to flying that slow. I don?t want her worrying we are going to fall out of the air and I need the practice. I will have to be honest and say if I was heading into OSH at 70kts, I would be nervous cause it feels like you are not even moving. I come over the fence faster than that.

 

[painless]

I would also suggest practicing keeping your patterns tight as well.

 

[tomwebster]

I have been slow flying in the pattern
and found I like to extend some flap because
we have some LSA and antique aircraft at our
airport plus the thought of OSH coming up.
I thought 20 degrees would be best but have
found that 10 degrees works better for me.
It also gives me a better sight picture of traffic
in the pattern.

How much flap deployment have others used for
slow flight, if any?

Thanks, Tom

 

[gasman]

Go and practice using one notch of flaps and fly at 61 kts (70 mph). Then you will be ready for 90 kts (103 mph) with no problem.

 

[plehrke]

One notch of flaps and fly at 70 mph. Then you will be ready for 90 mph with no problem.

NOTAM is 90 kts (not mph)

 

[Geico266]

Excellant thread Paul! It's never too early!

Here is the link for anyone to order the NOTAM. You must have a copy in your plane!

https://secure.eaa.org/airventure/notam_request.html


I would just like to add a few points to those who may be new to flying into OSH.
1. Don't be intimidated, be prepared.
2. Do not do a manuver that you have not practiced in the last 30 days. You are PIC.
3. Plan to enter Ripon at 7:45 - 8:00am, there is VERY LITTLE traffic early in the AM. This is the best kept "secret" of flying into OSH.
4. There is NOTHING like flying into OSH. Put it on your bucket list and do it!

 

[Rick6a]

NOTAM is 90 kts (not mph)

Excellent point, Phil. Last year, we made the trip to Oshkosh in a Baron and our pilot had no trouble maintaining 90 knots while following a long line of traffic during a very busy period of inbound arrivals. At 103.57 MPH, that is a bit faster than max flap extension speed on our RV's. As a community, we have to question the skill set of any RV driver who would seriously consider entering and flying the higher pattern. That mindset virtually shouts out loud that pilot would do well to burnish a neglected and marginal skill set if only for the safety of others.

 

[Mel]

I thought 20 degrees would be best but have
found that 10 degrees works better for me.
It also gives me a better sight picture of traffic
in the pattern.
How much flap deployment have others used for
slow flight, if any?
Thanks, Tom

My testing has shown that 15 degrees works best for slow flight. This is pretty much maximum lift for minimum drag. This is the same as the "down" travel of the ailerons, so for short field take-off, I recommend lowering the flaps to match the "down" aileron.

I have my manual flap bar cut for 13, 26, and 39 degrees, so I use one notch (13 degrees) for slow flight and take-off.

 

[Mel]

At 103.57 MPH, that is a bit faster than max flap extension speed on our RV's. As a community, we have to question the skill set of any RV driver who would seriously consider entering and flying the higher pattern. That mindset virtually shouts out loud that pilot would do well to burnish a neglected and marginal skill set if only for the safety of others.

The 100 mph limit is, like you say is for "max full flap extension speed". You can use 110 mph for up to 20 degrees.
Not sure about the later plans, but this is listed in my RV-6 plans

 

[Ironflight]

Let's not confuse "90 knots" and "slow flight" folks. "Slow Flight" is about 25 - 30 knots SLOWER than what we should be maintaining on the Fisk approach, and if you get down in that regime (due to slower traffic in front of you), the NOTAM says to break out and go back to find someone else to follow.

Sure, the guy in front of you is at fault - but if the guy in front of you gets slow, you are going to naturally fly a little slower, and the guy behind you will do the same thing - until the 6th guy in line is WAY slow, hanging on the stall, overheating, and cussing out everyone in front of him. Bad way to start your Oshkosh Experience, in my book!

Oh, yes - absolutely practice Slow Flight!! Just don't think that is what you're doing if you're doing the Fisk Dance correctly....

Paul

 

[John Clark]

We have this discussion every year!

I have read the NOTAM and nowhere does it say type of aircraft take the low route or high route.

OK so it doesn't list it by type of aircraft, can you imagine the list for every thing that arrives at KOSH? What is does cover is the capabilities of the aircraft. On page 4 of the Notam it states:

Altitude/Airspeed - Approach Ripon at either 1,800' or 2,300' MSL. Maintani 90 knots at 1,800' (or maximum cruise speed if less than 90 knots). If unable, maintain 135 knots at 2,300'.

If you are flying an RV you are "able," if you are flying a C17 you belong on the turbine/warbird arrival.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

 

[Ironflight]

Sorry, safety here buds.

Safety ALWAYS here bud....whch is why the NOTAM tells you that if you get stuck behind someone slow you break out, and go find another slot. Making up your own rules (or deciding that the written rules don't apply to you) doesn't add to safety at all - it degrades it for everyone, because then folks are operating from different pages.

Yup, that is "soapbox mode" for me - sorry if it offends, but probably the most dangerous flying I do all year is getting in to the Oshkosh environment, primarily because some folks aren't all following the procedures. If you don't like 'em, (or don't think they are safe), then don't go - but please don't make up your own.

Paul

 

[Capflyer]

Every year it seems someone in front of me forgets that their airspeed indicator is in mph instead of kts and they end up flying 90mph. Bouncing around at 80kts in prop wash while within 100lbs of max gross weight definitely takes some practice.

As Mel said, put in 10 degrees of flaps....or even 15 degrees, what ever works best for your plane. It does a couple of things for you. First you get some added lift with only a slight penalty for the extra drag and second, very importantly, it keeps the nose of your plane down so you don't feel like your hanging on the prop all the way in from Ripon.

 

[slyfox]

Just remember one thing. They want an even flow into OSH. If things are crazy and it's safer to go up and run a steady 130kts into osh than do it. If the way is clear and 90kts is possible, than run that into osh. The choice is ours. Our airplanes can run either so figure the route that is safest and do it. whether it be high or low. Chances are that the high route will be out because of ceiling minimums anyway. I'm sure if you chose the high route and you ran in with no interference at all the controllers on the ground will be very thankful that you weren't down below with a bunch of 60square airplanes and totally screwing up the system. Like always run with the flow and do whats best at the time.

 

[John Clark]

From the source

Just remember one thing. They want an even flow into OSH. If things are crazy and it's safer to go up and run a steady 130kts into osh than do it. If the way is clear and 90kts is possible, than run that into osh. The choice is ours. Our airplanes can run either so figure the route that is safest and do it. whether it be high or low. Chances are that the high route will be out because of ceiling minimums anyway. I'm sure if you chose the high route and you ran in with no interference at all the controllers on the ground will be very thankful that you weren't down below with a bunch of 60square airplanes and totally screwing up the system. Like always run with the flow and do whats best at the time.

The EAA/FAA doesn't quite see it that way. From the EAA website:

ALTITUDES AND AIRSPEEDS - VFR ARRIVAL PROCEDURE RIPON TO FISK

PLEASE COMPLY WITH THESE SPEED RESTRICTIONS. We know that some of your aircraft are capable of going much faster, and some wish they could cruise at 90 knots. These speed restrictions assist us (ATC) in delivering an orderly and manageable flow of traffic to the control tower, as well as to the volunteers on the ground that assist in your parking at the airport.

1,800' msl at 90 knots/104 mph, if unable

2,300' msl at 135 knots/155 mph.

UNLESS SPECIFICALLY APPROVED BY ATC - DO NOT EXCEED 135 knots!

Do not utilize the 2,300' pattern just because your aircraft is capable of flying at 135 knots. It makes it much easier for ATC to develop a sequence if everyone is at 1,800!

For those with a little less horsepower and a lot more drag maintain a speed as close to 90 knots/104 mph as possible!

IF YOU ARE CAPABLE OF UTILIZING THE 1,800' PATTERN, PLEASE DO SO :

ALL aircraft will be required to be level at, or descending to 1,800' MSL, departing Fisk!

When only one runway is available for arrivals, which occurs frequently and often with little notice, (or if the weather does not allow for operations at 2,300' msl) please do your best to blend with the 90 knot traffic at 1800' MSL.

The "Ripon to Fisk" arrival procedure is not tailored to the airspeeds or lack of maneuverability associated with "big and fast" aircraft.

TWIN TURBOPROP aircraft should utilize the "Turbine/Warbird Arrival Procedure". (see NOTAM page 16 for details)

HELICOPTER arrivals should utilize the "Helicopter Arrival Procedure". (See NOTAM page 18 for details)

ATC often requires aircraft to "make a 360? turn" to achieve the desired separation prior to departing Fisk inbound to the airport.

This will often occur in the immediate vicinity, if not directly over Fisk! Please be prepared to respond to this request!

In order for this procedure to work properly / efficiently pilots need to be capable of flying reasonably slow and maneuvering (making 360? turns) safely within a reasonably small radius.

Please take into consideration what is best for the overall operation when making decisions concerning altitudes and airspeeds!

The success of this procedure depends upon each and everyone one of us, ATC and pilots, WORKING TOGETHER to make a safe, efficient arrival into AirVenture!


John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

 

[JonJay]

Good Idea to Check you Oil Temps too!

You may be in sustained slow flight for longer than you might think. I was stuck holding over the lake for over an hour as the air show went longer than expected. I have great oil temps and I run cool but I still saw 210f, 30 deg more than what I normally see in cruise. If you have border line oil temps, and it is a hot day, better to know how slow flight might affect your temps.
Fly long enough to make sure you don't have a problem.

 

[Steve]

And practice with the group

you want to park with keeping the half-mile-in-trail spacing in mind.
PS
For the knot-challenged (self included) 90 kts equates to 103 mph IAS.

 

[David-aviator]

My two cents worth is this - 90 knots is too fast for the low altitude arrival because there are airplanes that can not fly that fast at WOT. There ought to be a separate altitude and approach for such machines as there will be more and more of them with LSA's entering the show.

There is nothing safe about airplanes at less than 90 knots causing trailing airplanes to break out and head back to Ripon. This causes border line chaos at Ripon with airplanes coming in from every direction.

The arrival procedure makes provision for fast airplanes, there needs to be one for the guys in LSA's that are incapable of 90 knots. This disparity at the low speed range is a safety factor and needs to be looked. Breaking out and heading back to Ripon is not in the interest of safety. It may be convenient for ATC but it is not a good situation at Ripon while the slow guy is loafing along with open airspace in front of him to the airport.

 

[Jamie]

Ok, I am guilty -- I flew the high route.

Of course, I only flew the high route because the controllers were repeatedly saying "if you are inbound and can do 135kts get up there for us". I felt sort of silly up there as I flew over the top of three v-tail Bonanza's in a row. I guess my point is, be prepared for anything and don't just blindly follow the NOTAM while controllers are explicitly giving you different instructions.

 

[dedgemon]

Ok, I am guilty -- I flew the high route.

Of course, I only flew the high route because the controllers were repeatedly saying "if you are inbound and can do 135kts get up there for us". I felt sort of silly up there as I flew over the top of three v-tail Bonanza's in a row. I guess my point is, be prepared for anything and don't just blindly follow the NOTAM while controllers are explicitly giving you different instructions.

An RV passing Bonanza's doesn't sound so unusual!!

 

[jrs14855]

OSHKOSH

The one thing I haven't seen mentioned is what I consider the most dangerous runway configuration at OSH, a runway 18 landing with significant tailwind on base leg. Several accidents over the years from people not allowing for the tailwind on base and yanking the airplane around trying to get lined up with the runway. So another good thing to practice at home would be a very close in base leg, rolling out on final below 200 agl. Approach this gradually until you can do this without even looking at the airspeed.
Regarding the 90 kt issue, this is a HUGE margin over stall. Slow flight by FAA definition is 5 kts above stall, which would be a bit over 60 statute in the RV6, depending on flap configuration.