Dayton Murdock

Well Known Member
Hi All
There?s my question, what technique do you use for landing your RV tail dragger at night? Yesterday at dust I was practicing wheel landing in my 4. I fly down final at 70kts with 1200 rpm?s ? flaps, level off over the runway and let the speed bleed off, the tires are touching down at 50-53kts I relieve back pressure to hold the tail up and keep the wheels on the ground and smoothly pull the power off. All the while keeping the longitudinal axis of the aircraft align with the direction of flight. I believe that wheel landing at night may be a better choice then 3 pointing.
 
I have a harmon rocket (and '48 cessna140) so I have a much longer nose with no visibility so I keep the tail up as long as possible before letting it come down and looking out the sides.

I wanted to mention that I got a real eye opener on my first night landing in the HR2. I have GRT dual horizons, when i got down to the runway and started hunting for it; i realized i was blinded by the screens and they were also reflecting badly in the canopy.

anybody making their first night landings-- please turn your dimmers down.
 
No to wheel landings for me usually, day or night

Hi All, I believe that wheel landing at night may be a better choice then 3 pointing.
There have been many three pointer v wheel landing discussions on VAF forums. My feeling day or night, especially in a RV-4, there are no true three point landings, usually the mains touch first than the tail. If you try for a three pointer you usually touch the tail wheel first than the mains drop or are slapped down from a foot or more. The holy grail of three points just does not apply to RV's in my opinion. If all three wheels touch at the same time you got lucky, but its still far from full stall.

To be honest in my personal preference and opinion, I don't believe in "wheel landings" as the preferred standard operating procedure, day or night. It means extra speed and power to land which means more runway. If its windy yes carry more speed, but to carry more speed to see over the nose more is not really needed, simply because RV's have good forward vis with a typical tail low "two point" landing attitude. When its windy w/ a cross wind, I do "wheel it on". Since its a cross wind and I'm landing in a side-slip, I touch down on one (up-wind) wheel. That is a wheel landing and the only time I use wheel landings. However "wheel it on" with both mains touching down at the same time, is not really an advantage to me over the slower tail low method for typical winds (lower velocities and x-wind component.)

Definitions to me:
Wheel landing: Landing in a level attitude on mains, accomplished by carrying speed and some power on touch down and a fwd stick to stick the mains on the runways, often used in windy conditions for better control. Also planes like P-51 with ZERO fwd vis with tail wheel on ground, so often their pilots choose to "fly it on" to give better visibility.

Three Pointer: This is synonyms with a FULL STALL landing and all three wheels touch the runway at the same time. You can think back to your C-150/152 says when you had the stall horn blaring as you touch down in a nose high attitude with the rear tie down ring almost dragging on the asphalt.

"Two Pointer": What I do in RV's, tail low but still landing on mains first at the magic speed that is above stall but not such a high (energy) airspeed, that a bounce or increase in angle of attack would make you fly/climb significantly. Its between a wheel landing and a three pointer, closer to the three pointer.

Some planes (like RV's) in a true full stall landing attitude touch the tail wheel well before the mains, which may still be a foot or more off the runway.

Speed does add control. Full stall landings are over rated, however fast landing are terrible as well. Speed control is key, day or night. Touch down at target speed is key. What speed is that? I don't know; I don't look. Its a combo of setting an attitude and vision (mostly peripheral) to judge height above runway and sink rate. It's done subconsciously almost with out thinking. The "two pointer" attitude visibility over the nose of a RV is very good any way.

In my opinion over the nose vision is not critical during touch down. Also at night ("black hole" landing) you assume you have almost NO vision any way.

I do make a little change for "BLACK HOLE" landings, adding some speed, but it's still well below the speed / power for a true "wheel landing". In any plane I land a little faster on dark nights, but wheel landings means landing even faster, thus using more runway. That may be fine if you have the runway to use.

My technique changes a little from day to night as follows: At night I'll setup the magic 2-pt tail low attitude, with a tad more power than day time. I'll squeeze the power off more slowly, letting the wheels "feel" for the dirt and pull the power to idle when they touch down, not really flaring with stick. Landing/touch down is a little faster than day, but I'm still not trying for a wheel landing. I'm also not looking for more visibility over the nose, because in theory there's little to be had with a "black hole" landing. I'm just setting up the landing attitude, not flaring and just letting the plane settle with power. This is similar to what float-plane guys do on glassy water, feeling for the surface with a little power.

During the day its basically the same as night, with one change. During the day, I'll commit to idle much sooner out of standard procedure when I'm close to touch down. This gets the wheels on the ground and stopped sooner. Unlike the night where I hold the stick fairly still, pulling the power back to settle, during the day time I go to idle and use the stick to "hold it off" or flair, timing the touch down.

Trying for a "wheel landing" at night could be trouble? Assume its a "black hole" situation and you set up for a wheel landing with more power, speed and level landing attitude, but you don't notice your sink rate, due to lack of depth perception. You hit fairly hard and you are going flying again, real fast and high with that extra energy. Feeling for the runway in a "two pointer" attitude at slower speed will make the bounce less aggressive. If you do bounce hard, a go-around may be in order. On the other hand, if you go to idle and flare too high, stalling and dropping it in when the wing stops flying, will be a nasty surprise as well.

Wheel landings does give more fwd vis, true, but RV's have good fwd vis in three points. There is almost no Vis limitation in a tail low "two point" attitude. I use peripheral vision more than long vision down the runway at touch down any way. Just my opinion, and to each his own. The only downer of a true wheel landing, LEVER ATTITUDE AT TOUCH DOWN, is you are carrying extra speed and thus using more runway, rubber and brakes, but do what makes you comfortable.
 
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I have 1200 hours on my RV-4, and I land the airplane virtually the same at night as I do during the day. I believe that consistency keeps things safer, at least for me. I always land three point, although I agree with the previous post about the -4 not really being able to make a full stall, three point landing.

The typical is that the tailwheel hits slightly first, then the mains. I keep the bounce to a minimum by watching airspeed control very closely. It's not really relevant to talk about specific airspeeds, as each plane has its own indicated airspeed errors. I know what my speeds should be, and I follow those closely until short final. Then I use the visual clues to initiate the flare, and hold off the plane in the three point attitude until touchdown, and apply full aft stick at that time. So far so good for me. I land 'three' point in all conditions, including healthy crosswinds, and I have yet to have a problem with the ground handling...I believe in part because of good airspeed control.

As the original poster stated, doing touch and go's from just before sunset into dark gives you the 'feel' for the different visual clues you need to use with regard to initiating the flare.

Tom
 
There have been many three pointer v wheel landing discussions on VAF forums. My feeling day or night, especially in a RV-4, there are no true three point landings, usually the mains touch first than the tail. If you try for a three pointer you usually touch the tail wheel first than the mains drop or are slapped down from a foot or more. The holy grail of three points just does not apply to RV's in my opinion. If all three wheels touch at the same time you got lucky, but its still far from full stall...
I agree, even with the tall gear on my -4, full stall landings are impossible. But I don?t see why this would pose a problem for anyone attempting the ?holy grail of three points?.

With only about 25 hours in my -4, I?m still learning, but most of my landings are three points, although sometimes the tailwheel will touch slightly before the mains (perfectly acceptable in my book) and sometimes the mains touch first (unacceptable, but hopefully this will stop as I get more experience). It seems obvious to me that those who drop the mains from a foot or more are just pulling the nose up way too high.
 
I agree, even with the tall gear on my -4, full stall landings are impossible. But I don?t see why this would pose a problem for anyone attempting the ?holy grail of three points?.

With only about 25 hours in my -4, I?m still learning, but most of my landings are three points, although sometimes the tailwheel will touch slightly before the mains (perfectly acceptable in my book) and sometimes the mains touch first (unacceptable, but hopefully this will stop as I get more experience). It seems obvious to me that those who drop the mains from a foot or more are just pulling the nose up way too high.

With over 3200 touch and go's in my kitfox this year, I have to say that I try all kinds of landings to keep myself from getting bored. I on occation will stall drop the fox about 3ft off the runway for practice, why? if I have to do an off field landing, this IS how I will do it. When I want to do a short landing this IS how I do it. I did one today, I pulled that nose up and it just drops onto the runway, very little runout with no bounce, and most important the nose is high, so if there is any obstruction or holes in the landing area I won't have to worry about a flip. I practice this landing with no power and with a little power, with power I add power just before I stall.

I always land at night with a three point, I come in, watch the vasi for proper glide path, I then get my speed and put the airplane in a nice nose high level just right for landing three point and then use the throttle to bring in a proper airspeed and decent, then just wait for the touch on the runway. To align yourself on the runway just look to the sides and judge the centering with the runway lights, I don't use any landing lights so alignment is easy, once a couple feet off the strobes light up the runway. I land at night quit often.
 
one thing I know

Dont aim for the green, plan a touchdown farther on. I was landing an arrow at a strange filed one night, and aiming for the green, when suddenly I had a face full of trees (this was in the days before we had VASI). Some airports dont have good obstacle clearence and if you dont have a VASI, dont aim for the green at a strange airport.
I dont know about the RV, but Ive landed the C170, C140, and C180 at night. I always stall it in at night. To Me wheel landings at night are a bit tricky and if your to high or to low it can cause you problems. I can hang there in a stall and play it up or down with power as I search for the hard stuff. I guess you can do the same whit a wheelie, but Ive just always stalled it.
 
Dont aim for the green, plan a touchdown farther on. I was landing an arrow at a strange filed one night, and aiming for the green, when suddenly I had a face full of trees (this was in the days before we had VASI). Some airports dont have good obstacle clearence and if you dont have a VASI, dont aim for the green at a strange airport.
I dont know about the RV, but Ive landed the C170, C140, and C180 at night. I always stall it in at night. To Me wheel landings at night are a bit tricky and if your to high or to low it can cause you problems. I can hang there in a stall and play it up or down with power as I search for the hard stuff. I guess you can do the same whit a wheelie, but Ive just always stalled it.

wheelie's for me are landings on one wheel, very fun. With the clear bubble doors I put the left wheel on centerline and then run it on one wheel until I get bored or want to land. Many times I'll go between the two front wheels. Another fun one is to touch on the rear wheel and run it a while on the tail wheel. And of course another fun one is to run the runway and flat turn and pick different spots on the runway and make multiple touches. Sometimes I'll go between the grass field and the asphalt, another fun one. Of course I do get complaints, people think I'm being careless, but I know better. These things prepare you for when canadian geese fly up in front of you on take off. Or when an idiot decides to pull out on the runway for take off, but that one doesn't happen now does it.
 
Night currency...

Yesterday I had my BFR, which went very well. The instructor asked me if I had flown the -9 at night. This got me thinking that with the shorter days of winter coming I thought now might be good to get my currency back. (The reason for the laps in night flying is that all the airplanes I had been flying for the past 20 years didn?t have electrical systems.)

Having just checked my log book, my last night flight was November 13, 1987, which makes me think I might be a little rusty.

Other than the required three take off and full stop landings, what else should I do to bring myself up to speed?
 
Start at dusk

Hi Bill,
You probably recall that your depth perception at night is quite a bit different because in one case you're using the rods in your eyes and the other, the cones. If you'll start flying about 20 minutes before its really dark, you'll have a gradual adjustment to the dark of night and it's often an easier transition. At night the runway will usually be closer than you think.

Regards,
 
Other than the required three take off and full stop landings, what else should I do to bring myself up to speed?

Personally I'd plan about a 2-hour multi-hop trip, leaving at dusk. I'd throw in some big runways and some smaller runways as well. By the time you get home, it's dark, but you've been "tapering up" to it with some variation and several landings thrown in. Just my 2 cents.