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Nick P

I'm New Here
Hello;

I'm new here. I go by Nick P. I am considering building my first aircraft. I have narrowed my choices to a couple all Metal designs. I am considering building an RV-4. I guess my first question is should I buy the whole kit or start with the empennage then move on etc? I thought maybe buying the whole thing at once would save a little cash vs buying piece meal and paying shipping on each kit. I don't know just thinking out loud here. Second question, can an RV-4 be built in a 1 car garage? We actually have a two car garage, but 1/2 is taken up by the family's junk. "My half" is currently occupied but can easily be emptied. Third question relates to these aircraft tool kits. I've been looking at a basic aircraft tool kit but man, the prices for so little that you get in the kit is mind boggling. I have a pretty good amount of tools now, so would only have to get the aircraft specific tools that I don't currently own. I already have a compressor(60 gal IR floor mount), and a bunch of air tools that I acquired when I restored my old army truck. I think I could probably get away with what I have and just buy tools that I'd need as I went along.

Now don't take offense to this one, but has anyone bought tools from HarborFreight? I can get things like and an air riveter from them for about 25% less than these aircraft tool companies. I know it isn't going to be of the same quality but I have used HF tools on other projects (non-aircraft related) for years and have not had any problems. I need to look at things from a cheapskate's perspective if I am going to be able to afford an aircraft of any kind some day. I know I should buy the best I can but for a tool that's only going to be used for one project I just can't see spending the kind of money they are asking for these "tool kits". I can see myself buying the specialized tools and then using whatever else I can get by with from other sources. What are must have RV tools that I just would have to bite the bullet and buy?

Well, that's all I can think of at the moment. I hope you can bear with me and will put up with any newbie questions I may toss out there.
 
Welcome Nick. Newbies welcome!!!

1. Buy just the empennage kit for now.
2. Yes, many RV-4s have been built (mostly) in a 1 car garage
3. I own some HF tools, but I bought from a lot of places (Avery, HF, Brown, etc.). Spend time in the classifieds section here daily and you'll find good used tools.

Welcome again,
Doug



Nick P said:
Hello;

I'm new here. I go by Nick P. I am considering building my first aircraft. I have narrowed my choices to a couple all Metal designs. I am considering building an RV-4. I guess my first question is should I buy the whole kit or start with the empennage then move on etc? I thought maybe buying the whole thing at once would save a little cash vs buying piece meal and paying shipping on each kit. I don't know just thinking out loud here. Second question, can an RV-4 be built in a 1 car garage? We actually have a two car garage, but 1/2 is taken up by the family's junk. "My half" is currently occupied but can easily be emptied. Third question relates to these aircraft tool kits. I've been looking at a basic aircraft tool kit but man, the prices for so little that you get in the kit is mind boggling. I have a pretty good amount of tools now, so would only have to get the aircraft specific tools that I don't currently own. I already have a compressor(60 gal IR floor mount), and a bunch of air tools that I acquired when I restored my old army truck. I think I could probably get away with what I have and just buy tools that I'd need as I went along.

Now don't take offense to this one, but has anyone bought tools from HarborFreight? I can get things like and an air riveter from them for about 25% less than these aircraft tool companies. I know it isn't going to be of the same quality but I have used HF tools on other projects (non-aircraft related) for years and have not had any problems. I need to look at things from a cheapskate's perspective if I am going to be able to afford an aircraft of any kind some day. I know I should buy the best I can but for a tool that's only going to be used for one project I just can't see spending the kind of money they are asking for these "tool kits". I can see myself buying the specialized tools and then using whatever else I can get by with from other sources. What are must have RV tools that I just would have to bite the bullet and buy?

Well, that's all I can think of at the moment. I hope you can bear with me and will put up with any newbie questions I may toss out there.
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DR is right....

Nick, Welcome....!

Even if you have the resources to order all four kits, don't. Buy the emp. kit. It is a good measuring stick to see if you are up to the task of building this airplane. Heaven forbid that this is too daunting a task for you, better to figure it out after 1300 ish than 16-17k ish. :)

I have pneumatic shears, and a die grinder from HF that have been happily running for 4 years with heavy use. That said, don't go cheap on a drill. Buy a GOOD one. You will use it more than you can imagine. With all your air tools, be sure to install an air/water separator between compressor and tools. Trust me, worth every penny.

I am building in a 1.5 car garage, and have plenty of room to get around, the only problem being when I finish the fuse and hang an engine. It will get tight then. For shop setup, let me overemphasize the importance of good lighting. Go to Lowe's and buy a couple / few of the 8' high output flouro lights. AWESOME.

Now, there are many on these forums with a million times more experience on RV's than me. So the above opinions are just that. :)

Have fun, get started, and never give up.

Gregg
 
1. Tail kit first. Even better, tool kit and some sheet metal to practice on, *then* tail kit.

2. I built my -4 up through skinning the fuse in a 1 car garage. Work relocated me about that time so I moved to a hangar, the company movers got a kick out of loading the airplane.

3. I use Harbor Freight as a 'consumables' shop, and I chose carefully. Clamps, gloves, files, straightedges, and they now have bucking bars (!!!) - mostly stuff that's simple and non-precision, and very few things with moving parts. Two exceptions with moving parts are die grinders and air drills, they're usually OK, although not too long ago I ended up with an air drill that was more suited to use as a bucking bar. :D Open the box and check whatever you can, and when it fails, toss it and buy a new one. I'd spend the extra $$$ and get a better rivet gun - one with a feathering or teasing trigger. A decent gun makes a HUGE difference in quality of set rivets.

Good luck with it.
 
Nick, buying the empennage by itself makes sense for a lot of reasons for you, some of which others have already pointed out. I personally bought the empennage, wings, and fuselage kits back in January, but it was only to save on their price increases that were going to be effective Feb 1st. Still though, I only think I saved $190.00 by going that route. At the time they didn’t mention how much the increase was going to be, if I had known it was going to be that small, I probably would have just ordered the empennage for now. I perhaps will save a little bit on shipping costs too since I ordered all three at once, but empennage kit by itself isn’t all that bad. Besides, you won’t have to worry about the next price increase till next year, anyhow. And also with your space limited, you really don’t need that many unfinished parts stored in your workspace.

You’ll be surprised how many people love Harbor Freight Tools around here including me. Just on a few specific items do you need to get particular about quality, with the rivet gun being one of them. What kind of rivet gun do they have? I’d be a bit particular about it and the squeezer and a few other things in this area, not sure I'd take a chance here with HF, but honestly don’t know anything about what they carry here.
 
Newbie

Hey guys;

Thanks for the quick replies. I'm glad I didn't get any negatives regarding Harbor freight. I wasn't sure. Not being an aircraft builder(yet), I wasn't sure if HF was a taboo like it is on some of the military vehicle websites I frequent. Alot of guys there use HF tools too, but many have this elitist view that you can't get quality unless you buy a brand name. In this day and age that is just BS, as even the big names like Ingersoll Rand have gone Chinese on alot of products.

Regarding the HF riveter, the ad said it is a 3X with a teaser trigger. I must admit I don't know what 3x means. Their riveter looks to me just like their air hammer but with different attachments.

You have given me good advice on getting the empennage first. That would be a good idea and in the event it doesn't work out, I would not be out as much $. Only thing about buying piece meal that bothers me is the idea that later as I'd move to the next project, that maybe they'd change their designs and my build item wouldn't be compatible, but I guess thats not an issue?

Storage of an entire kit would be tough for me, but not impossible. I have a downstairs work room(my man cave) that I am planning to clean out to use as the initial build area and for small work, then will move to the garage for the larger portions, then at which time things like wings ,etc are built, would get stored in the man cave while the larger assemblies are built in the garage. So in essence I'd be reversing myself. Shame my wife decided to have our basement finished off last year. I could have built an entire plane in there.
 
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3X is the measure of the force the riveter can output. For a van's kit either a 2x or 3x is good. In the past when the larger rivets had to be hammered on the spars a 4x was needed just for that job, but i believe you don't need to do that on any of the kits anymore. I'm not 100% positive on that though.

oh, yeah, Van's doesn't change designs so they are non-compatible. There have been a few improvements here and there, like the 3b or -1 kits but i don't think that is any factor in your decision making- rest assured that Van's will do its best to always be there to provide you with the next kit. they have a long history of reliability in this area. They have made a decision to not allow any new 6's to be made, but anyone that started one is still supported. From their perspective the 7 replaces the 6, and except for nitpicking the differences you are a lot better off trying a 7 than a 6
 
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Like you, I had a lot of tools when I started on my plane but quickly found that aircraft construction requires a LOT of special tools.

I quickly found out that when you catch yourself saying, "I don't have the right tool but I can make so-and-so work." STOP! Order the correct tool.

Otherwise you will destroy the part you have a few hours of labor on. Then you will order the correct tool and the replacement part. Net-net, you are better off ordering the tool and waiting.

BTW, those starter kits don't include every tool you need, not by a long shot.
 
Like the others, I agree, one kit at a time. If you are worrying about space, it is less to store and you don't run into the possibility of corrosion on the edges of some parts from long storage. High humidity can be a problem. Buying tools as you need them is fine, although you will end up waiting for some of the things you need. Buying a starter kit gives you most things, and I don't think it wastes any money. Some new stuff will come along, as well as big time-savers like pneumatic squeezers. I hear Tungsten bucking bars are great, but they weren't around when I built. Do not skimp on the air drill or rivet gun! Get the best you can afford. It will show in your work, and will save you time. Souix brand is very well respected. Personally, I have very few HF tools, but they seem fine. Have fun!

Bob Kelly
 
Location

KirkGrovesRV8 said:
Nick Just curious where in SE Pa are you?
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KirkGrovesRV8;

I'm in West Grove, about 4 miles west of New Garden airport. I see your profile lists you in Paradise. I was just up that way over the weekend. Had my son enrolled in the Hunter Safety course at the Paradise gun club.
 
Nick P said:
Regarding the HF riveter, the ad said it is a 3X with a teaser trigger.
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Do you have a link? I looked at their on-line catalog, and haven?t been able to find it there.

You had mentioned other metal planes you?re also considering. I wouldn?t be a bit surprised we considered the same planes. Plenty of good ones to choose from, but I have been happy with my decision of going with a Van's aircraft and glad I went this route. This forum has also been a huge help, just not another builders group has one with this many participating.
 
Nick P said:
KirkGrovesRV8;

I'm in West Grove, about 4 miles west of New Garden airport. I see your profile lists you in Paradise. I was just up that way over the weekend. Had my son enrolled in the Hunter Safety course at the Paradise gun club.
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Wow Nick
I got my private at N57 if you in my neck of the woods again some weekend let me know I keep my 8 at S37 you are more than welcome to check it out, I would happily offer you a ride but at the moment I am still waiting on cylinders:rolleyes:
 
wrongway john said:
Do you have a link? I looked at their on-line catalog, and haven?t been able to find it there.

You had mentioned other metal planes you?re also considering. I wouldn?t be a bit surprised we considered the same planes. Plenty of good ones to choose from, but I have been happy with my decision of going with a Van's aircraft and glad I went this route. This forum has also been a huge help, just not another builders group has one with this many participating.
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Here is the link to HF's air riveter; http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=97857

I'm also considering the Thatcher CX-4(I really like this design), and the Hummelbird H5. Only problem with those is they are both plans built aircraft, and although they seem very easy to contruct, I'm not sure I want to go with a scratch built as my first attempt....Just seems like to much fabrication.........
 
KirkGrovesRV8 said:
Wow Nick
I got my private at N57 if you in my neck of the woods again some weekend let me know I keep my 8 at S37 you are more than welcome to check it out, I would happily offer you a ride but at the moment I am still waiting on cylinders:rolleyes:
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KirkGrovesRV8;

No kidding....I got my private there too. I bet we flew the same old Tomahawks they had.......I take the kids there about once a month during warm weather to sit and watch the planes. I flew in there last week with my youngest and did a few T&G's....... I'd love to stop by and see your plane.....Thanks for the offer. Can I bring the kids?

Let me know when you will be there next time, and maybe I can schedule our club's plane and fly up to Smoketown.....I'll be the one in the 1956 C172 with ailing paint......Or I can drive up there.
 
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You Bet Nick! Kids are very very welcome!
I will be at the hangar on Saturday please feel free to stop by anytime
my number is 610-283-2448
 
Smoketown.

Hmm, unfortunately I won't be able to make it up there Saturday. Pretty much have the whole day planned, with kids baseball practices and such. Sunday afternoon or early evening may be doable however.......I am scheduled to fly that day..... I could drive up if the weather isn't the best for flying.
 
Nick P said:
Here is the link to HF's air riveter; http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=97857

I'm also considering the Thatcher CX-4(I really like this design), and the Hummelbird H5. Only problem with those is they are both plans built aircraft, and although they seem very easy to contruct, I'm not sure I want to go with a scratch built as my first attempt....Just seems like to much fabrication.........
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Thanks for the link, Nick, I guess I wasn’t typing in the right search engines.

I liked the looks of both of those planes. I wasn’t even familiar with the Hummelbird H5 until I went back and took a look. I like the way they have made it look like the original Hummelbird, and were probably smart about going with a full V/W engine this time. The design load isn’t much as the original HB though. You might also have seen Bruce King’s BK-1 flier as well. The Midget Mustang is another popular choice you might consider. It was designed by an aeronautical engineer. You can often find these things for sale for 20K or less.

Building from materials is time consuming, but I had ordered Bill Spring's DVD's which did an excellent job of documenting Hummelbird's construction, and it certainly gave me the confidence to realize it wasn't going to be that bad on a small plane project like that, and it actually looked quite easy to make your parts. There were other practical reasons of why I stopped considering this plane though.

I was going to give you certain threads to read from in their forum, but I see now where they have taken them out. If you go with the HB, I would highly recommend you getting in touch with a Allen Haseldine in Great Britain. Their PFA (equivalent of EAA here in the States) discovered it needed quite a bit different modifications resolved before they would let it fly in their country. Nothing one couldn’t fix, just certain things their engineers found needed attention. They wouldn’t let it be built as designed. Their group is more stringent than the ones we have in the States. If Allen got his flying now, his was going to be the first Hummelbird approved to fly in his country. If you get serious about this plane, I’ll e-mail some of the modifications if you like.
 
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Hummelbird

Naw, I've pretty much ruled out the Hummelbird at this point. The original HB is just way too small for my fat arse, and I am not crazy about the fact that there is so far only 1 H5 in existance(so I have read). I like the look, but it would be like stuffing 10 lbs of $hit into a 5LB bag with me. I do like the Thatcher CX-4 though. Has the full Vdub, has a better useful load, and looks more like a real plane and not an overgrown toy. I have looked into the BK flier, but from what I hear that guy is being anal to the Nth degree before allowing his plans to be sold. Guess I can't blame the guy, doesn't want to get sued over a mistake in his plans, but I have heard he has been dangling the carrot so to speak about his forthcoming plans for several years now. I'm not willing to wait for that. In my case its all going to boil down to money. I know right now I can't afford to spend 40K for a plane, but maybe spaced out over time I might be able to swing it. If I sell my army truck I should be able to get started anyway. I think I can get maybe 5k for it(conservative estimate). All I know is, interest in the army truck has been waning for a couple years now, and I've wanted to build a plane for longer than I've been bald.....I have the space to build so that's not a problem, and I have a pretty good selection of tools, but i know I'd need a good deal of specialized aircraft tools. We'll see I guess. I know though if I don't make the decision soon to build I may just never be able to. I want to have done it before I'm too old and grey and before all my money goes to the kid's college. Yes, I'm a bit selfish in this regard.
 
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No problem Nick if you are out and flying feel free to give a call, chances are I will be around the hangar Sunday afternoon too;-)
 
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