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marttibenson

Member
Took the jump and started my tail kit last weekend. As of last night, I've made the HS-908 attach brackets 2 or 3 times and on of them is still 1/32 too narrow. Frustrated and not sure I've got the "right stuff" to do this.:confused:
 
This will improve, and improve rapidly.

When you're having a "bad day in the shop," sometimes it's best to give it a rest and do something else for a bit.

Over time, you'll realize both your efficiency and quality will improve. Don't sweat the early frustrations, just take a breath, and move on. If a single task seems insurmountable, get help or put it aside for a while and work on other stuff.

None of this is terribly difficult, it just takes practice
 
marttibenson said:
Took the jump and started my tail kit last weekend. As of last night, I've made the HS-908 attach brackets 2 or 3 times and on of them is still 1/32 too narrow. Frustrated and not sure I've got the "right stuff" to do this.:confused:
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1/32"??!?? I don't know of any places on the entire airframe that require edge tolerances of 1/32" in order to be functional or safe.

If you can arrange a visit to your shop by an experienced builder or EAA Technical Advisor many of your frustrations and anxieties can be put to rest. Building an airplane is a huge undertaking, but it can be accomplished with the proper outlook and expectations. Don't try to be the Lone Ranger, get some help from locals who have already been down this road. There are scores of experienced RVers in the Dallas area!
 
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Try not to get too down on yourself about this. I remade my HS-908 brackets as did countless others on the forum. It's one of the more difficult steps for those just starting on the tail kit. Press on through and it'll get easier, I promise!

But take this as a good lesson in dealing with frustrations in the shop. You'll definitely have more. Just keep building though - you can do it!
 
Sam Buchanan said:
1/32"??!?? I don't know of any places on the entire airframe that require edge tolerances of 1/32" in order to be functional or safe.
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I agree with Sam. Remember you are building a sheet metal airplane, not a "swiss watch" as Van's likes to say. I personally wouldnt sweat 1/32". If 1/32" was that critical, these things would be falling out of the sky left and right because most of us arent that good. :)

Keep the craftmanship as high as you can throughout the build, but also accept the fact its not going to be 'perfect'. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you will be able to relax a little. Dont feel bad, we've all gone through it, keep at it...it gets better. You will look back at this later and laugh that you were so worried about it.
 
What Sam and others said....

I am building a -6A which uses lots of templates and match drillling most every major part. I am a pilot, not a builder and it scared me that I would not be up to this task. I was wrong. I am up to it, but not without making mistakes and making new parts better than originals. I can only say that after an amount of time, everything just clicks in your brain and you get it. Before that happens you can seem overwhelmed. I can't urge you enough to just put down the tools and go into the house when you aren't feeling that its going well. It gets better. (For me it was a year of studying, reading, questioning, learning to read plans, and most importantly, reading ahead to see where my task is going and how it fits into the next step.) I think I will be flying this time next year..... :) :D
 
Hey, Sam, maybe you should send him a copy of my old "figure-8 hole NTSB report" from a few years back. :D

Don't beat yourself up. Most of us have been there. It's frustrating, granted, but it's also a rite of passage for a lot of us. We NEED to screw up a few pieces-parts to establish our own personal standards of "perfection". Some will only be happy with perfection. The rest of us -- who are building planes to fly not to show -- eventually become satisfied with outcomes that are structurally sound if not esthetically perfect.

I still have a couple of my first HS brackets in my junk box. I look at them everytime I'm using my bandsaw. They make me smile.

Embrace this time of personal discovery and forge on!
 
Though I Was the Only One Who Junked the First Parts

Looks like you have lots of company. As I began prepping the skins, my attention to perfect radii and tolerances lead me to believe the project was going to take at least 20 years. EAA Tech advisor straightened me out ("It's just an airplane"!) and I finished my standard build in about 2000 hours/22 months. Talk to as many other builders as possible and check out their work. That's the real benefit of belonging to EAA. Remember, you're probably flying to Houston, not Mars.
Terry, CFI
RV-9A N323TP
 
Just a few observations. First of all, I really appreciate your honesty and willingness to vent on this forum. Second, I noticed on your bio that you are an architect by trade. That might be part of the problem. Nothing against architects, but your profession requires a degree of accuracy that may not be required, or even possible to attain in building an RV. At least not without frequent frustration. I think the best advise here was to hook up with other Dallas area builders and get a feel for how much precision is reasonable in the construction of a "sheet metal airplane". Thanks again for your honesty. I respect you all the more for it.
 
Most things don't require perfection

"and on of them is still 1/32 too narrow"

I heard hearing Ken Scott once say there is no tolerance so tight that you can't make your layout marks with a regular tipped Sharpie (and you can't mark and cut a line within 1/32" with a fat Sharpie). I am most of the way thru a -9A build. You will learn what is really important and what just needs to be close.

Alan Jackson
Hartselle, AL
 
SportAir Workshop

Martti,

I agree with everyone that as posted. One thing that helped me is going to an EAA SportAir workshop. Attending the Sheet Metal class really gave me the confidence to build. EAA normally has the class in Dallas once a year and I think it is usually in March. They have not posted a Dallas 2011 class on the web site yet but you might keep watching www (dot) sportair (dot) com.

PS Get registered early, some of the classes fill up (ask me how I know)
 
I built those same parts--twice. I now carry the first pair in my kit while I inspect other people's work. I have a similar part (VS mount) from a Piper Tomahawk and show it in comparison and show what Piper WOULD accept, while I scrapped out the others. It is really interesting to see the ragged edges, sloppy holes, and filed-out dings that Piper thought was airworthy (and it was, as this one has 2000 hours on it!) I scrapped mine because the holes weren't exactly perpendicular to the material. I could send you my old ones and they would be fine! Nah, you already have a good set...

Bob Kelly
 
I forgot to mention earlier - I use my scrapped set regularly as check gauges for straightening rib flanges on the rest of the empennage and wings. That extruded angle makes a great 90-degree reference to my work table.
 
I did the same thing. As sort of referred to above about Ken Scott, when I called him about the same problem, he told me to throw out any measuring sticks with those measurements on it! Now I am 90% done and 90% to go, and I still have those old brackets sitting on my shop bench to remind me of how far I have come. And BTW, I could have used those first brackets and they would have been fine. Hang in there, those small parts will start turning into bigger parts soon. Hope this helps, Glenn
 
Yep, I made a second set. You can add 1/4" in the INBD end and when you install the HS on the aft deck of the fuselage you'll see that it wouldn't matter. In fact, you could probably add a 1/2". Better yet, don't make them at all right now and fab them when you go to install the HS. I think Van's should call them HUMBLER brackets. They laid low this proud sheetmetal guy!
 
Don't give up!

In '99 I started on an RV-6 and gave up (since sold the tail kit). Then along came the taildragger version of the RV-9 and I ordered another kit and completed it. Had I stuck with the -6, I would have been flying years earlier.

Like you, I made some mistakes during the build but as someone once said, "It is not the mistake you make but how you correct it that counts."

As for dead parts, here is a picture of some of my damaged, unused parts after I got my -9 flying.

 
I have to share something from longtime RV Builder, Technical Counselor and friend Jack Hakes. I was in the same situation building my RV-6A, making mistakes and having to make things over. Early on he told me, "It's OK, Typical first time builders usually build one and a half planes the first time around :D " Keep poundin' them rivets: It's ALL worth it! Rosie
 
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My Mistakes!

I dimpled a skin from the wrong side.

Bought a new one and wrote on it so I would not forget what was the upside on my dimple table.

Cost + time, it was a slow build belly skin.

We have all done things like this.

It boils down to patience:), which is the opposite of frustration.:confused:

When we are patient with whatever we are doing we will get better results.
We feel better when we get better results.

I have experienced the opposite too many times.

I am going for good results.

Fortunately I know I will finish it and do a nice job.

Now when I will finish that is an open ended story!

Take your time and measure carefully, I had to get new glasses for the close stuff.

Best wishes on your project.:cool:
 
It builds character

Having difficulty is not unusual and part of the process of building is educational. All your trouble means it is a worthwhile undertaking and if you stick with it you will acquire skill that will separate you from the crowd. If you decide to give up on the task you still gain experience and knowledge from the effort. Your eyes have been opened and if you don't think this is for you, it is a good time to bailout. You do not want to press on with the project with the attitude that there is a big question about whether you can do it or not. Personally, I had never done anything like building an airplane before but when I committed to it I went at it with the the attitude that I would do whatever it took to make the best RV-6A airplane I could make. No matter how long it took, or how hard it was, how much money I had to spend - the only things that took priority were family and job. You need to get basic training and many times you will run up against new and different technologies that force you to stop and learn something new. This is totally unlike buying something at a store that requires some assembly. There definitly are downsides to continuing on if you are not sure you want to do it.

Bob Axsom
 
NO WORRIES!

I built those 3 times. By the end of the third time I was so proficient at edge finishing, drilling, deburring that I was ready for the entire project. The horizontal stabilizer is the big learning portion of your kit. It took me 111 hours to finish my horizontal stabilizer because I was learning all the skills I needed to build the plane. I replaced a skin, the angle for the 908's and a couple of nose ribs. The vertical stabilizer took me 24 hours to build. Big difference. The rudder is just about done with 28 hours into it.
DON'T GIVE UP! Things get better and pretty soon you will be ordering a wing kit.
 
I rebuilt mine HS908's. First time, I made them narrower than needed.
Before rebuilding them, I noticed that I could have done them 2/32 larger because they will have a slight clearance on the tail.

And, you can alwas shorten them later.

So, take exact measures with a steel rule. Make an outer new line 2/32'' and cut outside that line. File and deburr. You will have a couple of 1/32 - 2/32'' larger HS908. That's all.

HS908 are the first part you build and, paradoxally, one of the most difficult of the tail, provided that they are the first task. It is a benchmark. Mainly, to prove if you have character.

Go on. Apart from this, 1/32' is not a dangerous part, in my opinion. It will hold your tail (and you will have 4 more contact points to keep it).
 
Hang in there!

I had to make my attach brackets twice also.
I really support the suggestion to cut things like that oversized. After you file and polish it will be the right size. If you cut it to exact dimensions then by the time it's smoothed-up it will be too small.

I started my empennage about a month ago and I can tell you that the learning curve is VERY steep. I'm CONSIDERABLY better now than I was when I started.

Don't give-up,

Tom
 
After Ambassador (Rosie) confessed I feel better now :) I waisted a few things may be more then somebody else. Almost a year I have nothing to screw up I wish I had :D Keep pounding you will smile at your brackets when you get firewall forward...
 
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Mistakes and stuff happen

I can chime in on this, too - just did the first major thing on my -6 - installing lift struts on the canopy. Beautiful job - until I installed the instrument panel and tried to close the canopy. Yup - you guessed it - mounted the struts too far forward and they hit the panel before the canopy closed. #$%@^*&!! As the other posters have said - we're building airplanes, not swiss watches. Decided it made more sense to relieve the instrument panel than drill new holes in the canopy. Now everything works!
 
RE:I fell your pain......

Hi Martti

Great advice given by a bunch of folks that got me through my build.....Ask Ken Scott about the many cals to Van's as I poured out my latest mistake.....During June 2009 as I was doing the final rigging of my flaps I did what I thought was the worst (NOT SO), deal breaker I am out of here (typical of me to blow things out of proportion) mistake.....so what to do. Vansairforce will have the answer.........my search showed that another poor soul made the same mistake but more importantly how to fix.........

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=32524&highlight=flap+bent+wing+skin

So I proceeded to follow his example and now proudly have an aft patch on the trailing edge of my right wing to prove, like others, ...... there is nearly no mistake that can't be fixed. Yea I really wanted a show plane but I think that my plane even with some build scars has the highest reward I can receive.

IT IS DONE ....... FLYING ..... A TON OF FUN ....... and I FINISHED IT :D

Martti as the others have said ...... put my way .... an RV build is a series of problems that successful builders solve successfully.

Frank @ 1L8 ... RV7A ... Flying and Tracken MT-RTG
 
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It's all relative - go look at a Cessna or Piper

I built the entire HS twice. Now I have a good spare! But my riviting on the second try was MUCH better.

If you want to put your worksmanship into perspective just get a good look inside the wing or aft fuselage of any Piper or Cessna. I looked at my Dad's 182 and was shocked! Wow, looks like it was assembled by monkeys. Sloppy monkeys at that! And Cessna's are still flying around just fine.

Al Thomas
N880AT RV-8A
200 Hours to go - or so I hope!
 
Av8torTom said:
I really support the suggestion to cut things like that oversized. After you file and polish it will be the right size. If you cut it to exact dimensions then by the time it's smoothed-up it will be too small.
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The best advice coming from someone who just started building!

One further piece of advice anytime you need to fabricate parts: whenever possible, drill all of the holes first and only then cut the part down to the dimensions called for by Van's. That will guarantee you the chance for maintaining proper edge distance.

Hang in there.
 
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I built those attach brackets 3 times. Twice during the empennage phase, then worked through the wings and into the fuse, and then while attaching the tail to the fuse I decided I didn't like the edge clearance on a couple of the holes so I made a third set. If you look forward (or have the fuse plans available) you'll see that a spacer plate is used UNDER those attach brackets when fitting the tail to the fuse and you can actually make them taller than the plans call for (by the thickness of that spacer) without any particular issue. When I remade mine for better edge distance I did exactly that, I eliminated the spacer plate and made them a bit taller, drilling them to fit.

The Van's lineage progresses from one design to the other with each "new" design incorporating slight changes in the instructions from the previous one, using as many previously designed parts as possible with as few manufacturing changes as possible. In some cases it would be better to start from scratch, but they simply don't have the manpower or time to analyze all the instructions for all the models to find those points. This is one of them, where they modified an existing design for a different airplane, requiring the spacer plate. I'm certainly not disrespecting Vans or their employees here, simply calling it what it is. They are a victim of their own success. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.
 
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Greg, if you had to slightly change the HS pitch and need to lower it at the front, you will need to rebuild those angulars. A spacer is lot simpler in such case: just use a thinner spacer. That's why Van's may have not simply underlooked at this portion of plans.

IMHO
 
Keep building

On September 22, 1997 I drilled the first hole in my HS. I looked for anything else I could do before drilling that hole. I knew that as soon as I picked up the drill, I could make my first mistake. I took a deep breath, and started my slow build RV-8. I was so proud of the finished HS, until I built the VS. It was then I realized that the VS was built so much better than the HS. To this day I look at the HS and wish I could do it over again. It's not that it was poorly built, or un-airworthy, it's just that I learned so much building the HS that the VS looked perfect in comparison.

As I continued the project I got better and better. By the time I finished, I was very proud of my work. I started out afraid to drill the first hole, and I ended up looking at my finished RV-8, and I couldn't believe I had built such a beautiful airplane! That was ten plus years, and 1200 RV grining hours ago!

Remember: You are not building a watch. You are only building an airplane. It doesn't have to be able to keep time. It only has to fly. Have fun!
 
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You are in good company. Alot of us made those parts a second and third time. Thats why Van's has you building the empennage first on the kit because the parts are less expensive to replace. When I was countersinking the HS906 I did the wrong side and trashed that. I ended up replacing one rudder skin because I goofed on backriveting the stiffners on. Sure its frustrating but there is a learning curve. Follow through on getting a local builder/flyer/tech consultant to spend some time with you. When I started I had a mentor to get me going. If you don't screw up a few parts what are you going to be able to talk about with the rest of us at places like OSH :rolleyes:

As I get reminded from time to time - strive for perfection but realize that you will never achieve it.

Now get back to the shop and put some parts together :D.
 
GAHco said:
I dimpled a skin from the wrong side.

Bought a new one and wrote on it so I would not forget what was the upside on my dimple table.
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What's wrong with this picture?!?! Yup, that's right...I dimpled the hole with the big "DO NOT DIMPLE" note and arrow pointing to it. Argghhhh! ***bangs head on workbench***
20071108-01-tn.jpg


I, along with many, share in your frustration. You'll be fine...and you'll have a great airplane when you're done. :)
 
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