[vindino]

I am shortly going to start building an RV 10 and am wondering what the advantages of buying a new engine vs a factory zeroed one. does anyone have the gouge on this?

 

[JonJay]

Call Aerosport

Call Bart at Aerosport Power. He will give you sound advise and guide you to a good decision. He can also supply the engine when you are ready.

 

[rgbewley]

New vs. Rebuilt

Rebuilt. Absolutely nothing wrong with a rebuilt engine. Before the experimental kits became available and the factories started selling new engines to kit manufacturers, this is how virtually all experimental homebuilts and even high performance aerobatic airplanes were equipped. Things to consider. The availability and quality of core engines. The last several years have shown that the availibility of quality cores is diminishing and the price is going up. Consider yourself lucky if you can find a good core for $8,000-$10,000. Many cores available through places like ebay or salvage dealers have an unknown history and probably damage. You also have to make sure you get the whole core, or you'll end up spending more to get it equipped.

A rebuilt engine will be flat tappet/cam, which can become an issue if you don't fly a lot (say less than 100 hours/year.) This is one of the most common points of premature repair/overhaul on these engines, due to corrosion. This topic has been discussed at length in the past.

The only other issue I see with a rebuilt 540 is that you want to make sure that you get a crankshaft that does not measure .010/.010 after regrinding. If you find yourself in this situation and have a propstrike, you could be faced with replacing the crankshaft. ($14,000 for new, $7000 for a decent overhauled, solid flange crank) and you will certainly have to replace it at the next overhaul of the engine. If you go with an o'h engine, make sure you're dealing with a reputable shop. Make sure that the engine is built to Factory New Limits using applicable o'h data and is in compliance with all SB/ADs. Make sure that the engine builder does not use air boat (i.e. unairworthy) parts in their o'h.

New - Benefits: wide deck, roller tappet, all new components, no damage history. Downside: a few thousand dollars more than an overhauled engine from a quality shop. If you decide to go new, you'll have to decide whether to buy from a specialty shop like us, Aerosport or Mattituck or the factory. (That's a whole other post.) Most of my customers have found that the difference between the o'h engine and new is small enough to justify going with new, but we do still build o'h condition engines for RVs on a regular basis.

Hope this information is helpful.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Moving target

I am shortly going to start building an RV 10 and am wondering what the advantages of buying a new engine vs a factory zeroed one. does anyone have the gouge on this?

First you are far away from buying an engine. The best thing you can do is make and save money. #2 don't buy your engine before you need it. You should be working on your finishing kit before ordering an engine. No need to have an expensive engine sitting around gathering rust. If you are going used, it does not hurt to start looking for a good core. The question is all about money. If money is not the issue than buy new for sure. Even if money is the issue, new can still be a better value. I'll explain below. Just for a bench mark a brand new IO-540 Lyc is about $39,000.00. A new 4 banger is only about $20k. (Heck buy two 4-bangers and put them on each wing; make a twin! )

Back in the day when used engines where more plentiful and Eci and Superior did not have their clones, used was the best way, almost the only way. Now we have new engines from three sources (Lyc, Eci, Sup) for not a lot more than buying a core and rebuilding it. So if I was buying an engine today I would go new, probably through Mattituck, or the ECI engine build-it-yourself engine kit, from new parts. The latter will save a few grand if you assemble the engine and really is not much more than buying a used engine and doing a compete overhaul with an all new top end.

If you ever have rebuilt an engine, there can be some come to reality moments, like getting word your crank is bad, for example. If you had been flying the engine and know its history, usually this does not happen, but a used core sitting on tire in the corner of a hanger, is more risky. Off the top of my head, a new 4 banger crank starts at about $4,500(?). A 540 crank is going to be way more. You can look it up. My point, if you buy a core and a major part is bad (case, cam, crank), it will ruin the savings you where hoping for by going used. Also if you don't do some of the work your self, just farm it all out, the savings over new is going to be almost a wash. However a used engine with a quality rebuild and all new top end is a good engine. As good as new? Well lets say equivalent. Parts do wear out, but chance is you will not out live the part wear.

Going new or having it rebuilt by a pro has the advantage of warranty and sometimes initial break-in and checks on an engine stand.

Warning, if you pay too much for a core or get a bad one, it can ruin the economy. People want certified parts money for their engine. Fair enough, but as experimental guys, we can buy a "clone engine" for significantly less than certified engines. You don't need certified engine pedigree for a home-built. It servers no purpose unless you plan on putting that engine in a certified plane later, which I think is unlikely. A Clone engine is really made of all certified parts.

A new clone engine in your airplane will be a plus for resale. Let's say you where looking to buy a flying RV, and it was down to two with the same hours on airframe and engine: One RV had a Mattituck installed new and the other had an engine installed after OH with a story (out of a XYZ plane, rebuilt by Joe). I'd prefer the Mattituck.

You have to look at your pocket book. Start looking for a good used engine and hope you get lucky. Other wise work lots of over time, save your money and when you're ready for your engine, no sooner, order it.

There is sweat equity and taking risk on buying used engines. The (max) reward or savings, used v new, is 5 to 7 grand on a 4-banger, if all goes your way. A 540 might have a greater savings(?). The new engine is a no brain'er, low risk and no sweat equity (besides working to make the money to buy it).

George

PS: I should mention what I think the best deal is, a builders dream, is a USED engine FWF out of a RV, that has good time left, flying and in good condition. That is the money saver. You'll have to rebuild it sooner, but you get into the air with less cash. How do you get those? LOOK for it. Some times planes go to insurance auction damaged with good engines. People buy whole planes (damaged) just for the engine / prop, parting out the rest. A O-540 or IO-540 would be in a Piper Cherokee 6, C-182RG or a twin, like an Aztec (two engines, sell one, keep one). You're bidding against Pros that know a good deal, so don't plan on getting it for free. There's still (financial) risk buying damaged planes. With a new engine, call, write a big check and wait for the truck company to knock on the door.

 

[rgbewley]

Back in the day when used engines where more plentiful and Eci and Superior did not have their clones, used was the best way. Now we have new engines from three sources (Lyc, Eci, Sup) for not a lot more than buying a core and rebuilding it. So if I was buying today I would go new, probably through Mattituck, or the ECI engine build it yourself engine kit from new parts (save a few grand).

At this time, ECI nor Superior has a 540 engine available in kit format or from their factory. They do have PMA parts that can be used on an overhauled engine, but not new. Cases and cranks being the biggest missing components. A few years ago, some thought that ECI would have a 540 out on the market by now, but it hasn't made its way to market. So, unless you plan on putting a 180 hp 360 in your -10, Lycoming (overhauled from an engine shop, new experimental kit from one of 6 field shops, factory certified new or factory experimental new) is the option you'll have to consider.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Good to know, what about Lyc parts

At this time, ECI nor Superior has a 540 engine available in kit format or from their factory. They do have PMA parts that can be used on an overhauled engine, but not new. Cases and cranks being the biggest missing components. A few years ago, some thought that ECI would have a 540 out on the market by now, but it hasn't made its way to market. So, unless you plan on putting a 180 hp 360 in your -10, Lycoming (overhauled from an engine shop, new experimental kit from one of 6 field shops, factory certified new or factory experimental new) is the option you'll have to consider.

Thanks for the info. I was thinking 4-banger for sure. Sorry to ask about competition, but do you know what Aero Sport, up in Canada does. They sell the O-540 or IO-540 and call them new. I don't know what parts they use (Lyc, Eci, Sup). I assumed the crank and case are new. Must be all Lyc parts. Is that what you refer to as "new experimental kit from one of 6 field shops"?

 

[rgbewley]

I am gussing buying a new case and cranks from Lyc would be cost prohibitive?

Happy to answer your questions, if all you want to buy is new cases and crankshaft from Lycoming to build an o'h engine, you'd be forced to pay aftermarket prices, which would definitely be cost prohibitive. In addition, you can't get new cases from Lycoming machined for flat tappet engines any longer. This may be part of the reason that good engine cores are becoming more difficult to find and more expensive. When Lycoming gets an engine off a certified plane in the door, they automatically upgrade it to roller-tappet and "dispose" of the flat tappet components. Even if you could get the roller tappet cases, you won't be able to get a roller cam/tappets to assemble the engine. You have to have an engine serial number and turn in the old roller tappets to buy new.

Sorry to ask about competition, but do you know what Aero Sport, up in Canada does. They sell the O-540 or IO-540 and call them new. I don't know what parts they use (Lyc, Eci, Sup). I assumed they have new cranks and cases. I could be wrong.
We are one of the six engine shops approved to sell Lycoming experimental kit engine shops, as is Aerosport.

I wounder what a 540 would cost (parts only) buying all Eci and supplementing it with new Lyc parts? Do you have a guess, assembly labor not included. Than if handed a bunch of new or yellow tagged parts, what would you charge to put it together?
As far as sending in yellow-tagged components for us to assembly, my first comment is that the yellow tag is only worth the signature of the person who signed off on it. Yellow tagged parts procured from outside sources undergo the same inspection procedures as those from our preferred vendors (i.e., the ones we know the quality of their work.) There are some shops we won't use yellow tagged parts from, and some parts that we prefer to use OEM versus PMA. Past experiences with customers purchasing their own parts and sending them in for assembly has put us in a position to generally pass on doing this type of work.

Hope this is helpful to you.