StickandRudder

StickandRudder

Member
Hey VAF...I'm new here. Had some questions and thought this would be a good place to ask. Sorry if this is the wrong section of the forum, but I wasn't sure where to put this.

So, I'm a pretty young guy, newer pilot. Just over 100 hours. I'm a senior at the Air Force Academy and heading to pilot training when I graduate. Thinking I might like to get an airplane after UPT. I love flying, started working on my PPL during my sophomore year and have been hooked ever since. I've wanted to own an airplane for a while now. There for a bit I wanted a Mooney. Then I wanted a Super Viking...But then I started taking aerobatics and LOVED IT. :D Mentioned to my instructor one day that I kinda wanted to own a plane, and told him I had been looking at Moonies and Vikings since they were fast and had ok fuel burn. Figured they'd make decent XC planes. He turned to me and said "Let me show you something." He calls up his buddy to see if he's around, and he is, so we walk into his hangar.

It was then that I saw the most beautiful airplane I've ever seen. It nearly brought tears to my eyes. It was an RV-3. A nice one too. Immaculate paint, glass cockpit...Everything. My instructor and his buddy then go on to tell me how RVs are fast, have low fuel burn, and are aerobatic capable. As soon as I got back to my dorm room I pulled up barnstormers and started shopping. I found several other planes I might like too. All experimentals.

So the conclusion I've arrived at is I want an experimental of some flavor. But I want to know, what all is involved with owning an experimental vs a factory certified?

So after researching extensively, I have come up with some criteria for what plane I want and found a few potential options. Basically I want something that is:
-Two place
-Capable of doing some aerobatics
-Has a good fuel burn and decent range for XC
-Enough useful load for me and a passenger and a little bit of luggage
-Has some good speed :D

So based on those criteria, I've found a few possibilities. My price range would probably be up to 35K. USAFA gives us all a 35K loan at 0.5% interest, so I could use that, and as an unmarried 2nd Lt I should have no trouble paying it off. I won't have the time to build myself, so I will probably buy one already built and have it inspected. So here's my options so far:


RV-4
Pros:
-Fast
-Aerobatic
-Decent fuel burn, ok range
Cons:
-Although I've seen a few in my price range, they can be a bit expensive (for me)

Thorp T-18
Pros:
-Fast
-Aerobatic
-Good fuel burn and range
-Slightly more affordable
Cons:
-I've heard they are hard to handle on the ground and I have limited tailwheel time...but that can be fixed with some more training. :rolleyes:


Sonerai II
Pros:
-Great fuel burn
-CHEAP
-2 place
-I could use it in Formula V racing...someday...maybe...
-Aerobatic
Cons:
-Small (I'm 6'5")
-Not as fast
-Range ain't as great


VariEze
Pros:
-FAST
-Outstanding fuel burn
-Pretty affordable
-Great range
-Looks neat
-Made by Rutan
Cons:
-Limited on aerobatics (as is my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong)


Mustang II
Pros:
-FAST
-Aerobatic
Cons:
-Might be a bit outta my price range, unless I get lucky and find a steal
-Not as fuel efficient as my other choices

SO. With all that, the main things I'm wanting to know from all you guys since you know way more about experimentals than me are:
-What all is involved with owning an experimental vs a factory certified aircraft?
-Of the choices I listed, what do you think of each? Anything I should know about them?
-Any of them too small for a 6'5" guy?
-Any other aircraft I should look at that would meet my desires?
-Since I'd be buying an already assembled aircraft, not building, I'd want to get it inspected. Do any A&Ps do pre-buys on EABs? How do I know I'm getting a good plane.

Hope ya'll don't mind helping out a total newbie. I'm really curious about experimentals and hope I can own one some day! Thanks, and God bless!
 
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Welcome to VAF!!!!

StickandRudder said:
Hey VAF...I'm new here.
Hope ya'll don't mind helping out a total newbie. I'm really curious about experimentals and hope I can own one some day! Thanks, and God bless!
Click to expand...

Harry, welcome aboard VAF:D

Good to have you here.
 
The Sonarai and the VariEze are very different aircraft than the others.

Many (most? all?) Sonerai have VW based engines. That means a small airframe and poor climb performance relative to the MII, T18 and RV. I know several people with VW powered airplanes. They all talk highly of the engines, but honestly, don't fly much because they are always working on 'em. I don't believe they are a good choice for aircraft engines because they turn at high rpm to produce power, which compromises propeller performance, and are marginal from a thermal standpoint - they tend to run hot and suffer valve and cylinder issues because of the heat.

The Varieze is pretty cramped for two poeple and uses a lot of runway. A Long EZ is a bigger, better flying development of the canard planform. It uses a lot of runway too, but not as much as the Varieze.

I think the differences between the other three would come down to comparing individual examples for plans conformity and how well they were built. The RV will have better low speed handling than the others, the MII may have the highest stall (and top) speed for a given engine.

Good luck with whatever you choose.
 
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Believe it or not......

Many of us here on the forum have experience in many of these aircraft. That's why we now fly RVs.
I agree with a lot of your research. But I'm afraid that you will not likely find a decent 2-seat RV in your price range.
One advantage to owning an experimental as opposed to a certified aircraft is that you can do as much maintenance and/or modifications that you feel confident doing. Experienced supervision is STRONGLY recommended.
Any A&P can perform the annual condition inspection. IA is not required. Negative side is a few A&Ps won't work on experimentals. But that's not a big problem.

Since 1967, I have owned quite a few airplanes ranging from a '41 T-Craft to a '68 Mooney and including a '46 Globe Swift. I owned each of these aircraft an average of 2-4 years each. I've now been flying my RV-6 since May of 1993. Does that tell you something?
 
Your height

A guy your height will definitely want to sit in all of these different planes before you take the finanical plunge to buy one. I am 6'4" and a RV-4 is a little tight for my liking. I am going to Build and RV-8 because they were designed with taller people in mind.

Here is what I would do if I were in your shoes. I would buy the kit of my choice and start to work on it. With the other portion of your loan, I would buy my way into a flying club, and that way you could still fly while building. It will take longer for you to own your own airplane, but when you are done, you will have the one that meets all of your mission specifics, and you wouldn't have to compromise because of price.

That is my 2 cents - spend it as you like.
 
Next

Hi Harry,

Welcome to VAF. First thing you should do after UPT is find an ANG Base! Then, find your airplane.

I spent a looooong time building a VariEze and absolutely loved it. It is a great poor-mans airplane. Goes fast, goes a long ways, doesn't go through fuel. Great x/c plane - Oshkosh twice, Lexington, Montgomery, Al, Los Angeles, San Antonio - great! After about five years of flying it a friend (ANG pilot - hint hint) gave me a ride in an RV-8. Ordered the RV-7 empennage kit three months later. After I flew off the forty hours, I hopped in the Eze for a quick buz. It rolled and rolled and rolled before the mains finally unstuck. I honestly didn't think I was developing full power, but the tach told me otherwise. Next, I went to make my first turn and I thought my controls were stuck. But, it finally came around. I was just too used to the lightness and harmony of the RV. Didn't ever think my Vari was that heavy on the controls. That was the last flight I made in my VariEze. Took out the avionics, sold the engine, parked the airframe in a museum and never looked back.

I believe the RV is in a different league. It's fast, comfy, and aerobatic. Sure, it burns a bit more gas, but really, you just can't put a price on your recreation.
 
You'll be able to save up a lot of money during pilot training, just get a roommate. There isn't much to spend money on in the towns around the UPT bases and there really isn't much time to go on vacations and spend money so it'll stack up quick.

Depending on how long you're on casual and how frugal you are, it would be pretty easy to have 10-25k stashed away to use with the loan which opens up the possibilities even more.

If you want my opinion, save up until you finish UPT and then buy an RV kit. Building is way more fun than I thought it would be and I have been looking forward to building since I was in high school. Plus you get to make it exactly how you want it. To keep in the air/keep your skills up just go to the Aero Club down at the airfield or at your base after you graduate and fly those planes. During and after UPT I think you be in the air and keeping your skills sharp plenty.

I'm using my loan to pay for my kit but so far I haven't had to dip into it. I've saved up the money and paid cash for the tool kit, the empennage and the wings just since after 60 days. Engine and avionics I feel will be the real wallet killer...
 
You can do it

I would suggest you save around $1200/month. This will let you know if you can afford to fly the plane and pay for the loan at the same time. While you are doing this, look for either a RV-6 or a RV-4. Although rare, I have seen them under $40k. Look for a good airframe and engine. The panel, paint and other items can be changed later.

It took a year to find the one I bought, so you can save around $14k in that time.

My 2-cents. :)
 
Ditto everything above

First thing is to go get a ride in a RV! This will help you make up your mind real quick :D

Seriously, you are going to be pretty busy the rest of this year and in UPT, giving you plenty of time to continue your research. When all is settled down and you get to your next assignment, see if there is a local EAA chapter close by and join. If they are like our chapter, you will have no trouble getting rides in some of the models you listed and some you don't even know about yet. Save your money and wait until you can get what you want.

Finally, the folks hanging around this site are somewhat prejudiced, but you will be too after you get your RV ride.

Congrats and keep up the good work.
 
Mike S said:
Harry, welcome aboard VAF:D

Good to have you here.
Click to expand...

Thanks mate!
Many (most? all?) Sonerai have VW based engines. That means a small airframe and poor climb performance relative to the MII, T18 and RV. I know several people with VW powered airplanes. They all talk highly of the engines, but honestly, don't fly much because they are always working on 'em. I don't believe they are a good choice for aircraft engines because they turn at high rpm to produce power, which compromises propeller performance, and are marginal from a thermal standpoint - they tend to run hot and suffer valve and cylinder issues because of the heat.

The Varieze is pretty cramped for two poeple and uses a lot of runway. A Long EZ is a bigger, better flying development of the canard planform. It uses a lot of runway too, but not as much as the Varieze.

I think the differences between the other three would come down to comparing individual examples for plans conformity and how well they were built. The RV will have better low speed handling than the others, the MII may have the highest stall (and top) speed for a given engine.
Click to expand...

Hey thanks. This is exactly the type of advice I was hoping for. I will make certain to avoid VW engines. I have seen some Sonerais with Continentals. What do you think about that?

I've heard about the long rolls, that's not necessarily a deal breaker for me, but the lack of performance might be. If I can get it, I want a plane that can do well XC as well as aerobatics.

Many of us here on the forum have experience in many of these aircraft. That's why we now fly RVs.
I agree with a lot of your research. But I'm afraid that you will not likely find a decent 2-seat RV in your price range.
One advantage to owning an experimental as opposed to a certified aircraft is that you can do as much maintenance and/or modifications that you feel confident doing. Experienced supervision is STRONGLY recommended.
Any A&P can perform the annual condition inspection. IA is not required. Negative side is a few A&Ps won't work on experimentals. But that's not a big problem.

Since 1967, I have owned quite a few airplanes ranging from a '41 T-Craft to a '68 Mooney and including a '46 Globe Swift. I owned each of these aircraft an average of 2-4 years each. I've now been flying my RV-6 since May of 1993. Does that tell you something?
Click to expand...

Good advice Mel, and yes it does say something. There's a good reason RVs are so popular, I'm sure. BUT, I just want to know what all my options are.

Hi Harry,

Welcome to VAF. First thing you should do after UPT is find an ANG Base! Then, find your airplane.

I spent a looooong time building a VariEze and absolutely loved it. It is a great poor-mans airplane. Goes fast, goes a long ways, doesn't go through fuel. Great x/c plane - Oshkosh twice, Lexington, Montgomery, Al, Los Angeles, San Antonio - great! After about five years of flying it a friend (ANG pilot - hint hint) gave me a ride in an RV-8. Ordered the RV-7 empennage kit three months later. After I flew off the forty hours, I hopped in the Eze for a quick buz. It rolled and rolled and rolled before the mains finally unstuck. I honestly didn't think I was developing full power, but the tach told me otherwise. Next, I went to make my first turn and I thought my controls were stuck. But, it finally came around. I was just too used to the lightness and harmony of the RV. Didn't ever think my Vari was that heavy on the controls. That was the last flight I made in my VariEze. Took out the avionics, sold the engine, parked the airframe in a museum and never looked back.

I believe the RV is in a different league. It's fast, comfy, and aerobatic. Sure, it burns a bit more gas, but really, you just can't put a price on your recreation.
Click to expand...

Heh, I gotta do my time in the active before I can go guard, and I'm thinking I may stay in for the haul if I can, but thanks for the advice. I think I need to try and bum rides in these planes before I make my decision.

A guy your height will definitely want to sit in all of these different planes before you take the finanical plunge to buy one. I am 6'4" and a RV-4 is a little tight for my liking. I am going to Build and RV-8 because they were designed with taller people in mind.

Here is what I would do if I were in your shoes. I would buy the kit of my choice and start to work on it. With the other portion of your loan, I would buy my way into a flying club, and that way you could still fly while building. It will take longer for you to own your own airplane, but when you are done, you will have the one that meets all of your mission specifics, and you wouldn't have to compromise because of price.

That is my 2 cents - spend it as you like.
Click to expand...

I've managed to fit in some small stuff, but I will absolutely want to do that. There's a quite a few experimentals at an airport not far from here.

I doubt I'll have time to fly professionally, recreationally, AND build a plane all at the same time. I have a lot of other hobbies too, and I'm not willing to give them up completely to build a plane. I don't really have enough confidence in my own abilities to build one anyhow.

You'll be able to save up a lot of money during pilot training, just get a roommate. There isn't much to spend money on in the towns around the UPT bases and there really isn't much time to go on vacations and spend money so it'll stack up quick.

Depending on how long you're on casual and how frugal you are, it would be pretty easy to have 10-25k stashed away to use with the loan which opens up the possibilities even more.

If you want my opinion, save up until you finish UPT and then buy an RV kit. Building is way more fun than I thought it would be and I have been looking forward to building since I was in high school. Plus you get to make it exactly how you want it. To keep in the air/keep your skills up just go to the Aero Club down at the airfield or at your base after you graduate and fly those planes. During and after UPT I think you be in the air and keeping your skills sharp plenty.

I'm using my loan to pay for my kit but so far I haven't had to dip into it. I've saved up the money and paid cash for the tool kit, the empennage and the wings just since after 60 days. Engine and avionics I feel will be the real wallet killer...
Click to expand...

I was planning on saving during casual and UPT, getting a roommate or three...We'll see what kind of financial shape I'm in when all is said and done, but I am not too keen on the idea of building. Satisfying? I'm sure. But it is time consuming, and I don't have the technical skills I think I'd need to build one. Might be cheaper in the long run to just buy.

BUT, while we're on the subject, what's your advice on where to go for casual? I'd like to stay in Colorado if I could, but I'm open to other things.
 
I've owned a T-18 (1st homebuilt, right after the Luscombe that taught me to fly) & an assortment of other types, & I've flown others, including several Mustang II's. I currently fly a purchased -4 & I'm building a -7. As you might expect, I prefer the RV's over other types.

Having said that, you should know that a well built T-18 or Mustang II can come pretty close to RV performance/quality for a lot less money; likely less than it will cost to build an RV. Both have pretty good support networks, but obviously neither will be as extensive as the RV community, due to simple numbers. If purchasing a flying plane, I'd advise spending a lot of time learning what potential flaws to look for (that applies to any type, including RV's).

In my experience, neither of the cons you list for the T-18 & M-II are legitimate criticisms. The T-18 tends to have a higher sink rate on final, & therefore people tend to land them a bit faster than an RV, but that is not a handling issue. A properly built M-II (not every example is) can be *more* efficient than an RV, but stall speeds can vary by as much as 15 mph from plane to plane, due to construction issues specific to the M-II's wing leading edge (see below).

The biggest issue with either is that most flying examples were plans-built with nowhere near as many pre-fabbed parts as an RV, so build quality can vary a lot from plane to plane.

Bottom line; don't limit your options, especially if finances are an issue. I'd personally take a well built paid-for T-18 or M-II over a bank note on an RV, any day of the week. :)

If you want some more specific info, feel free to send me a PM & we can talk.

Charlie
 
What resources can I consult that will have info on what flaws to look for? This is the aspect of experimentals I'm most apprehensive about. If I can find a good one though, I'm certain it'll be worth the hassle. I haven't seen any factory certified planes that can do everything an RV does for anywhere near the price range.
 
StickandRudder said:
...
Thorp T-18
Pros:
-Fast
-Aerobatic
-Good fuel burn and range
-Slightly more affordable
Cons:
-I've heard they are hard to handle on the ground and I have limited tailwheel time...but that can be fixed with some more training. :rolleyes:
...

Mustang II
Pros:
-FAST
-Aerobatic
Cons:
-Might be a bit outta my price range, unless I get lucky and find a steal
-Not as fuel efficient as my other choices
Click to expand...

First off, don't worry about the tailwheel thing. 10 hours of dual and you will be more than good to go.

Both the T18 and the Mustang II are small when compared to an RV and both have very limited baggage space.

The cruise speeds are about the same as an RV with the same engine.

The difference is in landing speeds (the Mustang II has a much higher approach speed) and control harmoney. Simply nothing flies like an RV, that's why over 7,000 of them have been completed and flown.

Also the support in terms of parts, insurance, forums are much better with the RV's.
 
I would do as some have suggested and start saving for the right aircraft at the right time. You have a very difficult and intense time coming up. You have UPT then training in a aircraft type and then even more training in your first squadron. You are going to be moving multiple times and may face a very difficult deployment schedule once you are done with training. I think your really at least 5 or 6 years from being in a position to own a aircraft. I would save money and put your effort into the flying with the airforce. Once your career is established and things have settled out look at a purchase.

George
 
The other point to consider is resale. My guess is that a decent RV will sell easier than any of the others that you are likely to consider comparable.

Since in the RV arena, the RV-6(A) is likely to be the cheapest, plan on at a minimum: 180 HP engine (Lycoming).
 
S&R:

Posts like these are always fun to find on a forum, as much to enjoy reading the many different views as it is to see what useful advice one might add to the fold. I'm not sure any of the following is add'l info, but I'll put them all in because sometimes repetition makes a point.

-- You are too new to flying to know what you want 3-5 years from now, which is when you are likely to be able to enjoy your own a/c
-- Absent previous a/c ownership, it's difficult for you to ID the likely expenses that can come with ownership. You'll need to research that, for a given a/c, as much as the a/c itself to insure you can afford it plus your other hobbies and your lifestyle
-- Your instincts to buy vs. build are IMO sound, not because you lack the ability (many of us do before starting) but rather because a build is a 3-5+ year project and you will be living a transient lifestyle. Yes, you can move the project (and the tools) and yes, you can find a new home for them each time...but does that make sense?
-- When buying, think resale...'cause eventually, that day will come. RV's do very well in this regard (as I keep finding out myself while I shop...)
-- Regardless whether certified or experimental, you will want to develop a cluster of friends and associates (virtual and otherwise) that can coach you on upgrade issues, repairs, and such. This forum is quite unique in that regard and the depth of its knowledge base comes with any/every RV
-- If you must buy, consider going for twice (or more) a/c than you otherwise can afford and form a partnership. Almost every a/c on every field is underutilized. When deployed, wouldn't it be great to know your a/c is cared for properly? AOPA (aopa.org) offers an entire kit on how to do this and many of us have had a great experience in doing so...but again, if you'll have a transient lifestyle, finding the right partner might prove difficult

Keep flying (for Uncle Sam, and also for you when that makes sense). Definitely try on as many a/c as you can, including begging rides here and via your local EAA chapter. Build your skills and your own opinions about the a/c you fly...but keep first things first, which means doing well enough getting those wings that you have some influence over what you will be flying professionally, once the bulk of the training is passed. And good luck to you!

Jack
 
You forgot to mention one big factor when looking into different airplanes..... Its sex appeal, and by golly the RV's are one sexy airplane!

How could you go wrong with any RV? They are all around package airplane, have the biggest support community, and look cool!

just my opinion.
 
Brett: We'll talk. I'm trying to work out my casual with one of my profs ATM.

-- You are too new to flying to know what you want 3-5 years from now, which is when you are likely to be able to enjoy your own a/c
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It'll be AT LEAST 3 years before I'm actually in the market. I accept that...As much as I'd love to own a plane for my 3-6 months of casual duty before UPT, I know I'd regret it the moment I started pilot training. And that's a fair point that I'm new. My desired aircraft has changed three-ish times this year alone, but that is mainly because I didn't know what all was out there (especially in the EAB world). I have a much better idea of what is out there and what I want now that I've researched a bit more. Mainly I want to own something versatile. The RV can do aerobatics, go on cross country, it's fast, with the right model I can take up a passenger (read: girls) and luggage. I may be new but I know enough about what direction I want to take my rec flying, and the RV is one of the only planes that fits the bill. But then again you could be right. Who knows what I'll want 3 years from now? I still think it is useful for me to do research now though so when the time comes, I will know what my options are and have time to bum rides, do research, meet owners, and get more experience.

-- Absent previous a/c ownership, it's difficult for you to ID the likely expenses that can come with ownership. You'll need to research that, for a given a/c, as much as the a/c itself to insure you can afford it plus your other hobbies and your lifestyle
Click to expand...
Assuming I don't do something stupid like get married, and I'm fiscally responsible, I should be able to afford the plane I want. But I have time to confirm that. And that's a comforting thought.

-- Your instincts to buy vs. build are IMO sound, not because you lack the ability (many of us do before starting) but rather because a build is a 3-5+ year project and you will be living a transient lifestyle. Yes, you can move the project (and the tools) and yes, you can find a new home for them each time...but does that make sense?
Click to expand...
That's how I'm looking at it. Makes more sense for me. If I had the skills and another lifestyle, I'd love to build. But I don't.

-- When buying, think resale...'cause eventually, that day will come. RV's do very well in this regard (as I keep finding out myself while I shop...)
-- Regardless whether certified or experimental, you will want to develop a cluster of friends and associates (virtual and otherwise) that can coach you on upgrade issues, repairs, and such. This forum is quite unique in that regard and the depth of its knowledge base comes with any/every RV
-- If you must buy, consider going for twice (or more) a/c than you otherwise can afford and form a partnership. Almost every a/c on every field is underutilized. When deployed, wouldn't it be great to know your a/c is cared for properly? AOPA (aopa.org) offers an entire kit on how to do this and many of us have had a great experience in doing so...but again, if you'll have a transient lifestyle, finding the right partner might prove difficult

Keep flying (for Uncle Sam, and also for you when that makes sense). Definitely try on as many a/c as you can, including begging rides here and via your local EAA chapter. Build your skills and your own opinions about the a/c you fly...but keep first things first, which means doing well enough getting those wings that you have some influence over what you will be flying professionally, once the bulk of the training is passed. And good luck to you!
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Good advice...Partnership sounds like a decent idea for caring for the plane while I'm gone. I'll look into that. Glad I found this forum too...The massive support for RVs makes them that much more attractive to me.

As for focusing so I can get the plane I want, I'm right there with you. I'm trying to get every advantage I can prior to UPT, and I want a fighter so I plan on making UPT my life entirely while I'm in it.

You need to go hang out at Meadow Lake airport. There are a lot of RV's there!
You shouldn't have any problem getting a ride in a RV there. I didn't!
You can read about my visit here:
http://home.newwavecomm.net/bobbyhes...gDecFlying.htm

Meadow Lake Airport website:
http://www.2mla.com/
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I fly aerobatics out of meadowlake! Love that place. Do you know Gar Frith? I've seen the RVs there...Hoping I can bum a ride in one. Know anyone I could talk to? I think I'm primarily interested in a 4 or an 8.

You forgot to mention one big factor when looking into different airplanes..... Its sex appeal, and by golly the RV's are one sexy airplane!

How could you go wrong with any RV? They are all around package airplane, have the biggest support community, and look cool!

just my opinion.
Click to expand...

That's why I'm drawn to them. They have it all. And on the sex appeal, as I said I want a two place so I can take the ladies up.

Thanks for the help guys. I'll be hanging around this forum a lot I think.
 
S&R,
Alright dude, no one else has said it... so I will. Standby for some motherhood.

Your head is in totally the wrong place right now if you're thinking about how you're going to spend your free time, you're not going to have any. As a senior, your one goal right now should be finishing strong and graduating in the top of your class, preparing for the torrent of uncertainty that's ahead.

Once you graduate, if you find yourself on casual at an active duty unit, your ONLY job is to be there every day. Ears open, mouth shut, and be the new guy. Learn how to fold into a ready room. Make coffee, sit in on briefs, keep the ready room clean and the crapper full of new and current magazines. Whore yourself out for rides, and cling to the guys fresh out of UPT and learn everything they have to offer. Your reputation starts now. If you're too busy hording your free time and finding other things to do you're going to make a bad name for yourself real quick, and that reputation will follow you to UPT. You'll have a target on your back before you know it.

Once you get to UPT, the guys in your class are your new family. You guys should be attached at the hip from start to finish. Study together, fly together, destroy the bar scene together. You can't get through the program as solo and if you're too busy spending your weekends doing your own program, you'll find yourself behind your classmates before you know it. If you show up with a bad rep from your casual unit, the IP's will be much harder on you than anyone else. Them knowing your name before you show up as a potential doosh is a bad place to be. On the other hand if you leave your casual unit as someone they like having around, the same will hold true. Keep up that program as a stud. Work hard, play hard, be involved, keep the coffee hot and the corn fresh. You don't have the time to be running off on your own, worrying about paying for your plane, flying, etc. 60 hour work weeks and "mandatory fun" on the weekends are going to eat up 99% of your time.

Once you do earn your wings, you're going to show up to your unit as the new guy, again. The same rules that held true as a casual/stash will hold true as the FNG. Your only job in life is to listen, work hard, and become the best tactician in the squadron. Your first year is where your reputation in your community will be made. If you find yourself in a fighter unit, when you're not tackling the hundreds of small jobs of running the squadron, your place is in the vault studying weapons, tactics, TTP's, and becoming a lethal wingman that doesn't require baby sitting. You want to be the new guy that the senior LT's and Capt's see on the schedule as someone that's going to show up, ready to learn and employ. After that first year you'll be buried in working on your section lead qual (or whatever the Air Force calls it). This will be one of the most challenging things you'll ever do in aviation, since you're not cool enough to land on the boat. Proving that you can plan, brief, lead, and execute something like a self escort strike, effectively, then debrief and teach it to a new guy. After that, you'll find yourself being tasked with much more responsibility and leadership. You'll be the one taking the new guys in the squadron out and kicking their asses into a lethal force.

This whole time you're striving to be the best pilot in the squadron to avoid the UAV/AETC draft. You want to go back to the RTU and instruct, or go on to the weapons school for follow on orders and stay in the cockpit. If you find yourself going heavies/tankers, all the above still holds true.

THEN, 7-8 years after commissioning and after your first tour, you may find yourself in a position both financially and with the free time to own/fly your own plane.

What's my point in all this? You need to rethink your priorities right now as a senior. You've got a long/hard road ahead of you, and with the budget cuts coming down the road you've got to absolutely be ahead of the curve if you want to stay in the cockpit beyond your first tour. The USAF is actively drafting pilots for anything and everything not aviation related. If you finish your first tour as just a mediocre dude in the squadron that merely existed and showed up to work during working hours, your first tour may be the only one you do in an actual cockpit over the duration of your commitment.

Good luck, your time as a UPT stud and first tour is going to be one of the most memorable times in your life if you make the most of it, but the changes coming down the line are going to make it extremely difficult.

Off my soap box now! Have fun, it's going to be a blast. (Oh and single seat is where it's at).
 
Say Sig...

...what do you charge for this bit of sage, experienced advice?

NADA...the beauty of this forum!...now, you've led the horse to water...

Thanks,
 
Sig:

You would be right about my head being in the wrong place...If I were planning on buying now. I'm not. As I said a few times already, I know it's going to be a few years at the very least before I'll be in any position to own an RV. I accept that. My career is more important to me than owning a plane. I know it's going to be awhile, give me some credit here! Right now I'm just trying to get plugged into the community, learn, talk to pilots, meet people, and learn (yes I said learn twice).

I really enjoyed your post because it is full of great advice. Most of it is stuff I've heard before, but it is stuff that's worth hearing again. I've already been clinging to guys out of UPT, I've gotten UPT and T-6 pubs, and even got in touch with a T-6 IP. I fly aerobatics with a former IP who is drilling me on all the UPT maneuvers and teaching me to think like a UPT student. I am thinking ahead because I want to do well. I know what I need to do and I'm willing to do it. If that means I have to wait on owning an RV, so be it. I'm not going to allow anything to distract me. Shoot, I'd like to buy a dog as soon as I graduate. I know what breed I want, I have a name picked out and everything. I love dogs. But I know better.

I love getting the opportunity to talk with guys like you, because it sounds like you've been there. I'd love to pick your brain some more about lieutenanthood/pilot training, if you don't mind.

Thanks for the post!

BTW, what was your platform?
 
StickandRudder said:
...

VariEze
Pros:
-FAST
-Outstanding fuel burn
-Pretty affordable
-Great range
-Looks neat
-Made by Rutan
Cons:
-Limited on aerobatics (as is my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong)
Click to expand...

You're correct about the aerobatics. There is a service bulletin out that limits the VariEze to 2.5g positive, and I think even less negative. As I recall, the issues are:

  • Corrosion in uninspectable areas can weaken the wing attachment
  • Coupon tests have shown that the wing spar caps often do not achieve the expected compressive strength

As I understand it, the LongEZ is not subject to these issues.

Thanks, Bob K.
 
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I feel ya..

Harry (StickandRudder) knows exactly what he is doing. Having gone to the Air Force Academy myself - I know he is no dummy. On top of that, making it to his senior year - I know he is determined and hard working.

By nature, anyone that has gone to an Academy is a dreamer and has high goals for himself. I still am to this day! Harry, like he said, is just getting plugged into the community and feeling things out. I recently joined this forum as well - doing the same thing.

I admire him for asking the questions. I went solo on my research, went to my bank and bought an RV-10 empennage kit without even having the tools first. LOL! It is a difficult, costly, long-term goal but so is going to the Academy (you pay for the Academy in other ways). :) I chose the RV-10 because it's the best (flame suit - engaged.. haha). I aim for the top in everything I do - I think StickandRudder does too.

Anyway, I say use the 35k on a plane. You're a natural problem-solver, you'll figure out a way to make it work. Owning a plane is much cooler than having a nice car. Drive around a beater and take the girls up in the RV.
 
hammondam said:
Anyway, I say use the 35k on a plane. You're a natural problem-solver, you'll figure out a way to make it work. Owning a plane is much cooler than having a nice car. Drive around a beater and take the girls up in the RV.
Click to expand...

Thanks! I'm amazed at how many grads I've run into just in this thread. Pretty crazy. But yeah that's what I figure. I'm an outdoorsman too so I drive around something I don't mind beating up. I have no need for a corvette...Any hotshot can buy a sporty car, but how many guys can take a girl for a ride in their airplane?
 
Food for thought...

Harry,

The good thing about this forum is the diverse experience from all the different backgrounds on here. Sounds like several grads responded and some retired/active military dudes too. Lot of good advice floating around. However, if you solicit advice on this forum, you will be pointed towards an RV. But that's not a bad thing. Disclaimer: It's the first plane I've owned, but have flown a few other types for some comparison.

I'll try not to interject my .02 on life after usafa, and merely share my experience. I graduated from the zoo in '08 and purchased my own RV-8 about a year ago. I first started thinking about an RV as a senior, and have been watching the market for one since then (here, barnstormers, etc). I attempted to finance and purchase RV's twice and ended up giving cash for one in the end. Sounds impossible but with the loan, a couple years casual plus upt, and then TDY for RTU you can scrape it together. When I moved to my first base, I found an -8 for sale a couple hrs away and I decided to finally pull the trigger on a flying one that was sound but could use some cosmetic improvement. Since then, I have been able to gradually make minor improvements all while keeping it flying to enjoy pos G acro and taking trips with friends at modest operational costs. I flew it across country to Tx and back and in that trip probably gained an equivalent amount of aviation experience as I did throughout the entire year of UPT. Now I find myself deployed or on the road more often than back home and have kept a longer lease on my hangar than any of my houses.

You WILL find yourself very busy the next few years- in my opinion the current market will allow you to buy one for less than the cost of the materials and workmanship, while saving you years of your life that you simply don't have. I may later carry regrets for not building it myself, but the additions I put in to make it 'mine' combined with being able to fly it from the get go will outweigh those reservations.

Bottom line: it is very doable to purchase and operate an RV as a young officer but will require some patience. The appeal to logic in the total performance concept and aesthetics make it tough to pick anything else. Additionally, you will have the support of a community comparable to that in military aviation and in some ways better. The ever changing culture of the AF and associated frustrations make it even nicer to be able to fall back on the asylum of some good, pure flying in an RV.

Looks like I failed at keeping my .02 cents out, but if you have any more questions feel free to email me. For everyone else, feel free to step in and correct me where I am mistaken, I'm new at both the military and the RV game.

PS- the guard is one of those good things you never hear about until after you graduate and always wonder why you never thought of earlier. If anybody's unit is hiring please drop me a line.
 
StickandRudder said:
What resources can I consult that will have info on what flaws to look for? This is the aspect of experimentals I'm most apprehensive about. If I can find a good one though, I'm certain it'll be worth the hassle. I haven't seen any factory certified planes that can do everything an RV does for anywhere near the price range.
Click to expand...

Sorry to be so tardy with my reply.

There are on-line communities for both the Thorp & Mustang.

Thorp is at
http://thorp18.com/
(available by email or forum format)
Mustang is at
http://www.mustangii.net/maillist.asp

I still monitor the Thorp list, but I gave up on the Mustang guys years ago because, unfortunately, a lot of them seemed to spend too much time running down other homebuilts for my taste. I don't see this as a criticism of the plane; just some of the owners.

You mentioned a fairly long timeline to ownership. To learn about what to look for during your wait, I'd suggest at trying to read through the entire archives on both forums. I'd suggest the same thing for this forum & the Matronics RV-list, too, but that might not be humanly possible due to the overwhelming volume. The 1st thing to research on the Thorp would probably be mods to the horizontal tail, followed by motor mount/main gear cracks. For the Mustang, look at forming of the wing leading edge and at main gear attachments.

If you're thinking RV-4, research motor mount/main gear/firewall attach weldment cracks.

(See any common threads?)

That should get you started...

Charlie
 
A dissenting opinion

StickandRudder,
With all due respect to Sig, who is exactly right about a young fighter pilots life, let me give you another perspective. I was you 14 years ago (Class of '98). I went VFR direct to Sheppard for UPT, then spent 3 years as a FAIP flying T-38s before going to Seymour to fly F-15Es. I'm actually writing this from Afghanistan, where I'm deployed with my combat fighter unit.

Yes, the next few years are a busy time, but I bought my RV-6 tail kit one month before I started UPT (against some similar advice) and finished it during that year. The truth is, everybody in pilot training (and in every stage of training) has something they do with their Saturdays. No one can study UPT stuff or tactics 24/7 - you have to have something outside of work to decompress. For me, it was the RV project. For others, it was chasing women and boozing (I was married). To each his own.

I continued to work on the project as a T-38 FAIP (volunteered for that - its a long story), as an IFF student, as an F-15E basic qual student, as a Mission Qualification wingman, as a line wingman, and a flight lead. Eventually I finished it (took me 7+ years). Building an airplane was one of the most life-defining things I've ever done - I wouldn't change a thing. I have several friends that have also successfully balanced an airplane project with a career in fighter aviation.

It doesn't sound like you are interested in building one right now, but don't discount the possibility of doing it, even when you're young and busy. If you wait for a time in your life that you're not busy - you'll never do it. Life is busy for everybody, in all walks of life. If you want to do something like build or own an RV, you're just going to have to make it a priority in life and realize it will take the place of one or more other pastimes. For me, it has been totally worth it. Keep mulling it over and saving money. Some day you might decide it's worth the sacrifice, or maybe not. Life is about choices, after all.

Good luck out there - and if you go to Sheppard, be sure to spend some time over at Wichita Valley airport. They have the best aviation community in North Texas. And if you go casual to Nellis, I'll see you there and you can help me on my new RV-10 project!

Cheers and good luck out there,

Jordan "Gadget" Grant
 
Having flown all three of the metal low-wing, side-by-side planes on your list, I think any of them would be a good choice. All three are light on the controls and fun to fly. As someone pointed out, the Mustang II lands faster, and if I recall clearly the Thorp lands a little faster than the RV too, but not much.

Personally I still think the Mustang II has a better looking wing than any RV, with the exception of the "evo" wing that was available for the Rocket for a while, but that's not really an RV anymore anyway. Both the Thorp and the Mustang II had options for folding wings, and I seem to recall reading that the folding wing on the Mustang II was actually stronger than the straight wing... But it was heavier.

All three should give you excellent performance on reasonable fuel burn from an O-320. They're all a little limited in baggage carrying, the RV-6 probably the best of the three in that regard. If you and your passenger are under 180lb, chances are it won't be an issue... So not *too* much beer on the weekends... :)

I've seen a few Thorp's and Mustang II's for $25-$35K in the last few months, but RV-6's are currently trending between $45-$65K. The housing crash drove prices down a couple of years ago, they have recovered a little but the recession is likely to drive them down again in the next year or two. There will be some good deals coming up for people in the market for flying planes.
 
StickandRudder,
With all due respect to Sig, who is exactly right about a young fighter pilots life, let me give you another perspective. I was you 14 years ago (Class of '98). I went VFR direct to Sheppard for UPT, then spent 3 years as a FAIP flying T-38s before going to Seymour to fly F-15Es. I'm actually writing this from Afghanistan, where I'm deployed with my combat fighter unit.

Yes, the next few years are a busy time, but I bought my RV-6 tail kit one month before I started UPT (against some similar advice) and finished it during that year. The truth is, everybody in pilot training (and in every stage of training) has something they do with their Saturdays. No one can study UPT stuff or tactics 24/7 - you have to have something outside of work to decompress. For me, it was the RV project. For others, it was chasing women and boozing (I was married). To each his own.

I continued to work on the project as a T-38 FAIP (volunteered for that - its a long story), as an IFF student, as an F-15E basic qual student, as a Mission Qualification wingman, as a line wingman, and a flight lead. Eventually I finished it (took me 7+ years). Building an airplane was one of the most life-defining things I've ever done - I wouldn't change a thing. I have several friends that have also successfully balanced an airplane project with a career in fighter aviation.

It doesn't sound like you are interested in building one right now, but don't discount the possibility of doing it, even when you're young and busy. If you wait for a time in your life that you're not busy - you'll never do it. Life is busy for everybody, in all walks of life. If you want to do something like build or own an RV, you're just going to have to make it a priority in life and realize it will take the place of one or more other pastimes. For me, it has been totally worth it. Keep mulling it over and saving money. Some day you might decide it's worth the sacrifice, or maybe not. Life is about choices, after all.

Good luck out there - and if you go to Sheppard, be sure to spend some time over at Wichita Valley airport. They have the best aviation community in North Texas. And if you go casual to Nellis, I'll see you there and you can help me on my new RV-10 project!

Cheers and good luck out there,

Jordan "Gadget" Grant
Click to expand...

The fact that he is Navy gives Sig a much different perspective than AF. My current AOC is Navy LtCdr, and was a backseater in F-14s for a few years. It is a totally different world, and seems like a bigger commitment in many ways. I actually talked to him about it yesterday and he told me how only one of 7 bullets in your performance report is related to how good a pilot you are, that on a ship you have other jobs in maintenance, admin, you command troops etc whereas AF guys largely just fly for a large part of their career. Interesting to hear the different views.

The benefit of me having a dozen different hobbies (I do) is that I will be able to find something to do on the weekends, even if I'm trapped in Enid Oklahoma. I had been thinking I'd most likely fall back on my firearms hobby since there's not much backpacking or climbing in OK. Building an airplane would be neat I'm sure, but I want to get some experience building first...For that reason, your suggestion about Nellis does appeal to me. I'd LOVE to help you on your project, because I could learn first hand about building and see if it is something for me. Plus, being at Nellis would give me a chance to learn about the fighter community, AND I could grill you about it. 15E is one of my favorites. I want either one of those or an A-10. 22 only drops once a year anyways, so those are my top two probably. :D On top of that, Nellis is only a few hours from one of my favorite spots on earth: Zion National Park. I'll have to consider it...I had been thinking of staying in Colorado if I could, or possibly Elmendorf.

I won't be heading to Sheppard. I'm not ranked high enough in my class to compete for ENJJPT...I'm not a "two-oh and go" guy, but I'm incredibly average. You need to be top 10% these days is what I'm hearing..

Snowflake: Good stuff. Nice to know all that. How's the RV-4 for baggage? Cause that's what I'm leaning towards right now.
 
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>I fly aerobatics out of meadowlake! Love that place. Do you know Gar Frith? I've seen the RVs there...Hoping I can bum a ride in one. Know anyone I could talk to? I think I'm primarily interested in a 4 or an 8.


Read about my vist, I just drove around the hangers and talked to some of the pilots I met.
 
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