J

jFly

I'm New Here
My private checkride is on the 24th. Then at some point I need to plan some time off work and a trip to TX or OR...I figure I can get my TW endorsement and RV transition in a single set of training. I can possibly do this within the next month...

My questions:

Would it behoove me to wait until I have all that done before shopping? I ask because there are a many examples currently for sale listed between here, Controller, Barnstormers, Trade-a-Plane. A couple seem to have pretty fair asking prices, and these are on here. (Why are message board owners more connected to pricing reality than general classifieds owners?)

Pre-purchase inspection - When hiring someone to do this, do you send them off and wait for a report back? Is it best to go visit the airplane with the inspector? Given the timing of it all...if it's a good a/c and a deal is made, ideally I'd ferry it home myself. More fun and less expensive, yah?

BTW...I can pretty much swing $30k at the moment. Possibly $40k. Gonna work on selling 2 or 3 motorcycles and getting a $10k loan, which will give me more than enough ...In case you know of any leads.
 
The guy who built my current -4 learned to fly in it after he built it. The guy who bought the previous -4 I owned was a pilot but without tailwheel time. He brought a friend who had RV tailwheel time to the purchase, & his friend flew it home with the purchaser riding in back.

So, you should be fine learning after purchase.

Flying one on a long cross country with minimal TW time & no time in type might not be as good an idea, depending on your capabilities & other experience. Changing weather/wind conditions might sneak up on you & exceed your experience/capabilities. Or maybe not, if you're a quick study or you luck out on the weather issue.

FWIW,

Charlie
 
You will need insurance, especially if you are borrowing money. To get insurance, you will need transition training in a tail wheel RV, as you indicate. I inquired about that once and as I recall 20 hours of tail wheel time was required. It was enough that I decided to stick with an A model! I don't know how many flight hours in addition to that you would need for an RV-4 to get insurance. I highly suggest you call up an aviation insurance broker to see what insurance is available for you and what their requirements are.

In the meantime, read all you can about the RV-4, to include purchasing the plans and building instructions from Vans. If you can swing the insurance, cost of tail wheel transition training, and are ready to buy, why put it off? The sooner the fun begins, the longer it will last! By all means, go along with the inspector so he can point out things to you. Consider buying from a builder who will agree to do the condition inspection each year (though many won't out of liability concerns), and have him fully explain the operation of the aircraft to you completely.
 
I'd say the right airplane will come along on it's own schedule... Your status as a TW pilot with RV experience only matters if you MUST fly it home by yourself. I'd say however that you will have plenty of time to get TW/RV experience before you are ready to pull the trigger on a purchase... It just seems to work out that way.

Also, in response to the above post - the need for insurance is misleading - good idea, sure - but there is no requirement for aircraft insurance of any kind. Plenty of owners have done a risk assessment and decided to self insure. You will need to examine your risk posture and come to your own conclusion.
 
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Of course if you don't borrow against the airplane, you don't need insurance. You definitely need transition training. Budget accordingly.
 
Wow! I love the ambition! Reminds me of myself 3 years ago. :D

It is a buyers market for sure. I've been watching the rv4 market for quite a while and traveled to look at quite a few in the $40-45k range that turned out to be very marginal. In hindsight, using this forum to find someone local to the airplane to render an opinion would have saved me quite a bit of time and money. In any case, the best advice I can give you is to not rush into a deal. I don't have a crystal ball, but I don't believe the market is going to change significantly over the next few years.

Another factor to consider; I could not get insurance to cover me in an RV with less than 200 hours total time. If that's a factor for you.

I know of an rv4 for sale that is very remarkably excellent build quality in the Portland, OR area. I'll PM you the details. You can also find training from a few sources in this area as well.
 
The loan I get, if I get it. Would be from family. So the plane will not be borrowed against. It would also be just short term to ensure I can get through immediate training (TW and transition). I'm getting out of motorcycle racing to do this. I figure it's time to stop going in circles and to maybe do a little traveling. =) In a few months and after selling a few motorcycles my loan would be paid back.

Getting the TW and transition training within a month or so is definitely doable if I go through the planning and vacation time off work.

So it sounds like it really comes down to the right plane appearing, and logistics. If I am not trained up and ready to fly it home, I could be paying to have it ferried.

I likely would have to pay to have someone travel to pre-purchase inspect the plane depending on the plane location.

That Utah RV-4 in the classifieds looks like a potential, "inexpensive" candidate?
 
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I'd suggest that take your checkride then build some tailwheel hours and get your endorsement while you look for an airplane. When you find "the" airplane, get a local RV builder or hired-gun expert to have a look at it. Once you make the deal, Hire a RV transition training guy to fly out with you and pick the airplane up. That way he can give you instruction and training on the way home (you're paying for the gas either way). Then have him stick around a few more days to get you up to speed on everything else.

I finished my private in a TW airplane and so the biggest transition to the RV for me was getting used to the speed, how to slow the airplane down, etc. Once I got the sight pictures, learning ground handling and landing was no big deal (MASTERING it is a different story) that'll be different for you though, if you have <20hr TW time. Be realistic about how much time it'll take with an instructor to be comfortable, and you'll be fine.
 
jFly said:
That Utah RV-4 in the classifieds looks like a potential, "inexpensive" candidate?
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Low time for a 21 year old airplane. Sitting can be as hard (or harder) on an airplane than flying.

Here is a 17 year old airplane with 1600 hours. 100 hours per year is about right. First run engine and I know this airplane to be a smooth running machine. FWIW.
 
Hey- I am also in the Market for an RV-4 and plan to buy as soon as I get my TW endorsed..
I have shopped around with many insurance companies- look at NationAir and AIG.. I spoke with Jenny Estes at NationAir and she told me to plan on having at least 10 hours in an RV (typical -4 training is done in the RV-6) plus a TW endorsement. She mentioned a $40k hull premium plus the typical liability insurance (which is required out of some airports, tho not by FAR 91) policies range from $1800 to $2200.. so not a terrible idea until you are as one with your new investment. Then drop to a lower insurance.

I have a single and multi, but zero TW time so thats what Im working on now. My almost 2k hours as an FE hold no water on the civilian side.. Bummer..

BTW- where are you located? There are a number of RV-6 and 7 CFIs out there that will help endorse you while giving you the training you need to insure your new plane.

Good Hunting
 
jbagley- I was looking at that airplane too, does that engine TBO at 1800 hrs?
If so, that mean I would have 200 hours before investing in an overhaul (and the joys therein) what would you expect an experimental overhaul with minimal issues to run? I have heard everywhere from $8k to well over $20k.. that seems like a huge factor to gamble with very shortly after purchasing... What do you think?
 
NavyIBNFE said:
jbagley- I was looking at that airplane too, does that engine TBO at 1800 hrs?
If so, that mean I would have 200 hours before investing in an overhaul (and the joys therein)...
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In our world "TBO" is only a negotiating point during sale - not a requirement. The right engine willl go well past the factory TBO.
 
NavyIBNFE said:
jbagley- I was looking at that airplane too, does that engine TBO at 1800 hrs?
If so, that mean I would have 200 hours before investing in an overhaul (and the joys therein) what would you expect an experimental overhaul with minimal issues to run? I have heard everywhere from $8k to well over $20k.. that seems like a huge factor to gamble with very shortly after purchasing... What do you think?
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It's a sweet plane. I know both the builder and the current owner (who is also a builder). The engine TBO is 2000 hours. It's 17 years old since new, gets flown regularly and is well taken care of (always hangared in Oregon). If I didn't have a flying RV then I would buy this one.
 
That sounds like a solid bird with your guys' endorsements!
I do like it, would like to test fly it with the owner around Christmas If its still available.

The only thing is- with the engine being a bit closer to TBO- does that affect the negotiating terms as far as price? I have never bought a plane, many cars, but the last thing I want to do is offend the owner of a very nice airplane and Im sure he knows its value MUCH better than I.
I would be financing a portion of it, I hear NAFCO is good with experimentals so I would need to contact them and see what I can do before making any sort of contingent offer. I will be getting my TW transition + endorsement in December before Christmas!
 
Of course engine hours are a negotiating point. TBO's aren't mandatory, but common sense says you have to build in a bigger engine reserve fund into your numbers for a high time engine than a lower one. Although, as others have said, a low time engine that has just sat around, not flying, is not a great deal either.
I wouldn't worry about offending the current owner. It's your money. Many owners are emotionally invested in their "baby", and not realistic about actual market value. One more thing: there are some people who really value good looks, and will pay a premium for a cosmetically perfect airframe. This drives up the price of these showcase aircraft. You can save some money if you can look past a fair paint job and less than showcase interior, but mechanically sound, aircraft. For the amount of money involved here, you want to hire an experienced RV builder or A&P to do a pre-purchase inspection on any aircraft you buy. This is standard and shouldn't insult anyone.
 
Use care in your "pre purchase inspection". Since the term is not really defined, some with an A&P rating will peek thru the crack in the door and count the wings, if they are both there then it is passed and you must pay..
A person that has built one and maintains one is worth a dozen A&P's that never even saw one. Besides being far far better, an experienced builder will most likely do it for free even.
 
Now THAT is a good pre purchase inspection, well worth the money, with superb credentials to do the job right.
 
The Utah RV-4 looks like a good entry-level aircraft, albeit with low time on an older airframe. Personally I wouldn't shy away from anything that had flown 30 hr/year though, and was well maintained and hangared. Regular use is more important than actual total time, I think?

The yellow and blue -4 doesn't look like there's much room for negotiation... Yes, it's a higher time engine, but I think it said it was first-run, so the first overhaul could be quite cheap. And it does have some nice features... Dynon, av8or, nice paint, etc. Based on what I've seen lately in the market, it's priced about where it should be. Of course, it never hurts to make an offer... :)
 
DonFromTX said:
Use care in your "pre purchase inspection". Since the term is not really defined, some with an A&P rating will peek thru the crack in the door and count the wings, if they are both there then it is passed and you must pay..
A person that has built one and maintains one is worth a dozen A&P's that never even saw one. Besides being far far better, an experienced builder will most likely do it for free even.
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That is true of any pre-purchase on any aircraft. An A&P with experience on type should do the inspection. Knowing what to discuss up front and what criteria to use is also critical. Many A&P's have not built a 182, Bonanza or any other multitude of types but are still subject matter experts when it comes to inspecting them. Therefore I see no requirement needed to have built one as long as they have experience in the type.
 
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