Ironflight

Ironflight

VAF Moderator / Line Boy
Mentor
For those with GRT panels, they released the latest software drop today (if you haven't already heard)! Lots of new stuff - the maps now show roads, population centers, railroads, etc. Getting better for VFR, that's for sure! There have been tweaks to the autopilot steering laws, and some cool features I've wanted - for instance, you can now set the red line to be a "barber pole" like variable that shows you the IAS that corresponds to a TAS limit - since the flutter limit on RV's is based on TAS, that is really convenient for high speed descents! (Guys with rocketized RV's may want to ignore this....)


I loaded up the new releases this afternoon and headed out for a quick evaluation flight. Unfortunately, a thunderstorm popped up and I had to race home, not able to take any picture - those will come when I get the chance. There is also a new AHRS load, but I didn't take the time to upload it in to my units - I want to see if it fixes the heading errors we have seen crop up after three (plus) turns in the "Commercial Death Spiral" maneuver.

Once again, all this stuff is free, as it is from most of the experimental EFIS companies - how can you beat that!

Paul
 
Hey Paul, any idea if the new map functionality is compatible with the H1 hardware? I noted the various new databases on the support site, but info on the v34 upgrade for H1 (HWS) was sketchy.

Jim
 
Full coupled ILS approach in the NEW GRT software

The button pushing on an full ILS coupled approach (one needing course reversals etc.) using the info from a Garmin 430W has now been simplified. It works just like the ILS approach using vectors. Arm the approach, select GNAV, and sit back.

Alas, this is not the case with a GPS/LPV approach. You still have to wait until established to ARM the approach.

If you arm it early, bad things happen. If you forget to arm it after getting established, the needles will appear but the autopilot is not coupled.
It works so much smoother now on the full ILS approach, I hope GRT will standardize the LPV approach also.

Again, GRT Avionics has done a good job! Thanks to all in Grand Rapids!:)
 
Bug fixed in new GRT software- ILS frequency in GNS 340W

:)A l known "bug" in the GRT EFIS software has now been fixed. Before if an ILS/LOC frequency was loaded in the Garmin 430W, a GPS/LPV approach could not be loaded in the GRT EFIS. This has now been FIXED! Thanks GRT!

Now I still wish the turn and bank indicator moved in the direction of the bank...for us old guys who have been flying like that for 40+ years. When I bank to the right, I want to see the needle move to the right....I know this is not the way the bank indicators in the HEAVIES work....but I am flying a RV9 not a 747 ;)
 
Good news, Bad news

The bad news is that GRT pulled the new software because of a problem with the AHRS 33 part of the new load.

I downloaded and installed it before it was pulled. I installed the new software on my dual Horizon I (WS). The first thing I noticed is that the new map looks great (I run 1 screen in Map mode all the time). Private airports are now shown, so there were a ton of airports cluttering the screen. There are new map settings, I changed the "Show Small Airports" to 10 miles to remove the clutter. Anything greater then 10 was too cluttered.

I also installed the Water and Roads databases - looked great from what I could see without flying.

The new AHRS V33 gave me the leans, so I going to re-install V28.
 
Revision Control? Change Control? Release code reviews? Unfortunately these are some of the first things to fall prey to lean times and small teams.
 
scard said:
Revision Control? Change Control? Release code reviews? Unfortunately these are some of the first things to fall prey to lean times and small teams.
Click to expand...

I can't agree that lean times or small teams caused this ... I use to work for a large company with 100's of programmers, testers, and customer beta programs (RockwXXX). We still got product to market with Thurday (yes it was to be Thursday) in our entire software package. I took customers in the field to tell us we couldn't spell. That was after two years of development.

on the other hand GRT got it fixed in one day!

 
Yup - got home today from a day of flying at work, and saw the note about their mistake on the AHRS software. That was on top of their redo yesterday on the correct version. I'd rather they slow down a tiny bit in their excitement to get the new stuff out.....;)

Fortunately, I am MUCH slower to update my AHRS software than I am the Display software, and still had V28 loaded. I always keep the previous software load on a thumb drive in the cockpit, and generally stay about a rev behind on the AHRS.

Paul
 
Ironflight said:
Once again, all this stuff is free, as it is from most of the experimental EFIS companies - how can you beat that!
Click to expand...

This is not a slam on anyone but an observation. I work in the IT business and one thing that I wonder about is the viability of providing software updates "for free" like forever. I'm sure we all know this stuff isn't "free" as there are real costs associated with producing it. There may not be a price charged to provide it but I'm sure the guys doing the coding are cashing a paycheck, there is always the light bill to pay, etc.

A big source of ongoing revenue for manufacturers of hardware products with embedded software is the "software maintenance fees" usually associated with providing bug fixes and new features. Obviously as the installed base grows the real cost per user to provide the release is less as the costs can be amortized across the installed base while the variable costs are minor given the low cost to distribute the code. While the fees some manufactures charge seem a bit over the top not charging anything seems a questionable business practice.

Of course as consumers we enjoy "free" - but how free is it really if the viability of the provider becomes in doubt? Ask any Blue Mountain user if you have any doubts.

I'm not questioning the viability of any particular manufacturer but when I sink tens of thousands of dollars in my avionics for my -10 I do plan to perform what level of due diligence I can into the long-term sustainability of the provider of the gee-whiz boxes. The engineering aspects of delivering these systems is fairly well understood science and not likely to trip up any of the current crop of providers. The business aspects of navigating a challenging global economy will likely prove more difficult and determine the ultimate winners in the end IMHO.
 
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rbibb said:
This is not a slam on anyone but an observation. I work in the IT business and one thing that I wonder about is the viability of providing software updates "for free" like forever. I'm sure we all know this stuff isn't "free" as there are real costs associated with producing it. There may not be a price charged to provide it but I'm sure the guys doing the coding are cashing a paycheck, there is always the light bill to pay, etc.

A big source of ongoing revenue for manufacturers of hardware products with embedded software is the "software maintenance fees" usually associated with providing bug fixes and new features. Obviously as the installed base grows the real cost per user to provide the release is less as the costs can be amortized across the installed base while the variable costs are minor given the low cost to distribute the code. While the fees some manufactures charge seem a bit over the top not charging anything seems a questionable business practice.

Of course as consumers we enjoy "free" - but how free is it really if the viability of the provider becomes in doubt? Ask any Blue Mountain user if you have any doubts.

I'm not questioning the viability of any particular manufacturer but when I sink tens of thousands of dollars in my avionics for my -10 I do plan to perform what level of due diligence I can into the long-term sustainability of the provider of the gee-whiz boxes. The engineering aspects of delivering these systems is fairly well understood science and not likely to trip up any of the current crop of providers. The business aspects of navigating a challenging global economy will likely prove more difficult and determine the ultimate winners in the end IMHO.
Click to expand...
If your idea of sustainability holds true for everything, then I have to ask how do you account for Microsoft sustaining its highly profitable business when it "gives away for free" all of those Windows updates. Or, for that matter, how in the world do any of those Linux developers survive giving away the entire "kitchen sink" for free?

Sustainability is not solely tied to monetary value. There are many many other ways to gain value. In fact, your notion that the only way a company can provide quality service is if they receive a high level of monetary compensation. In a way, this reminds me of the quote from the movie Wall Street when Gordon Gecko (Michael Douglas) exclaims: "Greed is good!"

I would question how many companies think in this same line when pricing their products/services.
 
RVbySDI said:
If your idea of sustainability holds true for everything, then I have to ask how do you account for Microsoft sustaining its highly profitable business when it "gives away for free" all of those Windows updates.
Click to expand...

Well I didn't intend to start an argument but I did specifically state hardware suppliers with embedded software. Comparisons to pure software are not as valid nor is Microsoft who has an industry unique positioning having their code embedded in every PC produced on the planet.

I stand my my statement as in every situation there is no free lunch. The costs are real and must be paid. All we are talking about is the mechanism to do so. If they aren't paid then the company will potentially fail. How they are paid is the question.
 
rbibb said:
I stand my my statement as in every situation there is no free lunch. The costs are real and must be paid. All we are talking about is the mechanism to do so. If they aren't paid then the company will potentially fail. How they are paid is the question.
Click to expand...

I am not a software designer, economist, or business major, but my thought is that the new software is being developed to entice future customers to buy the product. It is being given to the old customers to promote customer loyalty. They HAVE to develop new software features to stay competitive, so those costs are there regardless of the old customer base if the company/product is to survive.

Fortunately for us, all of the major experimental EFIS companies are doing free upgrades (even Garmin) for software functions - so long as it doesn't require new hardware. Note that all of the companies (Dynon, AFS, GRT, Garmin, TT, MGL...) DO get more money from their old customers by selling a faster, fancier hardware set when the old stuff can't support the newer software. (Most of them also give you a generous trade-in allowance to do so!)

Telling your loyal customers that they have to pay for every little upgrade is going to be like Jeppeson forcing us to pay hundreds of dollars a year for database updates.....yet for some reason, those of us who fly IFR DO that.....:rolleyes:

Paul
 
Ironflight said:
Lots of new stuff - the maps now show roads, population centers, railroads, etc.
Click to expand...

I could not see any roads or other items in my moving map updates.
I tried a few different views and zooming around.

I also clicked my heels together 3 times. No joy.

I did notice a few changes.
 
Kahuna said:
I could not see any roads or other items in my moving map updates.
I tried a few different views and zooming around.

I also clicked my heels together 3 times. No joy.

I did notice a few changes.
Click to expand...


you have to download those databases separate from the nav database.
 
New Software in Sport HS

I have a single screen Sport HS. I loaded the V7 software, V.34 AHRS, additional databases, and flew it today for a short time. All seemed to work just fine. I really didn't have time to play with all the new features (hopefully this weekend I will :D). One thing that I did notice is that the GPS screens now load much faster when changing the range than they did in the previous version. Also, when making steep turns with the previous version, the GPS screen would get all jumbled up. It kind of seemed like it would paint one screen image over the previous image making it unreadable. This appears to be fixed in the new version as well.
 
First impressions on the new GRT software

I loaded the new update this morning and then flew a short flight. The update takes about fifteen minutes (the AHARS update takes the longest).

First you update the EFIS software
Then the AHARS software
Then the navigation database (if it is not already up to date)

As others noted you need to load several more databases (roads, water, railroads, populated areas) in order to see the new map details. In my case I do not have any extra interal storage on my Horizon I's so I will need to keep the USB sticks in the front of each Horizon in order to use the enhanced map features.

There are LOTS of details (too many if you ask me). The good news is that you can turn them off individually and set the range on which they will show (or not show). You can also choose which map views (North up, Track Up etc.) show map details. My sense is that if you are a VFR pilot that likes to identify things on the ground it will be fun, but otherwise all the details are just eye-candy.

I think I will keep bodies of water and populated areas turned on but leave the roads and railroads off.

I don't really like the new greenish background for the map views. It makes it more difficult to see the airspace boundries and other details. You can turn it off and keep the black background.

The enhanced airport database looks nice. It shows many more airports including private and restricted airports. Well done there.

I had previously had problems with my Horizon I's not agreeing with each other (roll and heading were both affected). I made many calls to GRT but never really 100% fixed the problem (steep turns would sometimes still cause the two displays to "split". The good news is that I tried everything I could to make them split this morning (lots of yanking and banking, uncoordinated turns etc.) and they never disagreed. I am cautiously hopeful that this new update fixes them.

Overall a very good update from GRT.
 
I updated mine yesterday. I never used the gps on my GRT because
I didn't like black screen or the lack of information. After the update
it is everything I wanted in a gps. Thanks GRT!
 
I flew with the new EFIS software and AHRS V28 today. I also loaded the water and roads databases.

I agree with Bruce on the background screen color, it's much more difficult to see the airspace boundaries with the Color On. I turned the color off. Flying around the DFW area, one of the things I really like about the GRT is the great job is does displaying airspace boundaries.

I also liked the old Nav DB that does not have all the private airports better then the latest Nav DB. While I was flying, I changed the Moving Map setting for Small airports a number of times. For me, the problem is that if setting the Small airport range low (10 ) also turns offs small public airports.

For example, flying from 52F to Decataur (KLUD), Bridgeport (KXBR) doesn't show up if the Map range is 35 and Small airport setting is 20. If the Small airport range is raised enough to see XBR, the clutter factor with all the private airport is just too much.

GRT really needs to add another filter setting for those of us that don't want to see all the private airports.
 
cleve_thompson said:
The button pushing on an full ILS coupled approach (one needing course reversals etc.) using the info from a Garmin 430W has now been simplified. It works just like the ILS approach using vectors. Arm the approach, select GNAV, and sit back.
Click to expand...

Cleve,
Can you elaborate on the FULL ILS button please. I did not make any approaches today with the new software but did not notice any difference in the buttons or the options that it gives you.

Also, it looks like if you down load the SW that includes the AHAR, you will get ver .33 of the AHAR, at least that is what happened to me. I need to make another run to the airport tomorrow and see the AHAR only software comes in .34

Another issue that I noticed, I do not see the roads, etc in my HX. I am not sure if it is due to AHAR .33 as I could see them in .28

If any one has notice any good and useful futures in the new SW, I would appreciate sharing it. One thing that I am interested to find out is the fine tuning for the auto pilot and the oscillation that it induces with the old SW.
 
Bavafa said:
Another issue that I noticed, I do not see the roads, etc in my HX. I am not sure if it is due to AHAR .33 as I could see them in .28

If any one has notice any good and useful futures in the new SW, I would appreciate sharing it. One thing that I am interested to find out is the fine tuning for the auto pilot and the oscillation that it induces with the old SW.
Click to expand...

As has been mentioned a few times, you have to go back in to the web site and download the new databases for roads, etc. - each is a different database. The new software has a menu on one of the setup pages for downloading and updating each one. You won't see them until you do. I made the same mistake, and got it second time around.

I did some testing on the pitch oscillations yesterday, and it is much more solid than the previous version. haven't done it aft aft CG's yet (the demanding case) - will hopefully get that today. Louise has to get current in the Val, so I'll be aft ballast.....;)

Paul

Paul
 
rbibb said:
A big source of ongoing revenue for manufacturers of hardware products with embedded software is the "software maintenance fees" usually associated with providing bug fixes and new features. Obviously as the installed base grows the real cost per user to provide the release is less as the costs can be amortized across the installed base while the variable costs are minor given the low cost to distribute the code. While the fees some manufactures charge seem a bit over the top not charging anything seems a questionable business practice.
....
I'm not questioning the viability of any particular manufacturer but when I sink tens of thousands of dollars in my avionics for my -10 I do plan to perform what level of due diligence I can into the long-term sustainability of the provider of the gee-whiz boxes. The engineering aspects of delivering these systems is fairly well understood science and not likely to trip up any of the current crop of providers. The business aspects of navigating a challenging global economy will likely prove more difficult and determine the ultimate winners in the end IMHO.
Click to expand...

new business models advocate "free". http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/16-03/ff_free?currentPage=1 you can also read his book if you get the chance, "Free" by chris anderson.

specifically for software updates for an efis manufacturer, it seems to me much of it is promised as part of an initial roll out and is considered by the factory part of selling the hardware. adding new features, fixing problems with older software, etc. I would hope no manufacturer ever charges for fixing problems, and from my personal point of view they can consider adding new features as part of staying competitive in business, so its part of selling more hardware.

just my thoughts
 
Ironflight said:
As has been mentioned a few times, you have to go back in to the web site and download the new databases for roads, etc. - each is a different database. The new software has a menu on one of the setup pages for downloading and updating each one. You won't see them until you do. I made the same mistake, and got it second time around.

I did some testing on the pitch oscillations yesterday, and it is much more solid than the previous version. haven't done it aft aft CG's yet (the demanding case) - will hopefully get that today. Louise has to get current in the Val, so I'll be aft ballast.....;)

Paul

Paul
Click to expand...

Thanks Paul,
I am going to make another attempt at it today. I had downloaded the individual DB before and while I was running .28 on the AHAR, it was showing them. I am also hoping the individual SW package for the AHAR is the correct version .34

Word of caution that the complete package has AHAR version .33 despite the description that says "includes AHAR ver. 34"

Will see if this will get things in order.
 
I flew a XC with the updated software (Ver7 and AHRS 34 for the Sport SX) today and am very happy with the update. One thing I noticed that was an issue for me previously since I only have a single screen Sport SX was that the leaning function was not visible on the triple split screen so I'd have to sit on the engine page to lean using it. Now it shows on the split screen so a quick flip to the engine page to turn it on then back to the PFD/Map/EI screen for the leaning.

An irritant was that unless you zoom in you cannot see the altitudes for the airspace. Around my area we have some pretty complicated airspace and assorted Bravo shelves to deal with between three major airports, BWI, DCA, and IAD.

Overall a huge improvement. Next step....being able to have the gps fight planning screen as either a pop-up or where the EI triple split screen is located so I don't have to flip multiple buttons and lose all SA while putting in a flight plan. The GRT internal gps is what I use as my primary navigation tool.
 
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Download again if in doubt

(I am using Sport SX). If you got your download from the site before Friday (Aug 26) you may need to repeat the download. I downloaded the SX files (vers 7 and vers .34) on Wed. Loaded again the AHRS only Wed night since I already loaded both on Tuesday. I thought I did not need to reload vers 7 since no word was out on that changing (just AHRS). However I only succeeded in getting .34 to show on the screen when I reloaded vers 7 Friday before reloading AHRS. I should have reloaded vers 7 earlier since it only takes a couple minutes. I flew 3 legs today using all added databases. Worked perfect. I use Trio autopilot, which was not tracking the SAP well before during the last mile. The one appoach today brought the plane to the runway a few feet from the centerline and I kicked off the autopilot at 10 feet. I don't have coupled pitch. I did three sets of double rolls at altitude in a 2 minute period and the EFIS never got more than a second behind the plane. Both the Sport and the Sport SX did well in that area before. Now it is even faster.
 
Merdad, You asked,
Can you elaborate on the FULL ILS button please. I did not make any approaches today with the new software but did not notice any difference in the buttons or the options that it gives you.
Click to expand...

I fly from an airport without a tower and beyond radar coverage of "center" so to do an ILS approach I can't fly vectors so I must do a course reversal to get established. The Garmin 430W gives full GPS steering instructions to the EFIS and the autopilot can fly this hands off. However, before the last software update, you couldn't "arm" the approach (on the menu's 2nd. page) until you were established on final or nearly so (about the time the 430W automatically switches to VLOC. Now, just as soon as you activate the approach in the 430W you can arm the ILS approach on the EFIS and no more buttons need to be pushed.
I also noted that you can leave the lat nav menu on GNAV and it would still work.
Just an aside. It was at first disconcerting to see, while established on an ILS approach, that the info in the left upper quadrant of PFD said LOC until I "flew into the glide slope". At that point, it finally said ILS Previously, it had said ILS loaded. I looked 2-3 times to re-assure myself that I had in fact ARMED the ILS not the localizer approach.
Isn't flying fun?
 
cleve_thompson said:
Merdad, You asked,

I fly from an airport without a tower and beyond radar coverage of "center" so to do an ILS approach I can't fly vectors so I must do a course reversal to get established. The Garmin 430W gives full GPS steering instructions to the EFIS and the autopilot can fly this hands off. However, before the last software update, you couldn't "arm" the approach (on the menu's 2nd. page) until you were established on final or nearly so (about the time the 430W automatically switches to VLOC. Now, just as soon as you activate the approach in the 430W you can arm the ILS approach on the EFIS and no more buttons need to be pushed.
I also noted that you can leave the lat nav menu on GNAV and it would still work.
Just an aside. It was at first disconcerting to see, while established on an ILS approach, that the info in the left upper quadrant of PFD said LOC until I "flew into the glide slope". At that point, it finally said ILS Previously, it had said ILS loaded. I looked 2-3 times to re-assure myself that I had in fact ARMED the ILS not the localizer approach.
Isn't flying fun?
Click to expand...

That previously held true for other approaches as well, such as an LPV approach. I barked loud quite some time ago about how silly all the button pushing was, only after established inbound. Glad to hear that is fixed.
 
cleve_thompson said:
about the time the 430W automatically switches to VLOC.
Click to expand...

Thanks Cleve, it makes sense now.
On the other hand, my 430W does not automatically switch to VLOC if a ILS approach is selected. It only gives a message and ask you to switch to VLOC. I am wondering if that is a setting on the 430 that can be change to do this?

BTW, I was able to get .34 AHAR installed after reinstalling the EIFS software again.
 
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