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SteinAir

Well Known Member
Just a little teaser....I don't suppose any of you are wandering around the LSA expo in Sebring and happened to notice some new glass for our experimentals did you? Perhaps something maybe some of you expected, but not quite yet?

No...not from the usual suspects (not AFS/BMA/GRT/Dynon/TTFS).....

If nobody answers, I'll post more details when I get a few minutes! :D

Cheers,
Stein
 
Kinda looks like the 696 might have had a few siblings back in the closet we didn't know about , doesn't it?

This should REALLY make the avionics world more interesting!
 
There are some coming out of the former east german /europe countries..... they have been seen in Oz anyway.

Is this what you mean? ;)

DB:cool:
 
From the website:


Future enhancements to the GDU 370 will enable it to accommodate not only MFD capability, but flight and engine instruments as well. Primary Flight Display (PFD) attitude/directional guidance with ADHRS+Engine monitoring will be available in the second half of 2009. And up to three interlinked displays will be supported in a full Garmin G3X retrofit suite, with reversionary capability for added safety.
​

Makes me want to start another build!
 
From Garmin's press release

"Customers seeking to expand their GDU 370 or GDU 375 to a full G3X system, may purchase the G3X PFD kit that includes an ADAHRS and EIS, magnetometer and temperature probe, when available, that is preliminarily priced at $9,995.00"

Definitely competition to GRT, Dynon, AFS etc., though at the high end of the price spectrum (an equivalent Dynon/Avmap combination comes in at about 1/2 the price quoted).
 
Maybe Van's will add this to the standard config of the RV-12


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Note that they have an SD card slot on the front, where the 696 has it on the side.

This is what Cessna has put in the Skycatcher. Same form factor, probably same hardware with ADHRS addition.
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FliteCharts

The only drawback I can see so far is the fact that if you don't subscribe to the FliteCharts, the function disables itself after 6 months. The days of flying VFR with old databases are over.
 
Lycosaurus said:
"Customers seeking to expand their GDU 370 or GDU 375 to a full G3X system, may purchase the G3X PFD kit that includes an ADAHRS and EIS, magnetometer and temperature probe, when available, that is preliminarily priced at $9,995.00"

Definitely competition to GRT, Dynon, AFS etc., though at the high end of the price spectrum (an equivalent Dynon/Avmap combination comes in at about 1/2 the price quoted).
Click to expand...

Which makes you wonder... "why?", and makes Dynon and MGL products look all that much better. But then I've always felt that Garmin was overpriced. As a side note... I'm cheering for Lowrance to pull out an updated tablet style GPS. :)

DJ
 
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Interesting. If you price a standard size GRT HX with engine monitor and a GPSMAP696, you come in at about the same price ($9.5K). I think the vertical orientation of the screen will limit what they can do with the unit as an EFIS.

Not sure at this point whether it changes any of my buying decisions.
 
I'll start by saying that obviously this won't be for everyone, so if it's out of your budget let's not flame and complain about it or slam the mfgr for where they priced their unit. I can certainly empathize with that position, but I realized long ago with many things in life that it is what it is. For example, I like BMW's and wish I had one, but I drive a Dodge because it's all I can afford. I don't slam BMW for selling their cars at the prices they do because maybe someday somehow I will be able to get one.

Now that we've got that out, I can say that Garmin has spent a fair amount of time on this project and this isn't a case where we are getting a second hand marine unit or something or a "hand me down" from another product line. This is another unit aimed specifically at us - homebuilders - and should speak at the very least to the fact that Garmin is paying attention to this market. The 240 Audio panel was/is also a unit aimed only at us. I guess what I'm trying to say is that people should realize that Garmin is no longer ignoring this market. So, it may cost more than some of us like, the premium does include more than paying for a logo.

I think it'll be interesting to watch the development and growth of this line of products. We don't even know where the end pricing will be for an all out installed system, but Garmin did do a fair amount of research on that subject as well. It will be higher priced that some of the competition no doubt, but when the dust settles it might not be as bad as some are making it out to be. It's going to be a little bit of time before we can do an actual apples/apples comparision to tell where it falls with competing products, but I'm betting the overall "big picture" of it in an entire panel won't be as bad as you think.

My 2 cents for now!

Cheers,
Stein
 
Regardless of Garmin's price or features, I think it's good news. If Gamin is making investments in the experimental market, that means they believe there is market share that is available. That is good news to all EFIS vendors.

The good news for us consumers is that the other vendors are going to have to start accelerating delivery of new features to stay one step ahead of Garmin.

It is certainly going to be an interesting year.
 
Panel Mounted 696?

So, feature wise, the GDU 375 is a purpose built panel mount 696 but with the ability to do full EFIS/EMS in the future? In other words, in it's current form, does it do everything the 696 does?
 
f1rocket said:
Interesting. If you price a standard size GRT HX with engine monitor and a GPSMAP696, you come in at about the same price ($9.5K). I think the vertical orientation of the screen will limit what they can do with the unit as an EFIS.
Click to expand...
Umm, the way I read that is that the 10k is just for the AHRS and EIS modules that you add to a display - "Customers seeking to expand their GDU 370 or GDU 375 to a full G3X system, may purchase the G3X PFD kit that includes an ADAHRS and EIS, magnetometer and temperature probe, when available, that is preliminarily priced at $9,995.00." So, for a single AHRS, single display, XM WX and EIS package, that's about $15k. A 2 display package is going to be $18k and change.

They're aiming this at the EXP and LSA markets. One has to wonder why you'd want that kind of glass integration in LSA, which are (currently) limited to VFR. That's a lot of money for VFR avionics. If you really want a dual-screen EFIS for VFR, why not go for GRT Sport or Dynon?

At the moment, the best part seems to be the easy mounting system (more a traditional panel mount) and the future expansion. For LSA, the EIS function is more important than the AHRS / EFIS function IMHO.

TODR
 
Yep, you're right. I didn't read it that carefully. Makes my decision to stick with GRT even more correct.:eek:

You raise an excellent point. My guess is that everything is coming out with glass nowadays and they probably figure that if they want to sell any of the LSAs, they are going to need that "modern" look and feel.

If they turn one of these into an EFIS unit, they are going to have to design a user interface that's totally different from everything else out there today because of the vertical versus horizontal orientation. I'm sure they can do it though. I agree that their entry into the experimental marketplace is good for competition and good for us in general as long as they don't do the same thing that they did to Apollo.
 
aimed at Aspen

It seems that this might be the spinoff of a certified program. The Aspen Avionics PFD/MFD has appeared to have had quite a bit of success in its initial full year in the market. The interoperability info on the new Garmin made me feel like I was reading an Aspen brochure. All of this is good for GA.
 
I think that one of the most interesting things about this new line for Garmin is that they clearly recognize that there is a market in our general price range. Yea, I agree, this is still considerably more expensive that GRT, but it is a WHOLE lot lower than when they announced that you could buy a G600 system for your experimental for what, $60,000?!

The moving map/database capability of the 696 is unbeatable by any of the current manufacturers stuff that I have used, and having it in a panel mount is pretty cool. Yes, their intended price for the AHRS/PFD is still out of my personal price range, and they also have to work on an engine/system monitor package to be fully integrated. But the fact is, they are finally moving in the right direction. The brightness and clarity of the display is certainly outstanding, and their software design and feature set is quite deep.

This certainly would be an option for someone starting a clean sheet design - at least (for now) in the mapping function category.
 
Ironflight said:
.... Yea, I agree, this is still considerably more expensive that GRT, but it is a WHOLE lot lower than when they announced that you could buy a G600 system for your experimental for what, $60,000?!
....
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You mean ...
the G900X for $60,000
the G600 for $30,000
and now the G300 for $15,000

seems like a fairly complete product line, even if the entry level is a bit steep.
 
w1curtis said:
You mean ...
the G900X for $60,000
the G600 for $30,000
and now the G300 for $15,000

seems like a fairly complete product line, even if the entry level is a bit steep.
Click to expand...
One thing to add to the G600 - it's more like $36 since you have to have a G430W (or 530W) as the nav source.

The nice thing about the product line is that it all works the same way - consistent user interface in terms of hardware and display symbology. You can transition from a G300 in a skycatcher to a G1000 in a skyhawk just fine (although you're still flying 115 kt :) ).

TODR
 
Garmin has the juice to penetrate the certified market - this move increases demand

stu517 said:
It seems that this might be the spinoff of a certified program.
Click to expand...

More accurately, the certified market has to be one of their goals and they've got the clout to penetrate the legalese. When my Cessna friends look at my panel with three screens for less than the cost of "steam" they drool at first and then get angry because they can't do the same.

The retrofit market is positively huge if someone can crack the legal obstacle course that precludes the latest in technology.

Garmin has the juice. So does Honeywell.

Barry
Tucson RV9A 106 hours
 
Still an EFB?

Garmin's website does NOT mention or address the issue of whether the GDU 370/375 has class 1/class 2 electronic flight bag (EFB) capabilities. If the 370/5 does posess EFB capabilities one would expect Garmin to tout it on their website, since they actively do so for the 695/6. The 370/5 and the 695/6 both have Garmin's Flitecharts and SafeTaxi charting software, which I believe is what provides the necessary charting capabilities for the 695/6 to be eligible for EFB classification. Does anyone have information on this?

I was reading a blurb last summer from Garmin about their GMX 200 MFD and it said that product (with Flitecharts, SafeTaxi and even Chartview, which is their geo-referenced approach plates software) does not "qualify" as an EFB and that physical charts must still be carried in order to be IFR legal. Minus Chartview, these are (I believe) the exact same software packages that are on the 695/5 and that provide the charting functions which enable it to be classified as an EFB. So it appears that Garmin offers different products that run the same charting software, but some products qualify as an EFB and some do not.

The GMX 200 is a "certified" product and the 695/6 is not...and perhaps that is part of the distinction between the two regarding EFB status. But the 370/5does not appear to be certified either, so I would expect that it would be classified as an EFB when it has the same charting software/capabilities as the 695/6.

What am I missing?
 
If you have been following my building progress on my little website, you may have seen pictures of my panel and not realized what the three big holes are for...

20080920_switches1.jpg
20080920_panel3.jpg


20080920_radios.jpg
20080920_panel4.jpg


mcb
 
MrNomad said:
The retrofit market is positively huge if someone can crack the legal obstacle course that precludes the latest in technology.
Click to expand...

It seems to me that Aspen Avionics has cracked it. Their PFD/MFD combo is certified and covers almost all of the planes currently flying under 6000#. Now they are slowly moving up the ladder to some of the business twins. My only point is that Garmin has to realize that at $30K the G600 is non-competitive for most retrofits.

On another note, ANN is stating that the full price of the 375 with PFD capabilities will be $10K which amazingly enough is right in line with Aspen's pricing.
 
mburch said:
If you have been following my building progress on my little website, you may have seen pictures of my panel and not realized what the three big holes are for...

mcb
Click to expand...

Can't wait to see it with the "toys" in place Matt!
 
Since Matt seems to have had some inside info way ahead of time on these new units, maybe him or someone else in the know can answer these questions:

1. What kind of capabilities do they plan for this system as far as providing EHSI display and integration with external TSO'd Nav radio's, GPS's etc. so we can use these things in an IFR environment?

2. What kind of AP integration capabilities are planed?

3. What industry standard data bus formats are they going to support?

4. What kind of redundancy method is planned for the AHRS? Dual AHRS support/ auto crosschecking and failover?
 
Well, you might say I have some friends in the industry... I'm sworn to secrecy, but I know those Garmin engineers are always busy. :)

mcb
 
stu517 said:
It seems to me that Aspen Avionics has cracked it. Their PFD/MFD combo is certified and covers almost all of the planes currently flying under 6000#. Now they are slowly moving up the ladder to some of the business twins. My only point is that Garmin has to realize that at $30K the G600 is non-competitive for most retrofits.

On another note, ANN is stating that the full price of the 375 with PFD capabilities will be $10K which amazingly enough is right in line with Aspen's pricing.
Click to expand...

I agree. The Aspen PFD at $10,000 have been selling like hotcakes for certified aircraft while G600 sales have been lackluster. There are a lot of certified aircraft owners that want the benefits of EFIS but are not willing to put $40K in avionics in a 30 year old aircraft worth $60K before the additions.

If Garmin decides to certify the G3X for (GDU375@$3,995 & G3X kit@$9,995) $14K list, some Aspen wannabes may go this route due to the Garmin name and the larger screen. Add the second screen for $3295 and you have most of the capability G600. Not a drop in replacement for steam gauges, like the Aspen but certainly compelling.
 
rleffler said:
Regardless of Garmin's price or features, I think it's good news. If Gamin is making investments in the experimental market, that means they believe there is market share that is available. That is good news to all EFIS vendors.
Click to expand...

It may be good news for you but I believe you're dreaming if you think any of the existing experimental EFIS manufacturers will be jumping up and down with excitement about Garmin entering this market. It's already a low volume but very congested commercial environment.;)

rleffler said:
The good news for us consumers is that the other vendors are going to have to start accelerating delivery of new features to stay one step ahead of Garmin.
Click to expand...

Most of the existing experimental EFIS manufacturers are very small companies with limited capital and staff. Personally I doubt that any of them have the resources to run any faster (in terms of product development) than they are right now.

These companies will, for the most part, be financially brittle and the big danger now with increased competition in a rapidly declining economy is that one or more of them might just evaporate altogether. God knows we don't want to be left with nothing but Garmin because we all know where that leads. :)
 
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Captain Avgas said:
It may be good news for you but I believe you're dreaming if you think any of the existing experimental EFIS manufacturers will be jumping up and down with excitement about Garmin entering this market. It's already a low volume but very congested commercial environment.;)
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Exactly! This is the motivation that will truly drive the EFIS vendors. They either compete or eventually yield market share.

Captain Avgas said:
Most of the existing experimental EFIS manufacturers are very small companies with limited capital and staff. Personally I doubt that any of them have the resources to run any faster (in terms of product development) than they are right now.

These companies will, for the most part, be financially brittle and the big danger now with increased competition in a rapidly declining economy is that one or more of them might just evaporate altogether. God knows we don't want to be left with nothing but Garmin because we all know where that leads. :)
Click to expand...

Agreed, but I also believe that being small is also a good thing. Most of the EFIS vendors are driven by very talented engineers. By becoming more inovated than Garmin will keep them in business. Also, by being small allows them to be more nimble.

Todd, Rob, and Raineer have done a great job bringing new features to their respective platforms this past year. Let's hope that none of them fall asleep at the wheel and become casualties of Garmin entering the market.

Garmin entering the market also doesn't guarantee sucess for them either. Look at some of their other products they brought to market the last year or so. All companies need to continue providing great values at a great prices. Those that don't won't survive. Garmin probably does have deep enough pockets to buy market share, but history has shown that Garmin has never competed by being the low cost provider.

I'm more of the "glass is half full" type, so I believe that competition will drive inovation and enhanced EFIS features.
 
Dynon New generation 2009

I’m new to VAF community and am thoroughly enjoying becoming educated on Van RVs. I’ve recently sold a Garmin G1000 equipped turbo Cessna 182T and have become Van crazy. I plan on starting to build or buying a Van RV7A later this year (after Oshkosh, if I can make it that long). I am proficient in G1000 IFR flying and have also been contemplating how to equip a Van RV for IFR flight.

My favorite IFR set up so far is the new generation Dynon. It was announced at Oshkosh 2008 with plans to be available in 2009. It is similar to the Garmin G1000 in that most the components including the GPS receiver, Nav, radios, transponder, etc. are located remotely. If Dynon can price the integrated system similar to building an equivalent system with various currently offered Dynon products, it will be a great value.

These new Garmin products discussed here sound great too.
 
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rleffler said:
Exactly! This is the motivation that will truly drive the EFIS vendors. They either compete or eventually yield market share.
Click to expand...

Garmin's system has been anticipated for a while so I don't think you will see much panic amongst us.
It is my prediction that Garmin is going to bring out another system some time in the near future at about 1/2 the price of this one (G2XX ???).

Yes, we will compete. We're in it for the fun. It's just gotten funnier...

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
 
Predictions

I predict Garmin will come out eventually with a one piece unit that has a 696ish screen, an enclosed transponder and an enclosed radio. The indicator would be on the screen and the xpdr would incorporate the G1000 style controls..... snap in.... snap out.... and a secondary screen with a connector to link it if you want. It will of course have a card slot in the front. What sayeth the crystal ball? (It will have TCAS and reversion controls as well)
Best
Brian Wallis
 
Hey Stein,
Any info on 370/375/G3X interfaces and/or integration with external radios and autopilots?
 
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