I noticed that last night. He never bothered to mention (not that I saw, anyhow) in any of the hype for the new site that it would suddenly become a service. It's a shame...it was a wonderfully useful tool, but for $100 a year, I'd rather just buy a program (or write my own) and then not only do I own it forever but I don't have to put up with that annoying, constant advertising (acceptable when it was free, but I'll be damned if I pay one dime for the privelage of being marketed to).

C'est la vie :)
 
Trying to make money 3 different ways (subscriptions; vendor affiliations; and annoying, animated, refreshing ads) is over the top. I printed some full-size pictures of the instruments, cut them out, and taped them to the panel. My cost so far is less than a buck. Plus I can sit in the cockpit and get a better impression of the layout.
 
i just registered on the new site, and you get a few instruments and avionics to play with, but it's not enought to really use. i'd have to say that it sounds like a fairly good deal in the end...i will probably subscribe when i get farther down the road.

nice job bill. ;)
 
Bill,

The only operational thought I would pass on to you is that you have totally locked out anybody who won't pay up. In the big scheme of things considering how computer programs and utilities are usually marketed, that seems a little harsh. Almost all useful programs offer a limited use version as a freebee while holding back on allowing full use of the program for paying customers. It's a simple sales "gimmick" that has worked well for lot's of companies that sell computer services and programs.

My suggestion would be to allow users to use the epanel builder as it was before at no charge so people can "play" with it and have some fun doing the visuals of how they might like their panel to look. That would go a long way toward good PR.
Then for those users who are serious about actually using the CAD layout and cutting services etc., THEY would see the obvious value of paying for those services to execute their final design.

Considering that Panel Planner costs over a couple hundred bucks, I'd say to offer similar capability of epanel for free as before, but charge maybe $75 for the people who are serious about finishing up and physically building their panels.

If a multitude of people have already signed up and paid the money, then you're good to go. But if you find that few jump in as paying customers, then maybe the above would bring a lot of people in and pay when they're ready.
You might find that someone else will quickly jump in and introduce their own version of a "free" online panel planner in order to fill the gap you left (keeping in mind that even a "free" site like that makes money with the advertisers). If you restore the original (limited) functionality of the original epanel site, you'd be discouraging a competitor from moving in on what has been your territory for quite a while.

Just thinkin'.
 
Highflight said:
My suggestion would be to allow users to use the epanel builder as it was before at no charge so people can "play" with it and have some fun doing the visuals of how they might like their panel to look.
Click to expand...

I think I fall into this catagory. As I have not started my project yet, there's no way I'll pony up any fee, no matter how small, for a panel design service. I don't need the capability of producing a CNC-ready output. However, I was perfectly willing to lend advertising eyeballs to a non-subscription site so that I could play around with ideas.
 
Highflight said:
My suggestion would be to allow users to use the epanel builder as it was before at no charge so people can "play" with it and have some fun doing the visuals of how they might like their panel to look. That would go a long way toward good PR.
Then for those users who are serious about actually using the CAD layout and cutting services etc., THEY would see the obvious value of paying for those services to execute their final design.
Click to expand...

I'd have to agree with this. I'm still in the "fantasizing" stage, and will be for quite some time, but it's still useful to lay-out panels periodically as my knowledge level of this stuff grows. The whole-panel pics don't need to be big, maybe 600x300 (or whatever the correct proportion is), but enough to give us wanna-be's something to look at and see if our fantasy is grounded in reality or not...
When the time comes for it, I'd be more than willing to pay for the CAD and cut service.
 
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Can I offer one other perspective

Actually, this mirrors most of the prior comments. I'm right in the middle of designing my panel. It's also changed at least 10 times. This "what-if" playing is the perfect tool that epanelbuilder filled in it's prior life. 6 of those 10 changes I mentioned I did with the old free tool. That was a huge value that the tool provided. I could "try" things and see how they looked.

When the rubber hits the road and I'm ready for actual cad services because I've created my perfect "what-if", then money should come to play. But I would suggest not until. There will be too much "wasted" money on all the changes in the early conceptualizing stage.

Perhaps a compromise is a *lower* rate for panel mock up, and then a different rate for cad design, design verification and manufacturing.

You probably have the data that will tell you what you want to know.... How many hits did you have prior to going to pay for, vs, how many paid sign ups have you had since?

My my .02,
 
I have Panel Planner and everytime I open the software if it's been over one week it askes me if I want to check and download any new instruments and panels. It is very easy to stay current. I'm not saying one is better than the other only I've been very satisfied with Panel Planner.

The really cool thing about Panel Planner is I can print the full size panel on a three 13X19 sheets in full color and stick it in the plane to see if I need to adjust anything for my line of sight. Other software may be able to do the same thing.
 
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I really liked the old epanelbuilder to play with and get an idea of general panel layout. I liked it well enough that I donated money for the service. However, I'm a mechanical engineer and have access to my own cad software and machining services. I'm willing to pay some for the ability to test a lot of ideas in a short period of time, but I'm not willing to pay $100/year for services I won't use. Especially since I'm at least 3 years out from actually building my panel.

I would really like to keep playing at designing my panel in my spare time (especially while I'm at work ;) ), but I can't afford $100 to do what is mostly a recreational activity at the moment. I would have to quit playing at panel design until I was sure I was <1 year out. Bummer!

As others have said, I would be willing to pay a lesser rate for the ability to drag all of the latest instruments around, and possibly print or save them without having to do a screen capture. I tend to keep a document with a running list of all of my panel ideas.

My 2cents,
Guy
 
too expensive$$$

hi

to chime in with previous posts:

we have been users of epanelbuilder to play around with basic layouts and concept of instruments.

of course we were looking forward to the new version :) but then the first negative surprise was, that it was now subscription based... never mentioned beforehand, not even a figure in $$$ published before you register... so first thing, reading through the fine print just to make sure, that we won't pay before we know it...

i was expecting to pay something for the "true" benefits, like cad-production straight out of epanelbuilder, but wished even that feature would be paid for by whoever does the cutting in the end since it brings customers straight at them.

but the current model is just plain unattractive for several reasons:
- first it's just too expensive... for a drag & drop, concept drawing feature i would pay maybe $10 once and that's it. not 10 times as much.
- a panel/homebuilding project doesn't take 3 months, it doesn't even take one year... it will take 3-5 years. so the time based subscription model is bound to be doomed.
it was fun to play around even before we ordered the empennage kit. so realistically people will now only be able to start to play around in the later stages. but having a good idea about costs of avionics etc... is very helpful early on.
- many more points can be criticized...

i gotta go,

i can only say we've been happy customers of bill's creativair lighting products and hope you (bill) will rethink the business model for epanelbuilder.

regards, bernie
 
Bill,

I don't mind paying for a good product, but I can't seem to find any pricing information except "Subscription based and starting at only $39.00".
 
bvondane said:
Ok guys...

I have modified the new ePanel Builder to allow non-subscribers access to the panel builders basic features and all panel templates and all instruments... You will also have access to links to the instrument manufacturers web sites as you did in the old version...

Basically you have all the same functions you had in the old version except for the last panel you worked on will not be saved... I did not have this written in to the application and have been told by my developer that it will cost more than I can afford to have it added right now...

Hope this helps with a lot of your concerns...

-Bill VonDane
ePanel Builder
Click to expand...

Uh,,, OK,,, thanks. Now that's listening to customers American style!

Jekyll
 
this has been a really great thread! customers and a service provider coming together to compromise, all within a couple of days.

thanks a million for listening bill!!
 
Bill:

Best of luck on your new venture. I think the model of allowing basic usage of the site and payment for advanced services will be a great one and should benefit you well. This model seems to be the newest trend in the on-line world (and is actually making money for people unlike the early dot-coms). I hope you do well -- you deserve it.

- Jamie
 
This is way better, Bill. I can totally get behind fiddling for free over the next couple of years, and then paying for the service when it's time to get down to brass tax and seriously get something done. Half the fun of the original sight was that I had family members and co-workers all fiddling around designing me a panel and it was a blast to see what people would come up with!
 
Bill,

I am of the same sentiment as many here. I've got a few years to go before I 'really' need to design a panel, but I enjoyed playing around with the previous version.

I think it was a very good decision to give back the basic functionality for free. This will add to the value of the advertising space on your site, as you will most certainly be getting a lot more traffic from a certain demographic group that interests your advertisers (homebuilders who will be buying instruments, avionics, services, etc. sooner or later) at a key moment (when they are dreaming about the things that they want to buy for their panel).

When I first saw that you were going to make it subscription only, my first thought was, "that's too bad, I won't be coming back to this site. I guess I'll have to do my dreaming the old fashioned way". Of course, as another poster mentioned, someone else would probably fill the gap left by the parting of your previous version. That being said, I will continue using your site to dream and will probably see your adds a few hundred times over the next five years and maybe even pony up some cash for the full service when the time comes.

Did I mention that I think your product is really cool?

Regards,
 
Kudos, Bill.

You not only did the right thing, but I think you added back a huge helping of Public Relations that will pay you back many times over in the future.

In case some of you think you might miss being able to save the panel, just hit the "PrintScreen" key and then a Ctrl-V into a new drawing within Photoshop or other similar program.
Then cut just the panel out of the center of the image, paste that into it's own new file, and save it, print it, or email it to the guys at the RV Killers forum on Yahoo.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RV_Killers/
They'd love to see what you're up to with your RV. :cool:
 
i just "redid" my panel again, and i REALLY like the new layout and free functionality. i was able to save my panel in photoshop using the clipboard. the only bad part is like bill said, it won't save your previous work. so, it has to be redone each time you go to the site, but that's livable for me! i certainly think the services offered under a subscription will be well worth it when i get closer to the panel being a reality. nice work. ;)
 
expand to see better?

I just tried it as well for the first time Bill. Nice tool. I have to go and read the directions to see if in demo mode you can expand the view so that you can see things better as well as get a cost estimate of the entire panel cost.

Like many of the guys above, I would definitely take advantage of the panel layout to CAD service as well as the cutting service. I would also be happy to pay a usage fee when I get serious about panel planning. That's a little while in the future considering I am still a month from starting my wings.

Antony
 
Listening to your customers? In *this* day and age?!?

bvondane said:
Basically you have all the same functions you had in the old version except for the last panel you worked on will not be saved...
Click to expand...

Bill, you just earned yourself a customer. I was pretty disappointed to see how much functionality was gone from the first iteration of the new free version, and frankly my first reaction was to delete your site from my bookmarks.

Now that you've taken this new approach, your bookmark is back and I guarantee you I and a lot of other guys who are at the "playing around with panel designs" stage will definitely turn into paying customers when we reach the "time to make the panel" stage. Many thanks!

Oh, and btw, for me at least, saving or not saving the last panel is really no biggie. It's like I said, the attraction for me right now is playing around with different options and combinations - even on the old site, I was constantly going back to a clean slate anyway, so losing this particular functionality really doesn't bother me.
 
yes, but it's very quick and easy. name, email, username and password is about it. he doesn't ask for payment info (for future featured use) to register.
 
Can't get the freebie part up on either IE6 or Mozilla Firefox. Definitely won't subscribe for $$$ if the free stuff won't run. When I am done fantasizing and its time to plunk money down for instruments and avionics and get a panel cut out I'll have to go with a CAD program. Can't you bring back the old epanelbuilder?
 
john,

i wonder if something in your settings isn't allowing it to open. i run mozilla firefox at work and at home, and used epanelbuilder last night, and this morning... :confused:
 
I'm using it with my Mac (Powerbook) running OSX 10.4.4 with the latest version of firefox. I registered, and can build my whole panel without paying. The pay stuff will come later :). Thanks for Mac support finally :).
 
they all work for me

Win XP, Win 2000, Mac OS 10.3.x, IE 6, Safari, Firefox all run the panel builder just fine for me. Make sure you have the most current version of Flash player installed on whichever browser you are using.

Antony
 
Any free software out?

Hi Guys

I cant seem to find any of the panel builders online?
Anybody got a working link

thanks AJ
 
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