M

mcattell

Well Known Member
Today at Oshkosh I saw some new interesting LED Nav/Strobe lights from CreativAir. Previously they had the large round circular arrays of LED lights that I wasn't too crazy about. They now have some new small Nav, Position and Strobe lights. Their website indicates 125 lumens for the Nav, 400 lumens for the position and 660 lumens for the strobe. A full complements of lights would cost a little less than the standard incandecent Whelen package from Vans. Best of all there would be no strobe supply to worry about and less current draw.

So does anyone know much more about these? Is the lumens adequate? All I know is that I was seeing spots when I left their booth.

Here's the info on the web.

http://www.creativair.com/position-strobe-system-p-104.html

By the way, I spoke to the Whelen guy and he said they are probably about a year out before they introduce an LED strobe. They actually installed some prototypes on the Cessna Skycatcher but they won't sell them until they are certified. He said the cost of the Whelen LED Nav/Position lights are about 30% more than their standard.
 
That is a sweet looking complete set! Looks really good on paper. Hopefully we will get a pirep soon.

Good price as well!
 
AeroLEDs is displaying their all-LED wingtip combo unit also. It has the Nav/Strobe/white tail light in each unit, too. With several companies offering this now, I'm really looking forward to some competitive pricing!
 
Is this everything needed?

I spoke to a nice lady at CreativAir and was told the strobes can only strobe and the steady on can only steady on. So does the tail light really replace the combination Whelen light? And It would seem the wingtip strobes only need to strobe while the nav lights are steady on green/red.

How do they look in person? The look compact and well built in the web site.
 
All New - ALL LED Navs, Postion, and Strobes System from CreativAir

dbuds2 said:
I spoke to a nice lady at CreativAir and was told the strobes can only strobe and the steady on can only steady on. So does the tail light really replace the combination Whelen light? And It would seem the wingtip strobes only need to strobe while the nav lights are steady on green/red.

How do they look in person? The look compact and well built in the web site.
Click to expand...

Hey All... Bill VonDane from CreativAir here... Oshkosh is great and the show is going very well!

I just wanted to respond to this post by saying that I don't have a nice lady, or any lady in my booth (although I wish I did!), and also wanted to say that YES, my new all LED tail light does do steady on and strobe, so YES it will replace the Whelen A500...

Check the EAA site tonight or tomorrow for a video highlight on the new products! ...I also have all the details and pricing available on my site...

Thanks!
-Bill VonDane
CreativAir - http://www.creativair.com
 
AeroLEDs will be offering an RV specific LED nav/strobe and tailstrobe (with position light) system very soon. The nav/strobe that we are showing at Oshkosh is the traditional style found on most wingtips, but is must more compact and doesn't require a brick supply, which will save a lot of weight.

The CreativeAir strobe is OEM'd from Nova, and is designed originally as a hide-away strobe for automotive headlights.

Dean Wilkinson
AeroLEDs LLC
 
Who was in the booth right next to SteinAir? They had some cool LED lights!
 
Dean_aeroleds said:
AeroLEDs will be offering an RV specific LED nav/strobe and tailstrobe (with position light) system very soon. The nav/strobe that we are showing at Oshkosh is the traditional style found on most wingtips, but is must more compact and doesn't require a brick supply, which will save a lot of weight.

The CreativeAir strobe is OEM'd from Nova, and is designed originally as a hide-away strobe for automotive headlights.

Dean Wilkinson
AeroLEDs LLC
Click to expand...


Your right Dean, I have been partnered with Nova Electronics for about 4 years now... They are way ahead of the curve on LED technology and especially the optics technology we are using in our products...

You are also right that our new LED Nav, Position, and Strobe lights came from technology proven in their automotive lines...

I did get a chance to stop by your booth and see your stuff when I was visiting with John at Titan......very nice! Good luck with the show!

-Bill
 
Do they meet the specs?

I guess I'll ask the obvious question - do they meet the FAA brightness and distribution specifications? I would think the nav lights would be no problem but I have to wonder about the strobes a little. At 660 lumens, I would think it might be hard to meet the 400 effective candela requirement unless most of the light is directed along a fairly shallow horizontal slice. The biggest problem would be for the tail strobe. It has to cover a larger arc than the wing tip strobes do.

How about it?
 
bvondane said:
Your right Dean, I have been partnered with Nova Electronics for about 4 years now... They are way ahead of the curve on LED technology and especially the optics technology we are using in our products...

You are also right that our new LED Nav, Position, and Strobe lights came from technology proven in their automotive lines...

I did get a chance to stop by your booth and see your stuff when I was visiting with John at Titan......very nice! Good luck with the show!

-Bill
Click to expand...

Hi Bill,

Sorry I missed you... I was only in the booth until mid day on Tuesday.

We have been focusing on designing custom products specifically for the aviation applications. I am very familiar with Nova's product lines, and they are well designed.

Best Regards,

Dean Wilkinson
AeroLEDs LLC
 
Not to detract from Bill's great products, but the Kitplanes Aerolectric column is in the middle of a series on building your own LED lighting. (Some assembly required. :p ) Of course, you'd have to do your own verification that the output meets the FAA specs.
 
Ah! They are using the second generation LED strobes from Nova. I remember looking at the first generation thinking that they were interesting, but didn't have enough coverage. These should work well.

TODR
 
other players

The booth beside Stein was AVEOFLASH. I chatted for a minute and grabbed their flyer. Very slick looking. I am in need of the rudder light soon, and they have a "posistrobe" that is much much nicer than the kunzleman and other led combos i have seen.
They claim to be having landing lights etc all coming soon. No strobe control boxes needed, they claim.

Really like the high tech lighting...just have not found the right package yet.
 
Did anyone see the Velocity with the inlaid lights that did patterns? I saw it at KUNU and at OSH. That is one wild LED light scheme.
 
I thnk it's great that folks like Bill bring inovative new products to the experimental aviation market, but $735 is a bit steep for me. I don't see that value that is added above what Nova ships in their product.

It appears that you can get the same thing from:

Strobes N More for around $500
Austin Electronics for around $550
Hyper-Lights for about $516
 
Nova W600 vs Nova X1100

It looks like the CreativeAir product uses the W600 strobes from Nova; Nova also sells the X1100 which is almost twice as bright (1100+ lumens vs 660+ lumens).

I've been looking at these for some time, but have waited only to see what was announced at Oshkosh this year. I'm still leaning towards two of the X1100 strobes in the wingtips; Strobes'n'More has them for $103.99 each.

The interesting thing that CreativeAir has is the combo LED/position light for $147. The steady on/strobe cycle isn't listed as a cycle for either the W600 or X1100 product on Nova's web site.

Bill - any chance you'll be offering the X1100 as a tail/position light combo instead of the W600?
 
CreativeAir and AveoLED

I had a chance to look at both of these products. They both produce a subjectively blinding light both in position and strobe, viewed from differing angles. The AveoLED lights claim to meet and exceed FAA/JAA requirements. I believe the CreativeAir light system is not as expensive as the AveoLEDs though not by much. Both systems have light control circuits in or near each light thus no long runs of high current wires from the power supply to the lights. The CreativeAir system does have a nice tail position light/strobe but I did not see one for the AveoLEDs. AveoLEDs' Oshkosh display only showed lights with the position/strobe/white rear combination light for exterior wing tip mounting. Their website is supposed to show position/strobe lights for mounting inside the enclosed wing tip of newer RVs. I could not find these lights on their site. With regards to weight, the CreativeAir lights are considerably lighter then the AveoLED lights. Overall, I liked both products but favor the CreativeAir lights for their price and weight. The one question that was not answered at the CreativeAir booth was whether their lights meet the FAA requirements for strength and field of view distribution like the AveoLeds. I will need to know this before making a final choice in LED lighting.
 
ChiefPilot said:
The steady on/strobe cycle isn't listed as a cycle for either the W600 or X1100 product on Nova's web site.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is.... Steady state is mode #8. The link for the installation manual is below.

http://www.strobe.com/images/stories/install-_w600.pdf

I'm not sure that the 1100 adds much due to the orientation of the LEDs. Having one point back at the wingtip may diminish the output unless you have some reflective material covering the wing tip.
 
rleffler said:
Yes, it is.... Steady state is mode #8. The link for the installation manual is below.

http://www.strobe.com/images/stories/install-_w600.pdf

I'm not sure that the 1100 adds much due to the orientation of the LEDs. Having one point back at the wingtip may diminish the output unless you have some reflective material covering the wing tip.
Click to expand...

That's just steady on - it's not on/stobe. What we need for the tail/position light is a flash sequence where the LEDs are dimmed but not turned off between flashes. I've been in correspondence with Nova about this, and steady state in their installation manual means no flashes, unfortunately...
 
Posistrobe

I have discussed with an Aveo rep and their tail strobe is a constant white light and a flashing strobe direct replacement for a Vans rudder light!A guide price of $260 ish experimental and approved a bit more i think is ball park?
 
Hey panda

Did you get any prices on some of there wing tips etc. There stuff looks very cool. They promise a whole package with taxi and landing lights. I would really be interested in how much that will hurt?? Any clues
 
Aveo PosiStrobe Rear Position/Strobe

I've ordered one of these from Spruce - $267.00. It is currently back ordered but expected at both Spruce East and Spruce West on 8/26/2008. As soon as I get my hands on it, I'll post some pireps and photos.
 
Whelan LED Tail/Strobe Light

I spoke with the Whelan rep at Osh regarding when they might have a combo tail/strobe LED unit to match with their LED wing units.

He indicated that they will produce one as soon as they can meet FAA requirements using the same form factor as their current A500-14 combo tail/strobe light. He stated that it's a case of waiting for brighter LEDs...maybe a year.

Mike
 
In talking again with Bill, he's stated that these are not Nova W600, but similiar to them.

He does state that his tail position light/strobe does work as expected with the position light on when the strobe isn't flashing, which may be the value he is adding as purchasing the LEDs directly from a Nova distributor.
 
Look before you leap

I just experimented with a Nova 1100 LED light. They produce horrible interference in the VHF nav and comm band. There must be a DC-DC converter in that little power supply built into the cable.

I held a handheld transceiver a few feet to a few inches from the power supply, and it made it hard to hear approach control a few miles away (I live 6 miles from Dulles.) It broke squelch even with a high squelch setting. And no, I'm afraid I can't translate that into dBm or any other quantitative measurement.

I recognize this is not a scientific test (I'm an EE,) but I see it as a problem. I tried them both in the flashing mode and in the steady (i.e. position lights) mode. In the strobes mode, I could hear the "zzzt zzzt" every time they flashed. No better than xenon strobes in that regard!

Stay tuned...I'll see if shielding or ferrite beads etc. help.

Added a few minutes later...wrapping the power supply in aluminum foil helped a lot. Now it only breaks squelch with the handheld set to the lowest squelch setting. Let me keep messing with it and I'll report back.
 
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Martin,

Please keep us informed of your informal test results.

I have order the tail/strobe unit from Creativair. It's been about three weeks, but Bill stated that in advanced of the order. And no, he hasn't charged my credit card yet.

I wanted to get one unit in hand to test it's performance before I ordered any more.

thanks,

bob
 
I just received the tail position/strobe light from Creativair this afternoon and am experiencing similiar interference as Martin did with the X1000.

These are also from Novus and the Nova part # is AVIMW6W. THey aren't on the Nova web site yet.

I will be contacting Bill to see how he has addressed this noise issue.

bob
 
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More on the EMI issue

Sorry I didn't post earlier...I've been too busy with real work to mess with my RV.

I tried to move the DC-DC converter farther from the antenna, using twisted pair to connect the DC-DC converter to the LED head. That helped a lot. Enough to stop worrying about it.

What I did is install the Archer antenna in my wingtip, then make a BNC pigtail for it. I connected my handheld comm antenna to the pigtail. I then made a 6' long twisted pair, and spliced it between the LED head and its power supply. I moved the power supply 6' away, and turned the LEDs on. No significant noise.

So what I think this means is that I can't install the power supply in the wingtip, or anywhere near it. It needs to be in the wing, far from the antenna.

It also means that if you don't have any antennas in the wingtip, you won't have my problem. And that if you're smart enough to buy plain old incandescent bulbs, you also won't have my problem!

I will do a trial installation in the wing soon and let you know how that goes.
 
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I just received an update from Bill VonDane this morning. Still no resolution on the RF issue with the strobes. I'll probably give him 4-6 weeks to resolve this issue before I move on to another solution.
 
I'm glad to see that Bill is aware of the RF issue and working it. I ordered a complete set from him 2 weeks ago and would be more than happy to wait another 4 to 6 weeks to get them if he can get the noise knocked down!

- Peter
 
Still struggling

mgomez said:
Sorry I didn't post earlier...I've been too busy with real work to mess with my RV.

I tried to move the DC-DC converter farther from the antenna, using twisted pair to connect the DC-DC converter to the LED head. That helped a lot. Enough to stop worrying about it.

What I did is install the Archer antenna in my wingtip, then make a BNC pigtail for it. I connected my handheld comm antenna to the pigtail. I then made a 6' long twisted pair, and spliced it between the LED head and its power supply. I moved the power supply 6' away, and turned the LEDs on. No significant noise.

So what I think this means is that I can't install the power supply in the wingtip, or anywhere near it. It needs to be in the wing, far from the antenna.

It also means that if you don't have any antennas in the wingtip, you won't have my problem. And that if you're smart enough to buy plain old incandescent bulbs, you also won't have my problem!

I will do a trial installation in the wing soon and let you know how that goes.
Click to expand...

Well, I declared victory too soon. I had a bad coax connector...I wasn't hearing EMI...or anything else. Now that I fixed the connector, I pick up tons of EMI.

This is the present configuration:

My LED power supply and handheld radio receiver are at the wing root, the LEDs and antennas are at the wingtip, and I get a great deal of EMI in the audio. No twisted pair or shielded cable connects them...just the pair of 22 gauge wires bundled together. This bundle is built into the wing with snap bushings, lacing cord, etc.

I can almost but not quite make out an ATIS from Dulles about 6 nm away when the LED is on. It comes in clearly when it's off.

Now that I have everything connected properly, and in the correct physical location, I'll see if shielded cable, ferrules, etc. help.

In case anyone is curious, the voltage between the Nova power supply and the LED is ~42 V. That's why they don't use a linear regulator. They have to use a switcher to boost the voltage, and that's why they're noisy.

At the risk of stating the obvious: I'm using LED strobes because I was hoping they'd be free of noise compared to xenon strobes!
 
Martin -

I actually just received a refund on the set that I ordered. Creative Air was GREAT about it and understandably bummed that Nova would work with them on reducing the RF issues.

Here is a thread I started that gives a few other options for LED strobes. I think giving it a few months will go a long way towards having a quiet LED solution.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=36653

I'm holding for now.

- Peter
 
Smart man!

N200PF said:
Martin -

I actually just received a refund on the set that I ordered. Creative Air was GREAT about it and understandably bummed that Nova would work with them on reducing the RF issues.

Here is a thread I started that gives a few other options for LED strobes. I think giving it a few months will go a long way towards having a quiet LED solution.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=36653

I'm holding for now.

- Peter
Click to expand...

Sadly, I was too stupid to order from CreativAir. I ordered from Nova (actually from one of their distributors) so I can't return them and claim "They don't work on my airplane." I may yet beat these LEDs into submission, or I may just buy something else once my patience runs out.

Thanks,
Martin
 
Abandonded Nova strobes

I messed with various chokes, shielding, physical separation between the power supply and antennas, and then gave up. I ordered my wingtip lights and strobes from Aeroleds today.

From what I've read, Aeroleds is using linear regulators, not switching regulators. That would account for their relatively big current draw and the heatsinks. They're much less efficient than switchers, but generate no EMI.

I'll take that trade so I can stop mucking with what is supposed to be a trivial part of the project and move on.
 
mgomez said:
From what I've read, Aeroleds is using linear regulators, not switching regulators. That would account for their relatively big current draw and the heatsinks. They're much less efficient than switchers, but generate no EMI.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, I didn't think about that. I wonder how hard it would be to swap out the in-line switching regulator for a linear one.
 
mighty hard

ChiefPilot said:
Hmmm, I didn't think about that. I wonder how hard it would be to swap out the in-line switching regulator for a linear one.
Click to expand...

Mighty hard, because the Nova LEDs want more than 14 V. If you're running a 28 V system, it might work (perhaps at reduced brightness), but they barely turn on at 14 V.
 
mgomez said:
I messed with various chokes, shielding, physical separation between the power supply and antennas, and then gave up. I ordered my wingtip lights and strobes from Aeroleds today.

From what I've read, Aeroleds is using linear regulators, not switching regulators. That would account for their relatively big current draw and the heatsinks. They're much less efficient than switchers, but generate no EMI.

I'll take that trade so I can stop mucking with what is supposed to be a trivial part of the project and move on.
Click to expand...

Actually, we are using switching regulators for efficiency, but have taken steps to ensure that we don't generate RF noise by careful design of the circuit and layout. The big current draw is because it is the only way to generate enough light to meet the FAR requirements. LED strobes that don't pull that much current aren't going to make it. As an example, I have measured the Aveo XP tailstrobe, and it is around 120 effective candela, while the Suntail we make is over the 400 effective candela requirement. Aveo is encasing their strobes in acrylic, which is not a good heat conductor, so I imagine that limits how many watts of power they can dissipate without burning up their circuit boards. We have to use sizeable aluminum heatsinks with enough surface area exposed to air to dissipate the heat load that is generated by the LEDs to keep the junction temperatures below their limits. We also have an over temperature protection circuit that throttles back the LED current if the lights get too hot, which can happen if the airplane is sitting on a taxi way on a hot day. In flight there is plenty of air flow to keep them cool and at full light output.

The Nova strobes are hide-away strobes that are designed to go into the headlight and taillight lenses of police cars and utility vehicles. They were never really designed for airplane requirements. Their light output does not meet the 400 effective candela requirement.

I know this isn't an AeroLEDs thread, but I thought I'd clarify the queston about whether we use a linear or a switching regulator...

Dean Wilkinson
CTO, AeroLEDs LLC
 
Thanks for the clarification

Thanks for correcting me, Dean. Sorry for mis-characterizing your product.

I look forward to installing my Pulsars!

Cheers,
Martin
 
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