T

Tom Martin

Well Known Member
I would very much like to have a phone conversation with someone who is successfully using the following equipment in IMC conditions.
AFS 4500 EFFIS, AFS autopilot, Garmin GNS430W
I am having difficulty making the transition from vectors to the final approach using the autopilot. I have a checklist that I follow but there seems to some part of the puzzle that I am missing.
If you could respond by email with your phone # and a convenient time to call it would be greatly appreciated. Email to [email protected]
 
I know it's the obvious answer, but have you given AFS a call or posted to their support forum? I know that Rob and his team are always willing to assist others.

I have a similar configuration, but I'm a couple months from flying. Then I'll probably have the same questions as you do.
 
I do it all the time.... Give me a call (503) 263-0037 ext 11

or email me your cell and I will call you [email protected]

Things to check

1. AP/FD LAT and VERT mode in ARM?
2. You have pressed VLOC on the 430W so that the GPS is in NAV mode
3. You have the Green CDI and Glide slope indicators on the EFIS
4. You set the CRS (OBS) to the ILS inbound
5. You are under the glide slope, the AP has to fly into the glide slope.

I am headed to Lancair in two hours so email your number and I will call you.


Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems Inc.
 
Rob, and those that responded, thank you. I do believe that I have most of those items covered. A couple of issues come to mind, one is that I am loading the full approach and when I activate the approach I still have to go into the flight plan to pick the "leg" that I want to be active? There was a good discussion on the AFS forum regarding not using the vector to final option when loading the approach. If you do that then none of the outer waypoints are in the flight plan and should control wish you to go to one of them you would be scrambling to find it. The down side is I believe it adds another step to the process.

The other item that could have happened is that the last vector given was not within the 30 degrees required for the auto pilot to lock on.
I will give you a call tomorrow Rob.
 
Yes, you have to activate leg if you want the best of both worlds and load the full approach (not vectors to final), but also pickup on the segment you are on- otherwise you haven't started the approach until you hit the feeder routes

this is normal and in the garmin documentation
 
The settings on the 430 flight plan should not matter at all (at least not until it comes to the missed approach, for which you presumably are using the gps) if you follow Rob's check list.
Autopilot in heading mode (set to vector) and localizer and GS "armed".
G430 with localizer frequency in active box, and CDI set to VLOC. (Note if you are depending on some of the internal 430 software to do these functions for you, then the flight plan settings may matter).
EFIS set to receive NAV data, not GPS.

BTW, if you choose to program in the full approach, an easy way back to vectors, once you're sure you won't need to go to any other waypoints, is just to push PROC, MENU, "vectors to final". I find that easier than double clicking direct on course legs in the flight plan.
 
BobTurner said:
The settings on the 430 flight plan should not matter at all (at least not until it comes to the missed approach, for which you presumably are using the gps) if you follow Rob's check list.
Autopilot in heading mode (set to vector) and localizer and GS "armed".
G430 with localizer frequency in active box, and CDI set to VLOC. (Note if you are depending on some of the internal 430 software to do these functions for you, then the flight plan settings may matter).
EFIS set to receive NAV data, not GPS.

BTW, if you choose to program in the full approach, an easy way back to vectors, once you're sure you won't need to go to any other waypoints, is just to push PROC, MENU, "vectors to final". I find that easier than double clicking direct on course legs in the flight plan.
Click to expand...

the 430W will load these into the standby spot on the NAV radio, but will not make them the active- the 530W will and it will also auto-ident
 
Here is what I figured out that I was doing wrong, I wanted to activate the next leg of the flight plan. I would go to the FPL and cursor down to the next waypoint, then hit direct, enter, enter. Bad plan. I was aborting the approach.
Correct way: go to the FPL, cursor down to the next leg waypoint, hit the menu button, the select "Activate next leg"
 
The short cut to activating a leg is to go to the flight plan and highlight the desired fix which ends that leg, then push "direct" "direct" (e.g., push direct button twice). As you discovered pushing direct once, then enter-enter, makes a new flight plan direct to that fix.

As to whether or not a 430 or 530 will auto load the ILS frequency in the standby window, or flip it into the active window, or even (I think) flip the CDI button from gps to VLOC, this is all controlled by the settings in the secret setup software (accessed by booting up the unit while holding down a button (enter I think?)). As an instructor I fly in different aircraft, and see some 430's behave differently than others because they're set up that way, so my personal habit is to enter the frequency, flip it, flip the CDI button, all manually. Not only is it easy to do, I think it keeps the pilot more "in the loop".

As an aside, one of the most common mistakes I observe pilots make is to have that CDI button on the wrong setting (they think they're tracking a gps but actually they're tracking a VOR, or vice versa). Despite the fact that the CDI or EFIS says "VLOC" or "GPS".
 
Here is a checklist that I have prepared. It is for the scenario that one is vectored to a final ILS approach. The first part is getting ready for the vectoring aspect and the last part getting set up for the approach. This is using the AFS4500, a garmin430W and the AFS autopilot. Please check my list and feel free to suggest any changes or modifications. It seems like a lot of things to have to do in a short time frame. Perhaps I am making it more difficult then it needs to be

Checklist for enroute gps LNAV/VNAV, to vectors, to ILS
Push/hold left knob to sync HDG bug with current heading
Left knob HDG, Right knob ALT
Autopilot in EFFIS mode set, AP on effis to L-HDG/V-NAV
Current ATTIS, set barometer
Load full runway procedure, using appropriate IAF
Load chart in ipad,
Set minimums bug on EFFIS
Set EFFIS VS 500fpm
Expect final control altitude assignment for approach to be msa, below glide path
Before final vector, within 30 degrees of final
Activate final approach on 430 using appropriate waypoint leg
Change CDI from GPS to VLOC
Note correct ILS frequency is active
Set inbound ILS course with left EFFIS knob on CRS setting
Left knob back to HDG
With right knob set L-ARM, V-ARM
Heading within 30 degrees of inbound course and heading bug within 40
Altitude bug must be below the glide-slope intercept altitude.
LOC CDI must be within 80% and you must be below the GS for the VER mode to change to NAV.

(note: we add the full approach, not the vectors to final, so that all waypoints on approach are accessible if needed
 
I would add the missed approach point procedure as well, since that's the real purpose of an approach, to fly the missed portion as well right? otherwise you abort an approach and land

important to have the heading/altitude familiar and ready when you have to fly it, hit the OBS button, and prepare to intercept the new heading to the hold
 
Brian
Good point regarding the missed approach. My first goal with this check list was to make sure that I had a system that would get all the equipment working correctly, including the autopilot. However on review, with your comment and a couple of changes I believe it can become a more complete checklist. Note the changes below.

Checklist for enroute gps LNAV/VNAV, to vectors, to ILS
Push/hold left knob to sync HDG bug with current heading
Left knob HDG, Right knob ALT
Autopilot in EFFIS mode set, AP on effis to L-HDG/V-NAV
Current ATTIS, set barometer
Load full runway procedure, using appropriate IAF
Load chart in ipad, review altitudes, headings, missed procedures
Set minimums bug on EFFIS
Set EFFIS VS 500fpm
Expect final control altitude assignment for approach to be msa, below glide path
Before final vector, within 30 degrees of final
Activate final approach on 430 using appropriate waypoint leg
Change CDI from GPS to VLOC
Note correct ILS frequency is active
Set inbound ILS course with left EFFIS knob on CRS setting
Left knob back to HDG
With right knob set L-ARM, V-ARM
Heading within 30 degrees of inbound course and heading bug within 40
Altitude bug must be below the glide-slope intercept altitude.
Review missed approach headings and altitudes
FLY THE PLANE
 
I just returned from a practice session at CYXU and did two successful approaches by vectors from both sides. The autopilot followed the course and glide slope right down to minimums. Following the checklist worked and now I need to refine it a bit. Thanks for all the input
 
Unless I am missing it, this process seems to be much more automated in the GRT world.

- Select your approach in 430W and make sure the ILS frequency is in the active with VLOC selected.
- Set GRT to heading mode to follow the A/P
- Once close to FF or Loc, Arm the approach in GRT
- Then just monitor and control the throttle.

The EIFS will automatically change from Heading mode to VNAV and will follow the needle perfectly (both lateral and vertical) as soon you have an active needle.
 
Mehrdad
When you break it down simply like that there are a couple of things extra that it looks like i have to do. Set the ILS course and I have to arm both the lateral and vertical features. It would be nice to have the course automatic, perhaps that is something I can do with the 430?

Thanks

Tom
 
The GRT Horizons set the course automatically from their internal database. There is a reminder to check that it's correct.
The GRT has one menu selection for "arm ILS" rather than two selections for lateral and vertical.
Once the ILS is captured the Horizon is "locked" onto it (unless you push the MISSED button), and at or after that time you can set the autopilot for the missed approach procedure (heading mode if there is a heading specified, GNAV if there is gps guidance, GNAV is the default). You can set the missed approach altitude anytime. So if you miss, you push MISSED and power up, the autopilot flies the miss. If using gps guidance you have to push OBS on the 430w to unsuspend, after the missed approach point and when appropriate.

Here's how it works at my home airport, KLVK. ILS missed approach calls for a straight ahead climb on runway heading to 1300', climbing right turn direct to LOM and then out to a hold at 3000'. So inbound to the final approach on a vector, autopilot is in heading mode, altitude hold, ILS armed. 420W has the procedure activated, ILS is active on the SL30. GRT looks for a nav input with a localizer signal and switches to it automatically at intercept and tracks inbound. At any time (this could even be before takeoff), I set the missed altitude to 3000. At GS intercept the ILS is "captured". I go into the autopilot menu and set autopilot to heading mode (nothing happens because it is locked out now) and set the heading bug to the runway heading. I can set the DA bug if desired, it is just a reminder. At anytime I can push MISSED on the GRT and power up, and the plane will climb to 3000' while now in the heading mode and flying runway heading. At the missed approach point the 420W goes into suspend. I do nothing until passing that point, and then continue straight ahead (autopilot is in heading mode, and climbing to 3000'). At 1300' I manually turn heading bug to the right, about 180 degrees. Coming out of the turn I push OBS to unsuspend the 420W, and go into the autopilot menu and change HDGING to GNAV (gps). 420W now feeds the data, the GRT plus Trio flies the published miss from there, including the hold. Actually easier to do than to write.
 
Thanks Bob, explained very well.
For the missed approach, I do it a bit different. After pressing the MISSED, I let it fly past the missed point and altitude (in your case 1300’) meanwhile pushing the OBS on the 430W (past the miss point) and only change the EIFS from Heading to GNAV. The A/P is already is GPSS mode and will follow the instructions from GPS and the missed Alt has already been preprogrammed to follow. Again, all you do is managing the power/Flap and monitoring to make sure nothing is out of whack. If there is a hold, the 430 has the instructions which will keep me in the hold as long as I let it.

With these tools, our plane flies at least as precise as any airliner :)

Having said that, I always hand fly all my practice approaches and practice one with the auto pilot engaged just to stay current with the procedures.
 
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Mehrdad,

Your missed procedure is slightly flawed for this particular case. The Garmin database does not know about the "climbing right turn after 1300 feet". The LOM is straight behind the aircraft. If you push OBS to un-suspend prior to initiating the turn, the autopilot doesn't know which way to turn and if the wrong way (left in this case) happens to be 179 degrees, while the correct way (right in this case) happens to be 181 degrees, then the autopilot will turn the aircraft the wrong way - possibly into terrain, although in this case the turn direction is only for noise abatement(!) so you'll just generate phone calls. Also, a technicality: the moment you push the OBS button the 420w draws a purple course line from the present position (off the end of the runway in your method) to the first fix in its database, the LOM. So, using your method, even if you initiate the turn to the right first, once you change the autopilot to GNAV, the autopilot will set up a 30 deg intercept and go back and get onto that purple line, then track to the LOM. There's really nothing wrong with this, at least in this case, although technically the procedure says "...right turn DIRECT LOM". If you wait to un-suspend until you've nearly finished the 180 then the 420W will provide draw a purple course line from your present position to the LOM, providing guidance "DIRECT" to the LOM.
 
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Bob,
You raise a good point, one that I have not come across to experience so far but at my home airport (KPVF) where missed approach is directly behind the approach, it has always taken the correct turn (right) during my practices.

Of course in real life, as part of my procedure to monitor and intercept anything that is not correct, I would have probably take over and hand fly it although would not have know immediately what happened :(

Thanks for the tip.
 
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