AX-O

Well Known Member
I am starting to work on my tanks. What advice can you give me? I would like to use a fuel injected engine so I think fuel return lines are required. I just don?t know much about it. I was told by 2 people to run the line to the second bay, why is that? What size line? Where to place the line? I am also installing fuel capacitor senders and a flop tube in one tank. Sorry for the newbie questions. I just got started on the research process for the tanks. Website suggestions are welcomed. Thank you!
 
According to the type of FI system you're using, a return line may or may not be required. I'm using the Silverhawk EX system which does not require a return line.

Return lines are generally put away from the pickup to prevent 'frothing' in the tank which could get sucked up into the pickup and maybe introduce air into the line.
 
Axel,
I ran a return line to the 3rd inboard bay to keep it from frothing and also to keep it out of a bay with a capacitive sender. My theory is that frothed fuel could give an inaccurate reading.

I used 3/8" tubing, and if I had to do it over again, I would go with 1/4". From what I have read, the ECI FI return only had to be 1/4".

Another thing I would do differently is in the first bay, I would route the tubing to a higher point in the tank, similiarly to how the vent tube is routed. You want to keep the tube high to keep backpressure from forcing fuel back into the system. I would keep my penetration point at the same place (top of the front ring).

Here are some pics of my setup:

Fitting on inboard rib: (Near Bottom)
http://rvplane.com/?categoryid=3&dayid=234

Inboard Bay (tank is upside down):
http://rvplane.com/?categoryid=3&dayid=238


As far as flop tubes, I don't know if my setup would cause interference. I know that Brad Oliver (http://www.rv7factory.com) documented his approach with return lines and flop tubes.
 
bullojm1 said:
As far as flop tubes, I don't know if my setup would cause interference. I know that Brad Oliver (http://www.rv7factory.com) documented his approach with return lines and flop tubes.
Ha! I knew I would get sucked into this somehow. :D

As Jamie touched on, return lines may not be needed unless you are going with the new-ish ECI injection system. If you go with the AFP purge valve set-up, you can just cut (tee) into the fuel system elsewhere but you don't need return lines in the tanks. I think the subie guys need a return line too, but I am sure one of them could tell you.

Like Mike, if I had to do this again, I would probably use -4 instead of -6. Actually, when I think about it, I am not even sure I would do it again. Not that it was a big deal or anything, I just don't know if I will use them.
 
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Don't spare the proseal,

especially around the rear baffle when you seal the tank. I think a lot of the proseal gets squeezed out when you put the skins against the baffle. Don't ask me how I know.
 
What if I don't know yet about engine choices...carborated or fuel injection?
Can a return line be added later, ie from behind the baffle, or should I plan on a return line from the get-go? Maybe it could be capped off if it's not going to be used.

I was also going to ask everyone about the inverted system flop tube? I would like to occassionally go upside down, but it seems the only real reason for a true inverted system like this is for sustained inverted flight. My old carborated Citabria didn't have any kind of inverted system, yet I had a ball doing mild acro with it.

Also I noticed that some are putting a flop tube system in one tank, and a regular pick up in the other tank?? Is this like a "best of both worlds" way of thinking?
 
Tank Hints

Keep in mind I am still building and not yet flying so take this for what you paid for it... Here are my top ten recommendations:

Number one hint ... have a riveting partner -- especially when riveting the rear baffle plate. Not that you couldn't do it alone due to access, but there are a lot of rivets and you are fighting time due to the limited setup time of the proseal. It really helps to have someone to help remove clecoes, place rivets, etc.

Number two ... the leading edge rivets of the tank skins (at least the leading 3 or four rivets) to ribs are much easier set with a partner. I would not attempt to set them alone -- ask me how I know.

Number three ... Don't attempt to do too much in one session. If you're fighting time you may overlook simple things like setting the rivets to the proper dimensions. With the proseal it is difficult to determine whether or not you are getting a proper shop head. Take your time and ensure proper setting of the rivets. Try two ribs in one session to begin with.

Number four ... If you have access to a pneumatic sealant gun - or even a manual sealant gun - and can afford the pre-measured proseal (Semkit) cartridges -- use them, it is MUCH easier. If not, the "frosting bag" method will work but is messier and slower. It is cheaper to buy the bulk quart supply of proseal from Van's and mix it yourself, but I cannot emphasize enough how much easier it is to use the pre-measured Semkits. Use the B2 (two hour set-up) proseal. I use the term proseal, which is a trademark, to refer to any of the recommended tank sealants. Regardless of which method you use have plenty of popsicle sticks available - they will come in handy, especially for faring the sealant edges.

Number five ... When you think you are ready to close the tank by installing the rear baffle, wait. Double and triple check to ensure all fittings, capacitance plates, tank internals are all really ready for finally closing the tank. Double and triple check everything, including but not limited to ensuring you safety wired the feed tube (flop tube or regular) which is a Van's AD, flared and torqued the tubes, etc.

Number six ... If you have the capacitance senders, ensure you have sealed the center conductor of the BNC connector completely. Ensure it is completely encapsulated. Others have experienced leaks in this area.

Number seven ... Most leaks have been found where the rear baffles meet the outboard and inboard ribs (in the corners). There are rather large openings that needs to be sealed.

Number eight ... Follow instructions regarding allowance for drainage requiremnets. Do not block drainage paths.

Number nine ... Have PLENTY of rags (buy a couple of boxes of cotton painter's rags at Home Depot) and and ample supply of MEK or acetone (either work well to clean up proseal), but USE personal protective equipment (PPE) - this stuff is nasty!

Number ten ... Everything must be VERY clean before sealing. Scuff all surfaces with scotchbrite and clean THOROUGHLY with MEK (or acetone). Tank sealant will stick to roughed up and CLEAN surfaces quite well. Even fingerprints can compromise the seal or cause problems later.

Number ten and a half ... Don't forget to install the vent tube clip at the fuel filler flange.

Number ten and three quarters - If you want to install the deluxe fuel caps, do it when you construct the tanks. The flanges are different than the stock Van's caps.


That's it. Sealing the tanks are not as bad as some portray. TAKE YOUR TIME and do it right.

Regarding fuel (vapor) return lines -- I installed return lines in mine because I intend to install an ECI FI system, which recommends a vapor return line to each tank. 1/4" aluminumm lines and fittings are sufficient and I installed mine all the way to the outboard bay (in parallel with the vent lines - high in the tank) per ECI recommendations (this allows maximum cooling of the returned fuel -- although I think returning to the middle bay or any other internal bay would be fine). If you plan to use return lines I would recommend using an ANDAIR fuel selector valve (available at VAN's) istead of the stock valve (when ordering the fuselage kit).

Regarding flop tubes vs. stock fuel pickups, that's a personal preferance and I have no recommendation. The regular pickups will work just fine unless you plan sustained inverted flight or extended slips (BTW I installed flop tubes in both wings). If installed in only one wing an additional placard is required.

I hope this helps. Good luck...
 
AX-O said:
I am starting to work on my tanks. What advice can you give me? I would like to use a fuel injected engine so I think fuel return lines are required. I just don?t know much about it. I was told by 2 people to run the line to the second bay, why is that? What size line? Where to place the line? I am also installing fuel capacitor senders and a flop tube in one tank. Sorry for the newbie questions. I just got started on the research process for the tanks. Website suggestions are welcomed. Thank you!
I posed that very question to Van's anticipating installation an (OEM) XIO-360. In an e-mail response, I was informed that the completed fuel tanks will NOT have to be reworked and that the drawings included with the FWF kit address return line issues. If you are planning to install an engine from an alternative source....all bets are off. When it comes to making critical decisions including high dollar technical choices, always call Van's, Lycoming, Hartzell, etc. first. You can always refer to the collective wisdom of open forums later.