F

Frank N821BF

Active Member
Hi Everyone
I just got a notice from Nationair saying that they will no longer be covering RV's, any one else get their letter yet.

Frank
N821BF :(
 
Frank N821BF said:
Hi Everyone
I just got a notice from Nationair saying that they will no longer be covering RV's, any one else get their letter yet.

Frank
N821BF :(
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I got the same letter several days ago. As it happens, I called and talked to J.T. Helms about converting my builders insurance (from Phoenix) to flying status. It is not "Nationair Ins. Agencies, Inc", but Phoenix that is dropping out of the market. Nationair will find another provider before my coverage expires in August but in all likelyhood premiums will rise with less competition out there. Even so, Phoenix did agree (effective today) to convert my coverage and is in effect on a pro-rated basis until the August expiration date.

Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla"
 
Captain_John said:
Hey Rick,

How much is your builder's insurance?

:rolleyes: CJ
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I really don't remember the exact amount, but seems it was less than $500 for 75K-80K in NON-MOTION coverage. I do know I was self-insured during those taxi tests!
 
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Self insured taxi tests!?!

Wow! You are daring!

Thanks for the info! I plan on getting insurance when the fuse is nearing completion.

Just the other day, I was considering the unthinkable... a tragedy in the garage!

If I lost it all, it would be really hard to order a new emp kit. I know that I would. It is just something I would need to do! Hopefully that would never happen!

:eek: CJ
 
Self-insuring

Self insured taxi tests!?!

Wow! You are daring!
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I don't know about "daring", but doing taxi tests, or taxiing for real without coverage is not all that unusual.

Without proper and approved transition experience, many builders will be flying without coverage for the first ten hours. I doubt any insurer will cover the first ten hours of flight if the builder/pilot has not completed approved transition training and/or participated in the EAA Flight Advisor program.

But even though I had first flight coverage for my RV-6, I still elect to carry GNIM (ground, not-in-motion) insurance. This is a good alternative to full coverage if you are willing to self-insure the hull once the engine starts. This type of coverage provides liability protection at all times but not hull coverage once the plane starts rolling under its own power. Another version of this coverage is GIM (ground, in-motion) which provides full coverage until the plane takes the active runway.

My rational is that if the plane really gets torn up, there is a good possibility I won't be worrying about repairs. :eek: If there is only minor damage, I intend to do the repair myself and not jeopardize future premiums by filing a claim. I am more concerned with hangar damage, vandelism, etc. than wadding up the plane during landing.

This means of insurance is not for everyone, but if a pilot is willing to assume some risk (responsibility?), has the financial means to cover the value of the plane, and wants lower premiums, it is an alternative to full coverage that has been used by many owners over the years.

Sam Buchanan
http://thervjournal.com
 
self ins

I agree with Sam. Although, I do feel a lot people are really "ate up" about insurance. I'm not abig proponant of insurance. I'm building an RV10 at the moment, if I can't coverage when it's time to fly it,(4 place, homebuilt?) that won't stop me from test flying it.

Marshall Alexander
RV10
wings
 
NationAir not going anywhere.

Please read that letter more carefully. Phoenix Aviation Managers has decided to get out of the business of insuring homebuilts. Those of you still insured by them will also be notified by them directly closer to the end of your policy period.

NationAir still is and plans to remain the leader in the business of insuring RV aircraft. There are only a couple of companies which are quoting RVs competitively, and NationAir works with all of the insurance companies which write coverage for airplanes, so we can take care of your needs despite Phoenix's departure.

And, yes, NationAir can get you EAA quotes as well as long as you are a current member. We work with every market out there except AVEMCO, and they haven't been competitive lately on insuring homebuilts. Those of you currently insured should receive a form to send us your updated information for this year.

It has been our pleasure to insure some of you, and we'd welcome the opportunity to continue serving you in the future. We plan on continuing to strive for better coverages and premiums with those companies that are left available to you. For example, we invited AIG's Light Aircraft Division's manager to visit Van's in December. As a company, they insured about as many RVs as Phoenix did as of December, yet they'd never been invited to meet Van. It was a good and productive meeting. We plan on continuing to better what's available to you.

John "JT" Helms
Branch Manager
NationAir Insurance Agencies, Inc.
Light Aircraft Office
 
Oops

Thanks JT and others for setting me straight. It is Phoenix NOT Nationair that is leaving us RVer's. JT I will give you a call about my options.
Thanks
Frank
 
Captain_John said:
Just the other day, I was considering the unthinkable... a tragedy in the garage!

If I lost it all, it would be really hard to order a new emp kit. I know that I would. It is just something I would need to do! Hopefully that would never happen!

:eek: CJ
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CJ,

Check your Home Owners, mine covers the plane, tools, and my labor with no additional coverage. This is because it is not an airplane until the FAA calls it one. At this point it is just parts and tools.
 
Just curious, does your homeowners policy specifically address aircraft? I know that many policies specifically exclude aircraft projects.

Steve Zicree
 
Nation Air insurance

Nation Air is a good company to go through. When I was just beginning my test flights (RV-6) I got coverage through Nation Air. I called EAA and tried to go through them thinking I would receive a big discount since they are the Experimental Aircraft Assoc. Big let down, they would not provide insurance because I was flying off a grass strip 2000' long. Min length was 2500' and it had to be paved. So much for grass roots flying from EAA. What was interesting that if my primary airport was 2500' and paved I could get insurance but I could fly to any airport and I would be covered. I would think you'd be more inclined to have a accident at a airport you are not accustomed to! Goes to show you, you need to really be careful on your coverage.
 
szicree said:
Just curious, does your homeowners policy specifically address aircraft? I know that many policies specifically exclude aircraft projects.

Steve Zicree
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Not a word about aircraft, boats, cars, swing sets, etc.

The funny thing was the conversation we had when I switched policies last year, it went something like this:

Agent: Would you like to buy life insurance?
Me: Will you cover my private flying?
Agent: No
Me: Will you cover my private flying in an airplane I built in my basement?
Agent: No
Me: Will you cover my other hobby, auto racing?
Agent: No
Me: Will you cover my other hobby, hiking & mountain climbing?
Agent: No

This went on for a few more ?hobbies? and he finally gave up.

What really frightens me is an article I read two weeks ago. Apparently many companies are not covering employees, or are charging a premium for those who participate in ?high risk activities?. No definition of what those are but I think some of the items listed above might be on that list.
 
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No Problem

No Problem. You certainly aren't the first person to think that.

We've greatly enjoyed our relationship with Van's and our mutual customers (at least most of them ;) )

We plan on continuing to be the experts in this field.

If ever any of you have specific questions about insurance, please don't hesitate to ask. Although, you might need to email me as I only read the forums occasionally.

JT
 
Insurance companies.

In response to:
Damn insurance companies!

I would say, consider the insurance company's perspective. If you were an insurance company, wouldn't you like to know what exactly the risk is that you're taking? If you sold a homeowners policy and there were no disclosure about anything but the home's value, and there was a fire claim on it. While gathering info on the claim you see that some of the items listed by you were pretty expensive, but were never disclosed to the insurance company (a conglomeration of airplane parts worth $50K, a boat, a classic car, etc.) What would you think? Would you pay the claim? (you might be forced to if your policy isn't specific enough in excluding such items... that's why they do that.)

If it were disclosed by the customer prior to the loss and it was acceptable then it would be a different story. Or they might add it. There would likely charge for a rider to be added, but it'd be covered.

My point is, even if it's specifically excluded, ask the company to add it. All they could say is "no" or they could add it for you for a small charge. If they will add it, it would almost surely be less expensive than you could cover it during the building stage than buying a separate builders risk policy.

JT
 
JT,

I am not an insurance company. I am a customer. I RARELY make a claim and always pay my premiums on time. All I do is pay, PAY, PAY! Any policy I have ever owned has gone up, UP, UP!

In my lifetime, I have paid out many, MANY, MANY times MORE dollars in premiums than have been awarded back to me in claims!

Yes, I know the deal. One day that MAY be different and I will be happy then. Odds are that WON'T happen! That is why they are so successful and have HUGE buildings in Hartford, CT and I have a small home in Plymouth, MA.

I can't and refuse to see it from their perspective.

They must expect a customer to have several potentially valuable assets. A collection of these, a special one of those or an airplane project. I am sure that if I said, "Hey, I got an expensive thing!" they would say something like, "Well that is not (or partially) covered and for $xxx.00, we can cover it for you". Then, if and when I go to claim on it, they will find a reason not to pay the claim and I will have to sue them for what is rightfully mine.

That is what they do!

Damn Insurance companies!

Jim Pappas (Insurance Agent Extraordinairre), I like the agents! Please don't be offended. They have always been on my side.

;) CJ

P.S. Are you an agent too?
 
CJ Thanks for the complement and the exclusion:)

I have been in this business for 20yrs and I still have problems with how some things work.

I do not want to impose myself in this thread about JT as it would not be right of me to do so as a professional courtesy to a competitor.

I will, since my name got brought up, add if I may, that my Homeowners Carriers I deal with ALL exclude A/C totally in the home so if an Agent tells you it is covered ask him to put it in writing for you. If he does great, if not be very careful.

Be well all and thanks again CJ.
 
Reminds me......

Jim,
When I started flying again last year. I asked my Life insurance agent if there was any exclusion in my policy for flying. The answer I got was that since I started flying after the policy was a few years old, I would be covered.

Sounds suspicious to me. I think I will ask him to put it in writing.....

John
 
Insurance

I will answer you via private email on this topic in part because this string is about another topic but mainly because of concern for your privacy.
 
Insurance Companies/Agents

Anyone you talk to about AVIATION insurance is an agent (except AVEMCO the direct writer, which hasn't had competitive rates on homebuilts in over 3 years). Yes, I am an agent.

Insurance is often times optional (unless you have a loan on the item your considering to insure).

And most people are going to pay into insurance more than they get out, as has been your experience. (The VAST majority of them.) But that is by definition what insurance is. You pay in to a pool of money, and IF you have a loss, then you get money out to make yourself whole again (indemnification).

If you don't like paying in, then don't. Of course, even if you take that $ and put it away, you may not have enough to cover a total loss until you've done that for 50 years. If you don't have a loss, though, then you go to Europe (or insert your favorite place) and party for a couple months!

I don't think it's fair to complain about paying in and never getting anything back. First, if there is a loan involved, you wouldn't have been able to get the loan in the first place without an insurance policy being available and in force. Second, you have had coverage all that time, and the secure feeling, peace of mind, whatever you'd like to call it. You sound as if you have been very fortunate. And that's great.

Others haven't faired so well, that coupled with re-insurance increases over the past few years has increased the cost of insurance.

I just don't think it is fair to complain about insurance as you have. You have the option to purchase it or not purchase it. We're certainly here if you need/want us.

JT
 
I'll back you up on that one, JT.
I'm one of those who have definitely paid zillions more in premiums over the years than I have ever gotten back in claim payments, and I'm fine with that because I understand how just one bad day without insurance could bankrupt a person.

But, (and there always seems to be a "but"), while I don't have a problem with basing rates on actuarial loss tables and stats, I have a real problem with insurance companies including their losses to fraud into the mix.

I was once in a business where insurance companies were the primary source of payment for services (auto collision repair), and I personally saw many instances of what I thought were obvious fraudulent customer claims that were paid with no question just because it was more expedient to do so. After all, fraud losses are just added to the total loss column on which premiums are set so it didn't matter; the insurance companies will get the money back anyway through higher premiums no matter what causes their losses.

As a weird example (or at least extraordinary), I had a repeat customer who admitted to me (proudly) that he had over a dozen insurance claims active at the moment because that's how he made his "living". He made his money by claiming bodily injuries where he could sue for the financially magical "pain and suffering" part of the lawsuit that can't be proven.
Interestingly enough, that same customer was murdered by his attorney a few months later over a dispute of how to divide some of the claim proceeds from the many different insurance payments; at least that was what one of his family member's claimed.
(Also interesting is that even though the attorney was the primary and only suspect, the DA could never get enough evidence on him to indict him so he's still free and practicing law today.)

Rampant claims fraud is an open secret, and I'd feel a lot better about paying premiums if I saw insurance companies being more "militant" than they are about investigating and prosecuting fraud claims.

My .02, no offense meant.
 
Vern:
I find insurance agents are willing participants in the auto insurance fraud you describe. I remember I smashed up a dooron my car onetime turning into a driveway, I cut it too short and hit a snowbacnk, only the snow had turned to solid ice.

Telling the truth would've earned me some penalty points. But I called the agent and fessed up and he said to me....

"So someone hit you whileit was parked in a parking lot?"

And I said "no, I smashed it up turning into a driveway..."

And he said, "So someone hit you while it was parked in a parking lot?"

And I took the hint and said, "Yeah, someone hit me while I was in the parking lot.?"

He probably thought he was being a good neighbor (hint) but ....

I haven't purchased my insurance yet because I'm still building. I know I'll put a bunch of money into the plane, but I can't figure out what value to give it for insurance purposes. I'm actually just thinking the cost of rebuilding it minus the cost of my time. Because it's not like I can go down to the RV showroom and order another one. I'd have to start over.

Would I save much doing that?
 
None taken

You're talking about fraud on the liability portion of the claims. Liability is cheap especially in aviation when compared to the hull (physical damage) portion of the premium. The pricing for liability for RVs hasn't changed much (at least when purchased with hull coverage) since Phoenix's departure. And I agree wholeheartedly that fraud is a problem in that area for insurance in general.

But the hull premiums increasing is really what people have been commenting on since Phoenix's departure.

JT
 
liability amounts

It seems like most people talk about 1 million in liability, but I don't quite understand what happens if you lose control of that taildragger when a big gust comes up, and you slam into a new bizjet parked on the ramp. That's got to cost a lot to fix, or am I overestimating the amount of damage an RV8 can do to a sturdy citationjet?

Any of you insurance wizards know how that is handled?

Thanks,
Mickey
 
Running into a bizjet

The most liability any of the companies will offer right now to homebuilt aircraft owners is 1 million per occurrence with 100,000 sublimit per passenger. So the 1 Million is the most any RV owner is going to have right now.

I'm sure with the damage of running into it could be considerable in and of itself, then there's always the possibility of a fire which could completely destroy it (even if you didn't have much fuel on board, the bizjet might). There are even other things to consider other than the physical damage to the plane (they could sue you for loss of their use of the plane or rental of another one while theirs is fixed.)

I'd recommend that you contact an attorney for advise if you have some assets (other than the plane). There might be some ways to protect them. (An LLC to own the plane, or put all your other assets in your spouses name, or a trust, etc).

JT
 
At a Wings seminar a few years ago, an agent talked about setting liability amounts and - if memory serves (which it frequently doesn't) - he said that no matter how much you purchase, the lawyer suing you will go for all of it. So, he said, $2 million of liability doesn't protect you that much ore than $1 million of liability (I'm just throwing numbers out here) becuase the creeps are always going to go for whatever you've got.

So if you've got $2 million in liability, they'll tailor the claim against you to $2 million. If you've got $1 million, they'll sue for the $1 million.

It was all very depressing and confusing and I've yet to purchase insurance so I'm just asking questions. I rent now but I don't buy renter's insurance. In the event someone sues me under liability, figure the insurance won't keep them from coming after the rest of my assets too...

Am I wrong?
 
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