As far as I'm concerned it would be a shame if we as pilots won't share commentary, experiences and insight into aviation related accidents. I make my self read all of the accident reports on this site because I may read something that keeps me from orphaning my three children, because of something that I don't know or doing something I shouldn't do. I understand I would be safer in a less risky hobby, but my family understands my love of aviation. Please to all those out there who may be able to pass on a nugget of knowledge that may prevent an accident, please continue to post on this site
 
rvator9a said:
... I make my self read all of the accident reports on this site because I may read something that keeps me from orphaning my three children, because of something that I don't know or doing something I shouldn't do.
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I hope you don't rely on *this* site for accident reports? Nothing here is official and you will only get the particular "bent" of the poster. I regularly read here for preliminary and factual reports. Suggest you take a look at these.
 
Tobin

Free speech here as everywhere, may offend some, enlighten other, cause others to pause and reflect, and yes on a few occassions creat bitterness. But, stay in the game.....when I get my flying magazine each month one of my first reads is I LEARNED ABOUT FLYING FROM THAT, AFTERMATH, and the ON THE RECORD! My hope is to learn from other and live another day!!!!!

I will look forward to your future imputs that may help ME save ME from MYSELF!!!!!!

Frank @ SGU and SLC RV 7A
 
Stay in the Game!

Tobin -

Anyone who does the kind of flying you have done has plenty to contribute....we're both products of aviation organizations that stress safety education, and if they didn't they wouldn't be viable.

I think the folks on that other fur-ball thread have kind of mixed too many things in there - safety messages, mishap reports (early and final), and the exploitation of accidents by the press. Too much in there not to create controversy.

Meanwhile, I am going to keep learning from both the good flying of some, and the bad judgment of others, along with the rest of the folks that fly professionally. I plan to die in bed, not in the cockpit!

Paul
 
fstringham7a said:
Tobin

Free speech here as everywhere, may offend some, enlighten other, cause others to pause and reflect, and yes on a few occassions creat bitterness. But, stay in the game.....when I get my flying magazine each month one of my first reads is I LEARNED ABOUT FLYING FROM THAT, AFTERMATH, and the ON THE RECORD! My hope is to learn from other and live another day!!!!!

I will look forward to your future imputs that may help ME save ME from MYSELF!!!!!!

Frank @ SGU and SLC RV 7A
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My thoughts mirror yours here. Great post.
 
[snipped]

This forum is by adults, for adults, with free speech rights so long as Doug Reeves allows it. No matter what a person (any person) writes on here, there will always be dissenting opinions - don't take them personally. Information is always a good thing - as are different opinions. Intelligent people will pick through all the noise and develop their own opinions and conclusions from the available data. Limiting the data limits the options.
 
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tobinbasford said:
I'm sorry you feel the way you do. Let me explain myself if I could, I'll keep it short.

I'll concede I probably spend too much time looking at accidents stats. I've been doing that for years. I do it for one reason and one reason only, to hopefully learn from the mistakes of others. Sometimes I feel like sharing what I've found and that's what I did last night, it's all about awareness. As for being a nervous nellie, maybe, maybe not, but I've been flying for 3000hrs, most of that in the Navy and alot of that around ships at night in open ocean on dark nights(not fun). 400hrs in my RV-7, day, vmc.

The general aviation reputation in the media is not from guys like me (even Flying magazine, AOPA magazine, etc, routinely report accident stats, both from completed investigations and from prelims) rather it's from pilots doing "stupid pilot tricks". Pilots are always doing dumb, dumb things but my reporting on it here on this site has nothing to do with the media's coverage of those same events.

Having said this, I will refrain in the future from posting accident related info here and commenting on any accident related posts from other posters.

Happy New Year :)
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Tobin,

You are frustrated with a prevailing attitude in GA that accidents are a way of life, always have been and always will be; and furthermore I'd rather not talk about it, think about it, or do anything about it, and don't bore me with the latest body bag count.

You've been hammered because you raise issue with the unacceptable number of accidents this month - entire families wiped out just before Christmas. Good grief, we need to talk about this carnage - it is not good. It's just a different form of down town Baghdad.

I have a difficult time comprehending some of the laissez-faire thinking expressed on this forum on this subject. A couple months ago I was royally hammered for suggesting that real pilots do not ever unintentionally stall an airplane. The response was like, this could happen to anyone so don't knock it. Same type of thinking on running out of fuel.

Yes, it happens. But for a pilot, it's like showing up at church on Sunday morning without your pants on - oh, by the way congregation, don't knock it, it could happen to you. B.S. Total B.S.

As aviators,we can and must do better than that. That is all Tobin Basford is saying. Navy carrier flying is extremely dangerous flying and he knows of what he speaks about safety, surviving and an attitude about it. If you don't like what he says, don't read it. But he speaks the truth.

We should be very concerned about these accidents, but as a group we are not. That is disturbing.

dd
 
Keep the information coming

Tobin, your posts are appreciated. Bringing home to our fellow RV pilots any number of safety issues is perfectly ok. This thread and a few others are only a small part of this site. I hear only a few voices complaining, so here is an atta-boy from me.

Regards, John.
 
John C said:
Tobin, your posts are appreciated. Bringing home to our fellow RV pilots any number of safety issues is perfectly ok. This thread and a few others are only a small part of this site. I hear only a few voices complaining, so here is an atta-boy from me.

Regards, John.
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100% agreement. Nobody wakes up and says "I think I'll go crash an airplane today" but plenty of people do just that. I like the info, especially oddball stuff that I wouldn't have thought of. I remember reading once about a guy replacing a the very lightweight fuel cap on his pusher with a more robust aluminum version. During climbout the cap came loose and took out the prop. I'm sure that danger would have been obvious to many on here, but I'm not sure I would have considered it had I not read about someone else's misfortune.

I would add (again) that using terms like "Nervous Nellie" to describe those interested in safer flying is childish and counterproductive.
 
I'm willing to listen to any pilot's experiences which might make me think twice about something. As put well by Garrison and Collins in Flying this issue- safety should be our #1 concern on each flight. Sadly when it is not, people are often hurt.

Nothing is being sensationalized here. Tobin was merely saddened and affected by all those people killed. I, like David don't get the oh well, if you fly, you could die attitude - at least he was killed doing what he liked etc. that seems to be prevalent here by some posters.

Have fun flying but maybe applying some thought to safe practices as implemented by professional pilots could be useful. The relatively recent safety training in the USMC has really paid off with a large decline in their accident rate.
 
..preventible, stupid, bad press accidents....

Captain Avgas said:
.....How can we as pilots hope to educate the press when we promulgate this sort of nonsense ourselves.
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Well, a good start would be to have fewer preventible, stupid, bad press accidents. That is what the discussion is all about.....fewer preventible, stupid, bad press accidents.

Some of us come from a back ground where preventible, stupid accidents were unacceptable. We are trying to bring some of that thinking into this general aviation world which, for the most part, we thoroughly enjoy - except for all the preventible, stupid, bad press accidents. :)

dd
 
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Pretend?

Capt Avgas says "There are people on this thread who are pretending that Tobin Basford brought some valuable information to the table in his original thread titled: OT - Bad, bad, bad month for IFR . He certainly did not ...and it would be inane to argue that anyone has, or could, benefit from the information supplied."


Let me be inane - Dear Capt avGAS - the idea is to break ground and fly into the wind. Not the other way around. There are hundreds of ways to do the latter. If the information is not helpful to you, that is ok. But there IS valuable information that may be helpful to the rest of us.

Let me expand on the origial post from Tobin about the mayhem that is transpiring. From Dec 15 to the end of the year in 2004, there were 11 fatal accidents. In 2005, there were 17. This year to date, there are at least 23 with 3 days to go.

There is now more information regarding one of the accidents referenced by Tobin. A single engine airplane in icing conditions? As reported, on Tuesday (12/26), rockwell commander 114 went down with ice. Investigator says evidence shows ice on downed aircraft's wings - JASPER, Tenn. ? An investigator with the National Transportation Safety Board said today there is evidence that ice was on the wings of a plane that went down Tuesday in Marion County, killing two people aboard.

Tim Sorensen, air safety investigator with the NTSB, said first responders
and emergency personnel found ice coating the 1978 Rockwell Commander 114.

Before the aircraft went down, pilot Michael Burlingham radioed an air
traffic control center in Memphis, Tenn., Mr. Sorensen said.

?He did report he was accumulating some ice on the wings,? Mr. Sorensen
said.

The investigator said it?s too early to say whether ice caused the crash.
He said the NTSB would release a report on the probable cause in six to nine
months.

Now, six months from now, during the summer, is this helpful? I think there is some worthwhile information right now. Mr. Sorenson may find a different cause. That is ok. We don't have to wait to think of plausible scenarios, and protect ourselves from as many as we can.

Another one:

Twin Cessna Down In PA After Pilot Reports Icing

Two Persons Lost In C414 Crash
A Cessna 414 crashed Tuesday (12/26) afternoon during an emergency landing attempt at John Murtha Johnstown-Cambria County Airport (KJST) in Pennsylvania. Officials say the two persons onboard the piston twin were killed. The FAA reports the plane was heading from Morgantown, WV to New Jersey's Teterboro Airport when the pilot reported ice accumulating on the plane. Officials say the plane impacted the runway at JST, and exploded in flames.

Is this helpful now? I think so. This is icing season. It is current? I think so. Are these correct scenarios? Who cares, it is a viable scenario, take something from it. Sometimes, there are two or three viable scenarios, but of course only one can be correct. But why not protect yourself from all three? So, as the investigations unfold, is there food for thought. You bet.

If Tobin had not drawn attention the these series of accidents, would our RV family have noticed? Would some of them have taken away a message that is helpful? Would they have explored the FAA and NTSB data bases? Did anyone find a nugget to help them? Hope so.

Regards, John.
 
Minor suggestion. If someone finds something on VAF (or anywhere else) helpful, then it is helpful to them. But that doesn't mean it's helpful to someone else.

If someone finds something on VAF (or anywhere else) to be of no use, then it is of no use to them. But that doens't mean that it's of no use to someone else.

The nature of the Internet and bulletin boards in general is that a significant amount of time is wasted believing that one person's (or one poster's) thoughts simply MUST be adopted by all others.

Nobody is capable of deciding on someone else's behalf whether information presented is or is not helpful.

It's like a family dinner . If you don't like what's being served, just pass the plate :) , and keep the family happy and dinnertime pleasant. We can tell each other that the food is good but if folks don't want to eat it, no use trying to shove it down their throat.

Everyone can decide for themselves what to taste.

Bulletin boards are great places to share opinions, but not a particularly efficient method to issue decrees.
 
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reading reports

I'm an extreemly low time PP with very little experience and no ratings. I believe reading accident report details from the NTSB and critiques from the AOPA helps me be the best Pilot I can be as I try to learn all that I can. I accept the fact there are pilots who by far have more skill than I and I want to learn from them, even if they crash.

I'm not talking about the stories reported by the press. As we know there is good journalism and there is bad and I've seen that the News Press stories are fraught with errors when compared to the factual reports. I dont stress myself out on statistics, but I drill down to the details on a specific crash and try to understand what went wrong. I think this is very helpful. :confused:
 
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The "other" John Clark

"You must learn from the mistakes of others. You can't possibly live long enough to make them all yourself." - Sam Levenson

Read the reports, keep up the dialog, it's the way we learn. Every time I went to recurrent training at an airline, or Simcom for my Baron, there was a discussion of past accidents. Sometimes to make a specific point, sometimes as a training scenario in a simulator.

An additional thought about discussing accidents. A forum such as this is the right place to have the discussion. Be very careful however if someone sticks a microphone in your face and asks "what happened." Hours after a very ugly crash at my airline I had a news crew in my driveway wanting a "sound bite."
The crash was in Indiana, I was in California. Seems a "friend" had told them that I flew for the company and would have all the answers. I didn't know any more than the news media. Not the time to start pontificating on air safety. I gave them the 800 number for the corporate communications department and closed the door.

John Clark
(The one on the west coast)
RV8 N18U Flying
KSBA
 
Not trying to start a pi**ing contest with anyone, I just want to relay my experience. When I was training for my PP license, my instructor gave me a stack of NTSB reports to read as part of the training. It's now 25 years later, and the words, "continued VFR into IFR conditions", and "inadequate preflight inspection", still ring in my ears. I believe it has made me a better/safer pilot.

Larry Flint said (I'm paraphrasing), "If you don't like my magazine, don't read it." Wouldn't this keep everyone happy?
 
Moderation or Censorship

Yesterday I posted an email on this thread. It suggested that the the initial posting in the thread "OT-Bad, bad,bad month for IFR" was sensationalised information in terms of both headline and content...not unlike sensationalised press reports. My comments were robust but I do not believe they were innaccurate, unfair, or lacking in civility.

My posting has been deleted and I fear that the deletion might have been motivated by censorship rather than by moderation... suggesting that the Moderator does not agree with my views...or has simply misunderstood them.

I believe my observation was legitimate, and in my opinion the interests of aviation, and the interests of the Experimental Category in particular, were uppermost in my mind when I wrote it.

I recommend that my posting be returned to the forum. Not everyone might agree with my view but it was valid comment nontheless.

Let the list decide if I crossed the line in terms of being civil.

Bob Barrow RV7A
(Not concerned about putting my name to anything that I write)
 
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