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humptybump

Well Known Member
This may be a question with no acceptable answer but here goes.

What is the most affordable device or devices that will get me IFR complient GPS and NAV capabilities ?
 
Cheap IFR GPS

Garmin 400 or 400W = about 4-5 K
Garmin 420 or 420W = slightly higher
 
Bendix king

KLN89B will do the job for $1500.

Slightly better is the KLN94 which includes a procedure (proc) button to call up procedures in a few less steps than the 89B. I imagine you could find a used one for a $2k but brand new they are still $4K; in which case the Garmin products would be better.
 
Thanks for the notes. With both the 400W and the KLN89B I'd still need a NAV radio. Are there affordable options there too? I am guessing the GPS + NAV gets close to the GPS/NAV units ?
 
humptybump said:
What is the most affordable device or devices that will get me IFR complient GPS and NAV capabilities ?
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If the question includes approach certified, the most affordable I could find was a used 420W. I opted for a 430W because I wanted the COM plus they're very common and compatible with almost everything.
 
The best option, bang for buck, with some level of ongoing support is a GNS430W.

If you require ADSB at a later date...you have the GPS, it does everything you need, VOR/LOC/ILS and GPS RNAV.

If you intend flying single pilot IFR you need all the help you can get and these are great for SI as well.

IFR ops are not something to nickel and dime.

With the GTN fit outs happening a GNS430W should be found easily enough.
 
Nav add-on

If you want to add NAV to a GPS,

You can get a VAL Avionics INS429 for under $2,000 and it have Nav, LOC, GS, CDI, and Marker beacons. It is certified (If you care)

VAL INS422 on eBay sometime for less than $700

I believe you can even connect your GPS for the CDI function.

Disclaimer: I don't work for VAL or have any connection to them. Heck I don't even know what I'm talking about!

Dkb
 
KLN94

I did my IFR training in planes with the KLN94 and it was a pretty nice set-up. Not quite as flashy and impressive a screen as some Garmin units. Still had colour moving map, that helped with situational awareness.
 
But there is an element left out of the equation.

Define most economical? Do you mean purchase price? Total cost of ownership? Cost per year over the life of the unit?

I would suggest that if you are looking at simple purchase price due to immediate budget concerns, like David mentioned, you may want to rethink things a bit. There isn't a one size fits all answer.

I would suggest while initially more expensive that either a gns430w or a gtn650 would be the best long term investment. If you purchase something that meets the minimal requirements today, how long will support be available and when will you be wanting to replace it with something newer?

Also, which TSO are you looking for this unit to meet? I don't have the numbers memorized or quickly available, but there are other nuances like IFR alternative requirements that vary depending on the TSO your selected unit supports.

Of course there is the obvious. A current production model is going to have a longer life. The 400 series has been around for quite a while. I suspect that Garmin will support the 430w for a little longer. The 650 probably will enjoy a 20+ year life like the 430 has.

Perhaps you should consider spending a little more to get more back? Think of resale value. Which one would assist is selling the aircraft faster?

This is a personal decision and only you can determine what the requirements are and which units makes the most sense for price. All I'm suggesting is that price isn't the only criterion.

Bob
 
I was asking this question because all of my investigation quickly rounds up to $8K or more for the "mature" GNS 430W path and north of $11K for the GTN 650 series - and that is just to get the single piece of equipment. The real cost also needs to include installation materials, data updates, etc.

I keep thinking there would be alternatives but perhaps not.

What I find interesting is "the move from radio NAV to certified GPS NAV" is the stealth fee on pilots. Where as the bulk of the reoccurring costs of radio NAV fell to airports and the FAA, certified GPS NAV falls to the airplane owner and pilot.

Thanks for all of your input. I guess I'll just keep flying VFR.
 
Have Been Looking Too

Great subject. I aml getting ready to start my RV9A build with all QB.
So this subject will come into play much sooner than going slow build.
I too am a VFR pilot but plan to build an IFR panel as I plan to get
my IFR rating.
What I am having trouble with is how do you go about deciding on
what the options would be? Example...using an AFS 5000 with the 430?
So instead of watching the 430 you watch the AFS screen.
So...how do you know just what you need to match and mate to have an
IFR rated panel?
If someone could just direct me to what I need to be reading or watching I
would be most appreciative.

Bert:)
 
Bert, enjoy the build. The good news is you have some time before you need to make final decisions.

In my case, I am already instrument rated and flying. I fear that spending 1/3rd or more of the value of my airplane on a panel to get IFR just is no in the cards.
 
humptybump said:
The real cost also needs to include installation materials, data updates, etc.

I keep thinking there would be alternatives but perhaps not.

What I find interesting is "the move from radio NAV to certified GPS NAV" is the stealth fee on pilots. Where as the bulk of the reoccurring costs of radio NAV fell to airports and the FAA, certified GPS NAV falls to the airplane owner and pilot.

Thanks for all of your input. I guess I'll just keep flying VFR.
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Unfortunately, any certified IFR device has a maintenance fee associated with data updates. This is also the reason what I mentioned total cost of ownership and not just hardware purchase price. But also consider that there is also currency issues for the pilot as well. Being IFR current from both an aircraft and pilot perspective has a cost. In my opinion, well worth the expense. But I also understand how others would have a different opinion.
 
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Glen,

I have recently been through a screen blacking out problem with my 430. Just another point to consider is that Garmin charges a flat $800 fee plus freight for any repair on these units. :mad: Oh, and they removed the repair option from avionics shops I believe.
 
rleffler said:
any certified IFR device has a maintenance fee associated with data updates. Being IFR current from both an aircraft and pilot perspective has a cost.
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Both valid statements. For me, the "buy in" to get the plane IFR equipped and them maintaining that certification is the big part. The on-going pilot training is mostly folded into the cost of flying.
 
The Garmin GNC 300 xl is an approach certified GPS nav/com. When I bought mine new 10 or so years ago they were $3500.00. I hear they are $2600 at JA Air all day long.

Works great as long as you learn the buttonology. I use a good checklist to set up for the approach to address the buttonology issues. Couples to my Altrak auto pilot with GPS approaches and enroutes, has a small, semi worthless, moving map. Good radio.

Couple this with a tablet using Anywhere map or similar and you have a very complete IFR, moving map, geo referenced approach plate and chart capable cockpit for way less than $5000.00.

Add a good KX155 (the industry standard nav/comm for years) for VOR and ILS for probably the cheapest IFR complete, dual nav/comm capability. You'll also need a CDI and annunciator. Far from state of art, but very reliable, inexpensive and capable with good redundancy.
 
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IFR but maybe not GPS...

*sigh* :(
I guess for now, it looks like getting an IFR GPS airplane is still pretty costly.

BUT

We can still have an IFR plane, and maybe an IFR enroute/approach GPS for a reasonable price.

A VAL INS429 all-in-one or a Nav/CDI combination is still under $2000 and Certified. I had a pair of MC-60 CDI for under $500 each (which I really liked) and used a NAV like the VAL 2000 with GS built in.

So:
==========================
VAL 2000 Com 1 -$1300
VAL 2000 Com 2 - $1300
VAL 2000 Nav - 1 - $1000
MC-60 CDI - $500
KLN89b - $1000 or KLN-94 - $2000
Transponder - ?

(Note: Can I wire the KLN radios to the flight director in the EFIS as well as the external CDI?)

Dkb
 
I had been hoping that with the new garmin 650/750 coming out that the 430s would start showing up more on ebay and prices would go down. Hasn't been the case, actually I think the prices on used 430s may have gone up a notch.
 
miyu1975 said:
I had been hoping that with the new garmin 650/750 coming out that the 430s would start showing up more on ebay and prices would go down. Hasn't been the case, actually I think the prices on used 430s may have gone up a notch.
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Be careful if you're shopping on ebay for a used 430W. I was and saw at least half were scams. Same photo used again, notes on bottom to call now to get it for $2500 or a "0" feedback seller registered in Turkey. I also saw users with feedback that was less than 30 days old and all from $0.99 purchases from China. I reported about 20 in two month's time as possible fraudlent to ebay and they took them all down in a day or so. For a reference, the one I got was $6420 from Pacific Coast Avionics (an advertiser on VAF) in a buy it now bid and is in very good condition as checked out by our local avionics shop. Included rack, new antenna, all manuals and connectors. I called Garmin with the serial number before I purchased and they were able to confirm the history of the unit. Took about 2 months to get one I wanted.
 
Don't forget about Wentworth for avionics also. The got some good stuff on the worlds largest auction site right now and they are good, honest people to do business with.
 
The 430/430W series has been a very very popular unit in the certified world. I expect used prices to stay high for many years due to demand for those units by those guys.

$5.5-6.5k is nothing to those certified folks needing a replacement vs installing a new model. Total cost for a new model installed for the certified folks can be 2-3 times or more the cost to us experimental guys.
 
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I have solved my dilemma ...

rv8_panel-joke.jpg
 
My two cents: There are, crudely, 3 levels of ifr capability you can go for:

1. WAAS certified (really, it means the waas TSO, I think it's C-145 or 146 something) which leaves you with a choice of a 4xxW or a new GTN xxxW. This gives you precision (LPV) gps approaches, no weird alternate requirements. These receivers interface to all the popular EFIS units (to avoid buying a $2K CDI).

2. Non-Waas units (300 XL, KLN units). These offer only non-precision approaches but very useable for enroute, and will get you in as long as the ceiling isn't too low. FAA (AIM) says you need to carry a VOR on board as backup, limits on alternate requirements. Some of these units will require you to buy/build external annunciator/switches.

3. Hand held gps on the panel, with VOR/ILS receiver. No Gps approach capability. Enroute, the "Center, how about a vector on, say, 159 degrees direct to xyz" (wink, wink) seems to work about 90% of the time in my area. There are more and more airports whose only IFR approaches are gps, but there are still lots with VOR/ILS approaches. Take a look at where you fly.

Something to watch: GRT has promised a new GPS certified receiver in the New Year (in fact, 2 units, one LPV and one non-precision). They have not said how you will do, nor how much it will cost, for the database updates. But if nothing else they may drive the cost of a Garmin down a bit.
 
Hmmmm... I don't know.

I have seen a TON of very nice C-172 and Pipe Cherokees with older avionics because the new cost was almost the price of the plane!

I'm not a marketing guy, but I'd bet if someone came up with a IFR GPS that was not 30% the price of a Skyhawk, I'd bet there would be a pretty good run. The technology is here, just not the will.

Maybe if we can talk Van into going into the Avionics business... :eek:


Brantel said:
$5.5-6.5k is nothing to those certified folks needing a replacement vs installing a new model. Total cost for a new model installed for the certified folks can be 2-3 times or more the cost to us experimental guys.
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Consider ADS-B Compliance

It is reasonable to assume that the 2020 requirements for the move to ADS-B "in" & "out" system is not going away and that is only seven years and change from now you might consider installing electrics that comfort to that need as well. Might save a bunch of money and down time in the long run. Good luck.
 
Bill Phillips said:
It is reasonable to assume that the 2020 requirements for the move to ADS-B "in" & "out" system is not going away and that is only seven years and change from now you might consider installing electrics that comfort to that need as well. Might save a bunch of money and down time in the long run. Good luck.
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January 1, 2020, ADS-B IN is not required. Only the OUT.

I am one of many that if I have to pay for the OUT, I would also like to have the IN.
 
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