Bryan Wood

Bryan Wood

Well Known Member
Saturday I went for a ride in the RV and flew just outside of the China MOA near Chico CA enroute to Klamath Falls Oregon. Cruising along with the autopilot on at 10,500' and taking notes on fuel burns for future endurance flying my head was down for what seemed like just a few seconds. When I looked up and did a scan of the sky I couldn't believe what I saw a few miles off of my right wing. There was a streak of what looked like exhaust or a smoke trail starting from the ground and arcing up into the cirrus at around 20K'. It looked like a missile had been launched while my head was down and I missed it. From the chart though this makes no sense because the MOA includes airspace from 3000agl to 17,999 feet. Have any of you seen anything like this before? I had my video camera with me and turned it on and shot some footage of the smoke trail. When I get some time I'll load it onto the computer and post it so everybody can see what I'm talking about. I'm very curious what this was and how it appeared so quickly. Maybe it was a jet going vertical??? I guess it is prudent to talk to the controlling agency before busting thru these things.

Best,
 
There's all sorts of strange happenings in the skys above the dessert where I live as well...

Yes, definately give a call to the controlling agencies and see if it's active before going through. And don't be surprised if you feel a sonic boom every now and again (although they're probably better about that around Chico).
 
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Bryan,

What ever you saw, it wouldn't be related to the MOA. Regardless of vertical boundaries, MOA's are for non-firing type of activities. If the military is firing anything inflight or into the air from the ground, the airspace would either be a restricted area onshore or a warning area off shore.
 
Missle or 600HP RV-10?

That is possible but if you entered the MOA (which you can if VFR) they probably would not have fired the missle or whatever you saw. I had an F-16 driver tell me that anytime a plane cruises through the MOA's around Utah they have to stop what they are doing and the go up above and circle until you get through it and the MOA is clear again. Usually if they are going to fire missles though seems like they would do it in restricted or TFR airspace.

Are you sure it wasn't a 600 HP V-8 powered RV-10 with it's smoke on?
 
What makes everyone think it's a missile? An F-22, for example, going straight up...supersonic like....covers a whole lot of ground in not a whole lot of time.

I don't know of any live munitions that are ever used in MOA's. They're designed for training, formation practice, dogfighting etc. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.
 
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jcoloccia said:
What makes everyone think it's a missile? An F-22, for example, going straight up...supersonic like....covers a whole lot of ground in not a whole lot of time.

I don't know of any live munitions that are ever used in MOA's. They're designed for training, formation practice, dogfighting etc. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.
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This is my understanding as well. As for shutting down an MOA when someone (civillian) enters, I have a hard time with that one. Some of these MOAs are massive and could take 30 minutes for a light plane to pass through.

As for the military aircraft using the MOAs (if has the onboard radar), can they not keep an eye on us little people? I would think any fighter would almost always have their radar on looking for each other and others.
 
We Try..., but watch out!

I use MOAs almost everyday in my military ride, and on weekend's I fly thru them at times in my 'own' ride. But here are a few points to ponder next time you chose to drive thru them unannounced and unafraid:

-Some military jets do have radar, but not all. The typical radar 'sees' 60 degrees left and right of center flight as well as 30 degree up and down (OK, now I have to kill you!) So they are effective looking in front of the flight path only. Unfortunatley, while in MOAs we are NEVER straight and level, in fact moving literaly, in my present case, from 9,500' to 23,000' and back constantly at speeds up to supersonic and climb and dive rates of 35,000' feet per minute. In other words if you, or I, am in our trusty RVs, we could still have a head on closure rate of 600+ mph...not much time to be seen on a fleeting radar screen.
-MOAs do not get 'shut down' when a VFR traffic flies thru. ATC workload permitting, the controller advices us where the VFR traffic is (hope your Mode A/C is accurate???) and we then place a floor or ceiling on that moving target...but remember, we have 'student pilots' /wingman too who probably have a lot less experience in this stuff than you do! You willing to trust your life on them?
-While in the MOA we are generally NOT ALONE. If there is one military jet you see, there is usually another or three or 10 depending on that mission or exercise. Which means that the radars are being used to find those other 'bandits', not set to find/detect Mode C 1200 squawks. If we did set our electronic ID systems for 1200 idents they would lite up like Christmas trees and make finding the bogey, which is what we are training for, able to sneak in the clutter! So while by chance we may find an 'unkown rider' it would be generally unintentional and certainly not the 'briefed objective' of the mission.
-How many of us civilian fliers don't even know if our transponders work well, or for that matter have the Mode C on above 10,000 and funtioning accurately with the right altimeter setting? I can't count how many times I've had a MOA civvie blow thru who was not squawking or talking! And by the way, if you are TCAS equipped, don't get a false sense of security in a MOA, ATC usually only allows the lead military jet to squawk meaning all the other players are on transponder standby or off.
-Many military aircraft are now also TCAS equipped. Just this last Friday I attemtped to ID and avoid another military aircraft (pre-briefed objective) using TCAS only. We found that TCAS gives 'trend info' on tracks and does not work too good on maneuvering targets, so more of a heads up device than accurate pointer. In other words very poor collision avoidance help on a maneuvering target, or if we are maneuvering.

In conclusion, we as general aviation pilots have the 'freedom' to buz thru any MOA we'd like. I've evern heard some guys/pilots boast about how it is THEIR RIGHT and us military pilots are getting paid off of their tax dollars..."so better stay out of my way...." OK, true, but when you get skewwered by a fast mover who probably never even saw you, you're still going to the 'this is what I did dumb' side of heaven! Just three months ago I was RVing up to Kansas and didn't notice I was flying thru a MOA until I came beak to beak with a spinning T-37! I immediately checked my sectional, noted the MOA altitude and descended thinking it isn't worth the risk. Yes, ATC will tell you, if you are talking to them, whether the MOA is active, but work load depending, they may not tell YOU or US that you are even there. Remember, traffic alerts between IFR and VFR aircraft is workload permitting, and as you know, you will generally NOT go thru an active MOA if you are on an IFR flightplan. They don't think its a good idea!:rolleyes: You decide what your pink body, or more importantly, what your passengers lifes are worth, and do a little Operational Risk Management and decide what is right for them! It is a risk and having seen it from both sides, a pretty RISKY RISK.

Good luck, and tailwinds always!

Jj
Building RV-4 Fastback
RV-6
YAK 50
T-37, T-38, F-4, OV-10, F-117
N Texas
 
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Jetj01 said:
....Just three months ago I was RVing up to Kansas and didn't notice I was flying thru a MOA until I came beak to beak with a spinning T-37! ....
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An RV and a T-37 - now that might be a pretty interesting "fight"! ;)

Jj - So your radar systems don't recognize basic (primary) reflections?? I didn't think the bad guys would have their transponders on, or even have them necessarily.

Thanks for the insight on the MOAs. I'll generally skirt them if I can and it doesn't mean a lot of diversion time. But the truth be told, on the rare occasion I find myself in a MOA, I keep an eye out just for the possibility of seeing some good jet action. I know, I know - everyone else save the punitive comments.
 
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10,000 ft confusion

Jetj01 said:
...............................
-How many of us civilian fliers don't even know if our transponders work well, or for that matter have the Mode C on above 10,000 and funtioning accurately with the right altimeter setting?
..........
Jj
Building RV-4 Fastback
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Jj ... if I remember my electronics correctly... the Mode C does not have any altimeter settings involved.
It always responds using a 29.92 setting.

Any correction for local atmospheric pressure is done at the ATC facility, so any ATC warnings to military aircraft in the MOA will always have the correct altitude reported, even if the civilian has an incorrect setting in his altimeter Kollsman window.

This is true to 18,000 ft. Does the military do something different to get the 10,000 ft. altitude you mention above??

This is also why the 2 year static/mode C check is important, even for VFR fliers...

gil in Tucson
 
Good but unfortunately minor help in dire situation

Jj - So your radar systems don't recognize basic (primary) reflections?? I didn't think the bad guys would have their transponders on, or even have them necessarily.

Jj ... if I remember my electronics correctly... the Mode C does not have any altimeter settings involved.
It always responds using a 29.92 setting.

Both good points Gents, allow me to clarify:

Most of us think of radar from the good old days...point lots of trons, and get a raw return. Modern radars have become much more effective and, in a very complex way, simpler. In modern air to air radars the pilot/operator is no longer 'seeing' a primary return. In fact the radar computer is filtering, based on settings made by the pilot/squadron weapons, manufacturer etc anything out that it does not want to recognize as a threat, contact or air interceptor type target. It knows these days what the threat is supposed to look like and searches for it. Example would be the computer will filter anything out that WAS going 400 knots but suddenly drops to 10 knots, such as chaff, tin foil thrown out by a defender to spoof a rader. Used to be quite effective in the old days (20 years ago) but now the modern radar goes "disregard chaff, there he is!" Or for that matter someone 'beaming' or 'notching' a radar, making there forward velocity appear to disappear...used to be very effective, now GOTCHA and missile on the way! My point is, we can 'seach and sort' for the threat we are looking for without getting distracted with the slow mover below the MOA or the airliner above it. Kinda partially explains how that Cessna made it into Moscow years back don't it!

BTW, the prudent enemy aircraft DOES squawk (there are several more militarily important codes so his own brothers don't fraticide his butt and while we don't recognize them FRIEND OR FOE, we do see them and analyze them. And yes, if we have radar sorted for a particular threat, we will see computer filtered raw data still but generally not what we are looking for in the MOA.

You know the reason why we are in the MOA is because theoretically we can maneuver in this limited airspace with the knowledge that a smart civilian pilot knows better than to be mixing it up there but rather, if the MOA is active, flying around or under or over it. I know that is what I'd do!

As far as the altimeter settings go, depends if you have a 'blind encoder' or encoding altimeter but suffice to say a couple hundred feet between friends is insignificant when you realize the average fast mover traveling at .9 MACH with just a 1 degree pitch change begins a climb or descent of 900 fpm...unless we're on an instrument ride flying steep turns, holding altitude is not on the menu. That's even more than a F1 Rocket climbs! ;)

In around 1988 a 4 X ship of F-4s were flying in a designated IR low level route from my home base. While flying, # 2 felt, then thought he had hit a large bird and could observe some damage on his left wing leading edge, so aborted the route, climbing and slowing from 540 KGS at 300' AGL, and flew home. Watching the on board video when we got on the ground we observed a very quick flash and slowed the tape down and saw what appeared to be a Cessna disappearing by the left wingtip. Ground investigation later that day found a tail-less Cessna 150 on the desert floor with dead pilot aboard...probably never knew what hit him. The Rhino driver certainly had not seen him. At that speed and altitude you are pretty much caring about what is 5 miles ahead, anything closer is a blur, but vital training for avoiding surface to air missile threats. Truly regrettable accident but the reality of modern air combat training.

Trust me when I say that EVERY mission we fly in the USAF is began with a review of the training rules and knock it off rules which are covered every ride. EVERY SORTIE! And every discussion mentions the threat of "unbriefed and unscheduled" aircraft in the area and what we will do to mitigate the threat. I, like you, have no interest in a midair because there is a pretty good chance I won't see my wife that night either, so we must ALL endeavor to persever in this high threat area, because that is what it is, high threat. The T-38 aint near as tough as the F-4!

Lastly, MOST military aircraft flying in Texas is of the trainer variety, like I am flying now, be it a T-38, T-37, T-6 etc, literally hundreds of them being flown by guys and gals with less than 100 hours of flying time and some with very limited english language skills. All they want to do is pass the ride and get their wings and go back to their countries. We call the phenomena 'task saturation' and at times it is all they can do to get to and from the MOA in a satisfactory manner. Most fliers in our MOAs are NOT old farts like me and Smokey et al (he IS BTW older than me ;) ) Again, a little ORM goes a long way...use it, fly it, live to fly another day!

Tailwinds!

Jj

P.S. If ANYONE has any interest, we could all meet up here in N. Texas, F14 airstrip, where we have a fun field and $2.99 gas and talk about this stuff and do some RVing...always open for a day with fun flying bro's!

Building RV-4 Fastback
RV-6
YAK 50
Military stuff
N. Texas
 
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Jetj01 said:
literally hundreds of them being flown by guys and gals with less than 100 hours of flying time and some with very limited english language skills. All they want to do is pass the ride and get their wings and go back to their countries. We call the phenomena 'task saturation' and at times it is all they an do to get to and from the MOA in a satisfactory manner.
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Point illustration... one of my old classmates in a -38!

WARNING: Lots of cursing! Not suitable for kids or work.


 
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How do we pilots, both civilian and military, reconcile the the dichotomy between what the miltary says at airspace hearings versus what is said at local safety presentations?

At the hearings for proposed new or enlarged MOAs the statement is made that the MOAs are "not closed to civlian traffic and are joint use areas".

Once the MOAs are in effect the safety briefers tell the civilian pilots that while "yes the areas are technically open to civilian traffic, you would be very foolish to fly through them as well as being wasteful of military resources due to disruptions of training.

I agrree that flying in MOAs can be hazardous to everyone's health but what is the practical choice given the vast areas they cover?

Stan Blanton
 
Very informative and helpful. I will adjust my flying with MOAs accordingly.

That video (T-38 audio) was excellent!! My uncle used to tell a story about training Norwegians in T-6's. Seems that once while approaching to land the student hadn't completed his GUMP check. The instructor started screaming GUMP, GUMP! So the student unstrapped and jumped.
 
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Here's the video of what I saw, or what I never saw. It is very hard to see the streak in the video until it is higher in altitude, but it started at or very near the ground. The camera was already set up by being plugged into the headset jack for aux mike in and it simply needed turning on and aiming. As you can see I was just cruising along listening to my Satellite radio.

For the military guys who are used to seeing stuff like this, is this from an airplane?
(corrected link)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdtOAGB_B-w

Thanks,
 
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military training routes

Ever pay much attention to crossing through any of the military training routes marked on the sectionals? They dont pop out at you on the sectional as much as the MOAs, but interesting things may be present within them. My buddy witnessed two fighter jets along the training route. They were throttled way back and........escorting a cruise missle. Presumably unarmed. A real attention getter.

erich weaver
 
Bryan,

Not getting anything from your link. It goes to youtube, but shows no video, just this: This video is a duplicate of a previously uploaded video
 
Looks more like a vapor trail from a jet than a smoke trail from a missle.

I'm bring my video camera with me from now on!
 
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Vapor Trails do not go down through the horizon to the ground like this one does. It is hard to see on the video but it sure does look like something went from the ground up. I was begining to worry that the homeland defense or the NSA or what every they are calling them self these days took your video away from you with the bad posts..
 
It doesn't show up on the video very well, but this appeared to start very near the ground. Again, I was at 10,500' and as you can see it goes way above that. The crazy thing was how quickly it appeared. I'm still disappointed that I missed what made the trail.
 
smokey sam?

Jj or other fighter types,

Any smokey SAMs capable of 10,500'+? The ones we get shot at us don't go near that high, but then again, they don't need to for our purposes.

Or maybe a rocket hobbyist, totally unrelated to the MOA?
 
OK - I'm going to take some flak for this one, mainly because I wasn't there, and Bryan was. Having said that, looking at the video, I believe what we are seeing is nothing more than a high altitude jet contrail and it's shadow. I've seen this countless times before where a contrail will shoot a perfect shaft of a shadow all the way to the ground. This would explain why the first part of the "contrail" is dark and only the high, parallel-to-the-earth part is white. The first part is perfectly straight, like a shadow. Those that have seen contrails from missiles/rockets know that they are not that straight. Just my 2 cents worth. Attached photo is perfect example of what I'm talking about.
contrail2fq5.jpg
or this
contrailshadowna1.jpg
 
I would have to say that there's no way that's a smoky sam. It would be able to take a plane out if it was carrying that much fuel. From the video, it looks like the sun angle might have created a bit of an optical illusion. Did the smoke trail look darker below the horizon? Could it just be the shadow of contrail/smoke trail/fuel dump at a higher altitude making it just appear to start from ground level? I've flown out there in that MOA before, and there is no emitter range or threat simulators anywhere around there. If it was a rocket, maybe it was some "astronaut farmer"!! On a side note, we have modified the 20mm cannon on the Eagle recently. It will now be able to shoot paintballs at all MOA intruders, so watch out!! Please don't take me seriously.
 
that shadow story shure does sound good, but they could be govt plants trying to convince use it did not happen :)
 
tobinbasford said:
OK - I'm going to take some flak for this one, mainly because I wasn't there, and Bryan was.
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Tobin, your explaination sounds good to me. Frankly I don't know what I saw, or as written didn't see. The odd part is that I scanned the sky before looking down to write and when I looked and and scanned the sky again I noticed it. When the bride finishes watching American Idol we'll have to give it another look on the tv with more resolution and see if what your saying looks right.
 
Just as a data point, I've seen planes move from one end of the sky to another in a very short amount of time....VERY short. There are some fast birds up there.
 
Brian130 said:
Any smokey SAMs capable of 10,500'+? The ones we get shot at us don't go near that high, but then again, they don't need to for our purposes.
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Agreed. Had lots of "smokey SAMs" shot at me in the -53, and I'd be surprised if they made 1000AGL, much less 10,000+.
 
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