WOW. So my assumption is that the PA32R flew over the PA11 and the PA11's prop busted the tire on the 32's landing gear?! I think I'd be buying a lottery ticket if I were those guys!!! :eek:
 
Wow - very lucky indeed. From the description it sounds like a prop-tire contact?
 
I was riding sweep in a 4 ship half mile trail formation last year. We were at 90 kts and 1800 msl. Xpndrs on standby and all lights on. We just passed Ripon when 2 Tri-Pacers flying side-by-side coming from the southeast swung between #3 and myself. Fortunately their lights were on and I saw them coming. I'm thinking to myself, "Those guys don't see us and are going to jump in line." In reality I probably said, "WTF are those @$$%^&*s doing?" I dropped 20 deg flaps and slowed a little more to let the TPs move on ahead.

The Ripon arrival point can be a dangerous place. There are airplanes coming from 359 directions with their pilots intent on driving to N43deg50.29', W88deg50.68' as directed by their gps, some coupled to an autopilot. I'm knowing there are more than a few pilots not looking out the window.

It's the high speed, higher alt, less traffic approach for this RV from now on.
 
Another issue with the arrival procedures (for both SnF and Osh) is that there are plenty of antiques which cannot fly 90 knots. I've e-mailed both management groups asking for a 70 mph arrival procedure for Cubs, Champs, Piets and the like. Those airplanes have a hard time meshing with the "normal" 90 knot arrival traffic. It wouldn't be a surprise if this was a factor in last week's "minor" midair.

Besides, one day I'll be taking the Champ (currently a project in my basement) to Oshkosh, and don't need anyone running over me while I'm blazing along at 85 mph...
 
Yay, slow line!

Yep, we had to check up for a gaggle of Champs last year close to the airport, not in single file, floating all over the freakin place like blimps.

This year, our line of 6 airplanes had to check up and slow uncomfortably as we approached the downwind for 27 because of an idiot Commanche driver ahead of us who kept slowing down despite ATC pleas -- the tower finally said "Speed UP" and he dropped his gear and slowed another 5 knots. Our nice 1/2 mile spacing got pretty tight toward the end. And we were in Light-Sport airplanes!! :mad:
 
Steve said:
.........It's the high speed, higher alt, less traffic approach for this RV from now on.
Click to expand...

I could be wrong, but I thought the OSH NOTAM stated that if an aircraft was capable of flying at 90 kt. then it had to use the low/slow arrival.

I stand by to be corrected.

Did anyone fly the fast arrival procedure in an RV?? If so, were you "chastized" by ATC?
 
Interesting that the two pilots thought they were in different locations but were really in the same location. It could be just bad memory from having been in an incident.

According to a verbal statement taken from the pilot of the Piper PA-32R-301, ... Approximately two miles east of Ripon he heard a soft ?thud.?

According to a verbal statement taken from the pilot of the Piper PA-11, he was just east of FISK

Ripon to Fisk is 10 nm according to the chart.
 
PCHunt said:
I could be wrong, but I thought the OSH NOTAM stated that if an aircraft was capable of flying at 90 kt. then it had to use the low/slow arrival.

I stand by to be corrected.

Did anyone fly the fast arrival procedure in an RV?? If so, were you "chastized" by ATC?
Click to expand...

Sadly, you're correct.

I had missed that line in the NOTAM, and used the high arrival in my RV. I was not chastised by ATC, and felt that it was much safer and easier than the low pattern.

I have arrived in different aircraft, using the high pattern, the low pattern, and even the ultralight arrival (in the AirCam). By far the scariest is the low pattern, which is flying formation with 200 people you've never met in dissimilar aircraft.

Now I'm conflicted about the best arrival. Any RV can safely maintain 70 knots for a time, but many of us have temp issues with extended slow flight (like RIPON to FISK) in the summer. I might have to placard my airplane limiting speed below 95 knots to 5 minutes or less with OAT above 70 degrees.

Of course, that means I'll have to use the high pattern. Shucks.
 
snip...I might have to placard my airplane limiting speed below 95 knots to 5 minutes or less with OAT above 70 degrees...snip
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Danny King's mixture cable melted and froze in position after flying the low approach two years ago (200hp fuel injected RV-8) after about 15 minutes of 90kts somewhere around Fisk. Spent the first day of OSH repairing it.

We flew the high approach this year and *think* we didn't upset anyone - possibly because when we arrived we pretty much had the pattern to ourselves.

My .02 (as Stein says)
 
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We were arriving at Fisk right about the time on Tues. evening when the airport closed because of the Jack Roush crash. Fortunately we were monitoring Fisk from 90nm out and could hear things piling up there, so we diverted to Fondulac. To be honest I was quite amazed with amount of chatter on the radio which showed the utter unpreparedness of some of these guys flying into Oshkosh. One example of a few conversations I heard was the controllers suggested that everyone divert to one of the outlying airports, and one guy asked which direction Fondulac was and what the frequency there was. Didn't have a clue how to get there.

As Oshkosh has evolved I really do believe they need to put some thought into revising the arrivals. All it takes is one guy in a J-3 who can't maintain 70 kts let alone 90 kts. to cause a logjam behind them, and that in itself is a big safety issue.
 
The high pattern/ low pattern issue is one that comes up often. On one hand, the Notam clearly spells out that the high pattern is for those airplanes who cannot safely maintain 90 kts, not for those who don't feel like it. Others have posted on this thread that they've flown the high pattern in an RV and gotten away with it. I've never flown the high pattern myself, but I have heard pilots being chastised and told to get down to the low pattern. You might get away with it, but you need to be prepared to fly the low pattern.

Another consideration- in the high pattern, at some point you are going to have to go down and slow down to get down to the 1800 foot pattern. In a low wing airplane like an RV, this is a perfect setup to exactly the type of midair that started this thread.
 
In the interest of safety, the EAA should create a putt-putt pattern for the Cubs, Champs, Light Sport, etc for those aircraft struggling to to make 90 kts.
 
If you could reasonably exceed an ops limit (oil Temp) by flying the low pattern, you should fly the high pattern. I did this year(2ship of RV8s) ATC didnt say a thing.
 
High pattern still must descend to 1800

Last year our flight of three had two planes fly over us in the high pattern, a Bonanza and a Piper. They had to descend to 1800 just ahead of us and we had to follow them in to 27. Needless to say, they must not have read the NOTAM as the lead Bonanza went way north of the gravel pit and way out over the lake, which we had to follow. I still would like to ask someone at the FAA if I should have followed the correct pattern when they deviated.

If your in an RV in the high pattern you just add to the 2300 volume which will have to drop into the low pattern eventually. RV's flying the high pattern may explain why the Fisk controllers twice this year (I left and returned) directed me to descend to 1800 after passing them even though I was at 1800 doing 90 kts.

I also witnessed pilots arriving who did not read the NOTAM this year. When we arrived on Thursday after the air show at least 3 aircrafts ahead of us radioed FISK to ask for arrival frequencies (in the NOTAM) or other info.
 
Putt-putt pattern

Steve said:
In the interest of safety, the EAA should create a putt-putt pattern for the Cubs, Champs, Light Sport, etc for those aircraft struggling to to make 90 kts.
Click to expand...
Great idea, Steve! I have not studied the current situation, so I have no idea if it is workable, but it sounds good.

Haven't yet flown into KOSH during the show, but I sure hope to one day. As it stands, I would plan to be an "early bird" - it's really quiet in the morning and I suspect a lot safer.
 
I agree - I hope that someday they can put in a slow-speed pattern for the planes that can't even get to 90 knots at full power in a dive (I used to own some of those!). And Mickey, you're right about finding slow times to go in - I never drive at rush hour if I can avoid it - why hit the peak at Oshkosh? Smart planning can make life simpler....

You can rationalize all sorts of reasons to use the "high road", but the comments to the NOTAM in the ATC section of the OSH web site are pretty clear on what "Aircraft who cannot maintain 90 knots" means. Sure, the NOTAM text itself is regulatory, not the comments, so they are not going to bust anyone - but as has been pointed out, they DO have to reintegrate the two streams after FISK, so you're just making the controller's task tougher, which decreases the safety margin for everyone. And as also been pointed out, there are enough yahoos who don't even know about the NOTAM already doing that for all of us....

I guess we can put the debate on hold for another year now....;)

Paul
 
Jumping in front of the line is the problem....

This was our first time flying to Oshkosh flying in our RV-9A. Made it past Ripon and we were well on our way over the railroad tracks to Fisk. Controllers informed any additional traffic who had not yet passed Ripon to do the holding pattern over Green lake. We were doing about 80 to 90kts initially over the railroad tracks following the plane in front of us. Then some other plane comes in from the side and cuts in front of us. I saw similar things happening ahead of the other planes as well. Result? We had to slow down as the line got longer and had to maintain our spacing. The line hit almost 50kts at one time.... not a pleasant feeling.

Some pilots are so eager to make it to Oshkosh that they are willing to jump in front of the line (instead of doing a hold pattern at Green lake) and in so doing potentially putting other people at risk. This is where I wish that there would be more ground spotters with binoculars that could identify offenders, with maybe a subsequent punishment of 10 lashings with a wet noodle after landing on the blue dot at KOSH :)

I have not read the details of the accident, but was it really an upper/lower route conflict issue, or was one plane cutting off the other at the 1800 ft. route?

From my observation/experience at Oshkosh, it is not the limited performance of the airplanes that are the issue for maintaining 90 kts, but rather the actions of a few pilots behind the stick/yoke. If more people were to take the 2300 ft route I believe the same issues would be observed there as well.
 
Lycosaurus said:
... We had to slow down as the line got longer and had to maintain our spacing. The line hit almost 50kts at one time.... not a pleasant feeling...
Click to expand...

The time to exit the line of airplanes in the arrival procedure is when you start feeling uncomfortable.

My personal minimums are that I won't accept crowded spacing with slow speeds. Also, I will not join a holding procedure for Osh or SnF. Too dangerous, IMO. Been there, done that, learned my lesson. Now, I target off-peak times and will land elsewhere or set-up my own holding procedure 20 miles away if there is a delay.

Being crowded into airspace with dissimilar aircraft and pilots of differing abilities is no place for me.
 
Planes are just too different

This year my dad and i flew into "The Big One" in our -7. We entered Ripon with no one in front of us. 3 miles down the tracks a hard to see, slow flying, pre WW2 trainer biplane appeared in front of us doing 75kts. We turned out on our way back to Ripon and noticed no one in line except a 9A. Perfect! We hop in line behind him and head on our way. Well... he gets the Fisk Ave transition while we get the tracks transition for 27. Ok, except there is Mr. hard to see again doing 70kts this time... And S turns! ATC made him do a 270 degree turn to land 18 to give us some room. I like the putt putt route idea.
 
At the risk of a little more thread creep, can someone tell a newbie (me) when the slow times are? I've only been to Oshkosh once--in 1999--in my RV-3. I was very uncomfortable and experienced the same slow-flight scenario folks describe in this thread.

Now, I've got a Midget Mustang. It does not do slow flight well AT ALL. Visibility straight ahead in level flight is not great and it's absolutely terrible in slow flight. The clean stall is 70mph.

I'll be there at opening bell if that's what it takes!

Thanks in advance for any advice.
 
The busiest days for flying in are Sunday (day before opening) and Monday. It tapers off steadily after that. Even on those days, it doesn't really start to get busy until around 9AM. If you can plan your trip to spend the night at an airport close to Oshkosh and be airborne early and hit Fisk early (say, 7AM) you should sail right in.

I agree with others that a putt-putt pattern is a good idea. But, until they do, we need to make the best with what we currently have.
 
sprucemoose said:
If you can plan your trip to spend the night at an airport close to Oshkosh and be airborne early and hit Fisk early (say, 7AM) you should sail right in.
Click to expand...

Good call... I flew in Tuesday morning and was over Ripon at around 0720 and it was really quiet, I was all alone headed up the railroad tracks. Well, there was my brother in the back seat, but we were pretty compatible on our speeds...
 
LOL;)
Love it:D

jbDC9 said:
Good call... I flew in Tuesday morning and was over Ripon at around 0720 and it was really quiet, I was all alone headed up the railroad tracks. Well, there was my brother in the back seat, but we were pretty compatible on our speeds...
Click to expand...
 
I listened to LIVE ATC to get a feeling of how the radio traffic was at OSH. Early morning was the slowest by far. I learned real quick after 12 noon, it is busy as all get out and ATC are working there butts off.

I am confident of my ablitiles and will know the NOTAM, but we all know there are alot of marginal pilots out there and I want as much space as I can between me and the marginal pilot. I plan on flying in next year and will definately get there early. Spend the night about 100 miles away and leave about 6 am.

I will be flying a 172 and I will not have to worry about slow flight. I will be almost wide open at 90 knots.:D
 
Come to MCW the night before, they give a good fuel discount, we have a hotel with a bar, shuttle, and a good airport rate 1 mile away or you can camp at my hangar if you like...

Get up early and be in the air a little before 6 am over the lake moments after 7 am, and I have flown up the arrival without seeing another plane....

I went up Sunday around noon this year. It was not open when I left but they had said they would have an announcement so I anticipated it and that was a good strategy.....

I flew the Rocket and I was planning on the low arrival, 90 kts is very doable in the Rocket, but there was a flurry of cubs and champs over the lake. At 90 kts with about flaps 20, I can see fine, but at 75 kts behind a Cub, I can see nothing, so I climbed up and did the high route....

No problems, they made a hole for me by sending a few extra to runway 27 and told me to descend to 1800, for the left base for 36 roll to the end, left turn to parking. I never stopped rolling. Absolutely painless arrival. Nothing spooky at all.

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
 
Ditto Doug's comments. I wasn't far behind him after they opened the airport to showplanes and warbirds. As I approached Ripon, prepared for a whole flood of planes that had been waiting for the field to open, my head was on a swivel. However, as I turned to follow the railroad tracks NE, I only saw a gaggle of slow high-wingers bobbing up and down.

By the time I reached Fisk, they had sent the bobbers to 27 and directed me to 36. The only scary point for me was when they asked me to rock my wings. I'd not practiced that at 90kts! It was more of a mushy, sloppy wave.

I followed a Citation to 36L and was directed to the RV parking area.

This was a weird year because of the weather. However, early morning arrivals are far less weird in general. And I agree that the biggest pothole for most of us is the presence of the slow movers. There HAS to be a way to get them to the field without clogging up the 1800' pattern.
 
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