celstar

Well Known Member
It all started with a panel upgrade I took out a Tru Trak ADI II and re placed it with a Tru Trak EFIS, also replaced the Vans oil pressure and Vans Volt gauge with a JPI 700 and a EI Oil temp/pressure gauge and also replaced the flight systems A 10 fuel flow with there AFP 30.

I had a rated shop do this along with a annual because of time constraints. What first got my attention was the A&P calling me and letting me know that the Vans amp gauge had melted in the back of the gauge. He stated that he called Vans and was told it was probably a bad gauge. I picked up the plane today and flew a short flight back to the home field 50 miles away. On the flight back I smelled somthing hot and kept getting worse so started to really scan everything and found the Vans fuel gauges now not working and very hot. Shut down the avionics master and landed.

Any ideas on what could be causing this? Volts show good on the new JPI.
 
If the amp gauge is the type that passes all the current through it, it could be a circuit overload somewhere, look at what was changed?
 
smoking gauges

Van's gauges are very cheap, I had the same thing happen to me, Iwas taxiing for take off when I smelled smoke, returned to ramp, both fuel gauges melted down. I believe there was another thread concerning this problem. After a thorough inspection there was nothing wrong with the electrical system, I know have a different brand of gauges.
 
More problems tell me what you guys think

It all started with a panel upgrade I took out a Tru Trak ADI II and re placed it with a Tru Trak EFIS, also replaced the Vans oil pressure and Vans Volt gauge with a JPI 700 and a EI Oil temp/pressure gauge and also replaced the flight systems A 10 fuel flow with there AFP 30.

Well this is not ending well. I have gone round and round with this shop and he feels he is not responsible for the fix and i feel I'm not responsible for all of the bill to fix there oversight. Please take a look at his comments and then at my comments and let me know what you the people feel?


The aircraft came in for the installation of an EFIS, a JPI 700 and an oil pressure/oil temperature combination gauge. We removed an oil temp, oil pressure, voltage, and EGT gauges. After installation of all the units the AMP meter which was still installed in the airplane overheated and melted a hole in the bottom of the instrument which we replaced with a new unit of the same manufacture after a phone call with Van?s Aircraft and no more problems were noted with it. It ran cool and indicated correctly. The instrument lighting for all the units was powered by a separate circuit from the fuse holder power block.
The customer picked up his airplane and when he was about halfway home he stated that he smelled something hot. We investigated at the Manitowoc airport and found that the fuse for the engine gauges circuit was blown and the fuel gauges had gotten hot during the flight. We checked the amperage draw in the circuit and found it to be approx .4 amps. With the engine running we were able to get the gauges to get hot again. The ammeter though did not get hot at all but the amp meter did not have its light installed in it as the lamp was blown from the first event. The fuel gauges still had their lights in and they were getting hot. (Note: later we took one of the damaged fuel gauges and put it on the bench connected to a battery and with just power on the light the gauge got quite warm.)
Joe Schmidt the avionics instructor from FVTC volunteered to come over and assist with the troubleshooting. When he looked at the schematic from Vans he said that the lights were not wired per the print. There is a lighting control in the print but nothing installed in the plane to provide any form of resistance to hold down voltage under 14 volts. With the engine running we had about 14.6 to 14.7 volts which we verified with a volt meter and according to Vans the lights are supposed to be wired for 14 volts max.
The back lighting for the gauges was on a single circuit wire and connected to a butt splice feeding the instrument lighting that they were dividing the voltage between themselves which kept them running a bit cooler. With the removal of the extra engine gauges it increased the voltage as well as the heat given off by the operating lamps. A combination of the excessive heat inside the gauge which in turn caused the gauge to damage itself and created more heat, is what started the gauge melting down. The schematic showed that we should have a lighting control which would have helped control the voltage to the lights. We also found two circuits with butt splices with one wire going into them and 4 or five coming out which we replaced. The ammeter and the new fuel quantity gauge were also placed on their own circuits with their own fuses.
The avionics did not have a problem because they are able to accept 14 or 28 volt systems. Joe said between the combination of the light wiring and the removal of the gauges and associated lights is what caused our problem. We installed a new fuel gauge and wired it because it is a different style of gauge. The airplane was operated for about 30 min after installation of the gauge with no problems noted. The fuel gauge and the ammeter both worked correctly with no overheating and correct indications.

My invoice for the fix of what I feel was there cause was $1789.33

Here is what my response to this was.


Bruce, this looks like it is not going to end well. I did not tell you guys to rent a airplane to come down and check the burnt gauges so there is no way I plan on paying for any aircraft rental or gas. The reason I came to you for service is because I did not have time to install and then diagnose problems that I may have had when I installed the items in question. I figured that taking it to a professional will make the project get done faster and safer because the person working on it has trained to do the work and knows what to look for with out using trial and error. So that being said I agreed to pay the $70.00 per hour to have the project done right and on a timely basis. Your initial estimate was for a max of 25 hours and another 5 for the annual for a total of 30 hours. You guys did it in 27 hours which was great. The things that got me a little was when things were done on the airplane and not talked about such as new spark plugs, making a bracket on your own, misc. wire and connectors $25.00 ?, not asking me what oil to put in for the oil change, not asking me if I wanted the same volt meter that burnt out and then charging me for two day shipping( I have a extra volt meter here we could have tried first) It sounds like there was allot of time and money spent extra on the oil pressure line only having it turn out to be a bad crimp, I also feel that the whole gps adventure pilot thing could have been handled with me doing some of the phone work that I got charged 70.00 per hour for had I known I was going to be charged for that. Even with all of this I still did not complain about it and thought o.k they did what I asked and probably a good job go pick up the plane and enjoy.

So that is what I did only to find that the fuel flow unit does not even work cant read the screen on it and called Andrew over to ask him if he seen this screen, he says yes not sure what that is!, O.k then asked Andrew did you put in the parameters for K value that I asked you to get off of the old unit to put in so it does not have to be recalibrated, he says no!, O.k keep looking at the instruments and see some in Knots other in MPH and nothing really programmed or calibrated. O.k I can live with that also keep getting ready to depart and then do so only to start to smell that hot melting plastic smell and start looking for the problem, I'm glad that I was only 20 miles out at this point. I guess I could have lived with all of it but then come back with this Extremely over inflated bill, paying for things that should not have even happened, if when the Volt meter melted and test were run or your guy that you brought in to help you would have been brought in at that time and not when it was almost to late. I do know that if I was doing the install and I melted the Volt meter like it was I would not have flown until I knew for sure (by running tests in all parameters) what caused it for sure. I guess the aviation business is allot different then the Harley-Davidson business because I know that if I had a customer that had a problem with a safety issue on a motorcycle (and I have) and I told him that it was not our fault because we over looked something ( especially when there is a clear sign something was not right (Volt meter)that was done at some other shop or manufacture and then proceeded to hand him another bill that is extremely over inflated I would not be doing this very long and could not sleep at night. I believe in your mind that you believe that you guys didn't do any thing wrong but I also believe that if you think about this more you will indeed do what is the right thing to do.

There is no signed estimate for any of this also. Please let me know what you all think, maybe I'm wrong or to attached to this?
 
This sounds like a tough situation and I can see both sides.

From the avionics shop side the gauges overheating due to the lights is not really something they could forsee nor were they originally responsible for the wiring of the light circuit. Removing a few of the gauges very likely reduced the load on the lighting circuit increasing the voltage to the remaining lights which were incorrectly wired before the shop got a hold of it. So what they are saying makes sense. Is it really their fault they were miswired from the get-go... no. Is it their fault that Van's gauges melt so easy with 14.7 volts to the lamps... no again

However I can understand your frustration with the bill. If I was going to fly down to work on a customers airplane I let them know in advance the flight/gas charges are extra and would only do it if they agree. It really sounds like they were trying to do the right thing getting you fixed up but there should have been some better communication during the process. I would also think they would discount the usual rate due to these special circumstances, but not all shops can do that and expect stay in business.

Using your Harley analogy, suppose a customer brought in a totally custom bike that he built and wanted you fix the charging system. The alternator and regulator are toast when he brings it in. In the process you burn up a brand new alternator and regulator you just installed due to his incorrect wiring of the system. Are you then going to fix his wiring for free (because you should have known better) and then install a 2nd alt/reg and only charge him for one alternator and one regulator?

Personally I would have handled things different because I like to keep customers happy, but then again maybe that's why I'm broke :D
 
Thanks

Walt, thanks for your input I do agree with some of what you have said and have given them every chance to make this right but here again yesterday whent to bite the bullet and pick-up the plane paid the bill (why I'm not sure) and flew the plane for a hour only to see the new EI fuel gauge not calibrated right. Flew for the hour and the gauge never went off of 42 gallons. This is after I told them there is only 40 usable gallons any way.:mad::mad:
 
Walt, thanks for your input I do agree with some of what you have said and have given them every chance to make this right but here again yesterday whent to bite the bullet and pick-up the plane paid the bill (why I'm not sure) and flew the plane for a hour only to see the new EI fuel gauge not calibrated right. Flew for the hour and the gauge never went off of 42 gallons. This is after I told them there is only 40 usable gallons any way.:mad::mad:

The gauge can't read the top 6+ gallons in the tank.