FasGlas

FasGlas

Well Known Member
I don't know how they stay in biz. After hearing the horror stories about Lycon service I have now lived one of my own. After 5 months waiting for my 4 O-360 cylinders to be OH, lie after lie from Loren, never one returned call, I finally picked up all my stuff today to take it all to a shop that treats customers better. Never again!
 
Lycon is known for building some of the best race engines in the business (Reno and Red Bull) but also for really, really slow service and less than stellar customer support. If you are in a rush, you probably should go elsewhere because it seems they are always months late on delivery times.
 
I've recently bought new cylinders with their magic treatment, high comp pistons, indexed cam and they redid the balancing on my crank and rods while I waited. The new cylinders took about 90 days. Ken gave me a world of experience in a nutshell while running my stuff through the shop. Loren educated me on new engine starts and how to baby a slightly hotrod engine as well as gave me a complete tour of the facilities.

I'm pretty impressed with a company that takes that kind of time with, to them, a small time order, but to me a big bunch of money. I've emailed Loren recently with no answer too. I figure either he's on vacation or it went into his junk mail - that happens. I'll call him next week and will certainly get my answers.

I'm guessing someone either had lost emails or ticked them off and lost the relationship one would hope to develop with a firm that builds some of the best engines in the world. When you see a poster on Ken's wall of Sean Tucker so young he's hardly recognizable, and realize they've been building his engines all these years one tends to appreciate who they are and what they do.

Suggest you call them, mend fences and get back to business. I see some vendor bashing here that isn't called for and hope you'll all think through the reality of what these companies do, the information you give them and the time frame you're expecting for your orders.

PS: don't know what an auto engine owner would know of first hand experience with Ly-Con, maybe heresay...? And I can't imagine overhauling cylinders given the current prices of new and the lifespan of aluminum heads....
 
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rv6ejguy said:
Lycon is known for building some of the best race engines in the business (Reno and Red Bull) but also for really, really slow service and less than stellar customer support. If you are in a rush, you probably should go elsewhere because it seems they are always months late on delivery times.
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This.

Best engines money can buy, but if you're in a hurry look else where.
 
Four years ago I sent six new cylinders in there for their upgrades. They promised me they would take a week and they shipped them out to me, in one week. I have four hundred hours on those cylinders now.
I understand the frustration of the OP but my experience was a good one.
 
flyingriki said:
PS: don't know what a rotary owner would know of first hand experience with Ly-Con...? And I can't imagine overhauling cylinders given the current prices of new and the lifespan of aluminum heads....
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First, I don't fly a rotary since Subaru does not build one...

Second, I've been involved with several Reno teams over the years as a technical adviser with regards to engines, turbos and fuel injection. Many of these teams use Ly-Con as a rebuilder so I've heard their experiences- best engines out there but not the best service, especially with regards to doing the jobs on time.
 
I'm sure if I was a Reno racer I might have gotten better service but 5 MONTHS and all I got was lie after lie from them. The countless numbers of promised call back I NEVER got. LyCon service sucks and the people there lie. Just to prove my point, I had an appointment yesterday at 1pm to meet Ken to get my stuff back. I pull in the driveway at 1pm, guess what, Ken already left. I will never do biz with them again, I will never recommend anyone to them. They obviously don't need the biz and they obviously don't care about customers. I know I'm not the only person that picked up their parts and went somewhere better.
 
flyingriki said:
I've recently bought new cylinders with their magic treatment, high comp pistons, indexed cam and they redid the balancing on my crank and rods while I waited. The new cylinders took about 90 days. Ken gave me a world of experience in a nutshell while running my stuff through the shop. Loren educated me on new engine starts and how to baby a slightly hotrod engine as well as gave me a complete tour of the facilities.

I'm pretty impressed with a company that takes that kind of time with, to them, a small time order, but to me a big bunch of money. I've emailed Loren recently with no answer too. I figure either he's on vacation or it went into his junk mail - that happens. I'll call him next week and will certainly get my answers.

I'm guessing someone either had lost emails or ticked them off and lost the relationship one would hope to develop with a firm that builds some of the best engines in the world. When you see a poster on Ken's wall of Sean Tucker so young he's hardly recognizable, and realize they've been building his engines all these years one tends to appreciate who they are and what they do.Suggest you call them, mend fences and get back to business. I see some vendor bashing here that isn't called for and hope you'll all think through the reality of what these companies do, the information you give them and the time frame you're expecting for your orders.

PS: don't know what an auto engine owner would know of first hand experience with Ly-Con, maybe heresay...? And I can't imagine overhauling cylinders given the current prices of new and the lifespan of aluminum heads....
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it is NOT hard to build a motor that performs like that when you rebuild it once or twice a month... <GG>
 
There are plenty of companies that can build a lycoming. It's not like this is cutting edge technology. You voted with your dollars after being more than patient enough, which is how it should be. My pistons are Lycon and they were far past the initial promised delivery date....but I had read about this habit of theirs so ordered with quite a bit of time to spare. Thanks for sharing your story, I hope you have better luck moving forward.
 
Intentions

I've found them to be well intentioned & honorable, albeit priority-challenged.

My experience with government agencies makes their service look like gold!

It's perspective!
 
I just ordered a new set of ECi cylinders from Air Power. Very nice, very helpful and the best prices. I have a new set of Performance Aero 10:1 pistons that should work perfectly in the new cylinders.
ColoRv, you're right. You spend your money at places that treat you right and you refer others to those places. I'm a builder, flyer, A&P and I do prop balancing. My story will be passed on. Thanks...
 
There is a reason why so many Reno racers and Red Bull teams use Ly-Con. The engines are powerful and they last. These guys really know these engines. The Venture had the same engine over 4 seasons plus some cross country work and test flying- never touched and the compression and leak down was still good at the end of it all- this at 750+hp. I'm impressed with that but the engine was 4-5 months late and there was an extra charge over what was originally agreed upon. That part is not so good. A second F1 entry recently also waited 5 months past the delivery date-again, not good.

Perhaps the problem is when you build the best stuff out there, everyone wants one and it's not humanly possible to keep up with demand... In that case you need to tell people the straight scoop- "you are going to have to wait X months for us to get it done". Then THEY have the choice on where to take it if it does not fit into their timetable.
 
FasGlas said:
I just ordered a new set of ECi cylinders from Air Power. Very nice, very helpful and the best prices. I have a new set of Performance Aero 10:1 pistons that should work perfectly in the new cylinders.
ColoRv, you're right. You spend your money at places that treat you right and you refer others to those places. I'm a builder, flyer, A&P and I do prop balancing. My story will be passed on. Thanks...
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Have had excellent service from Ly-Con. New cylinders ported and flow balanced in a little over a month, balanced my crank and checked the balance of my rods while I waited, gave me over an hour of valuable advice along with a tour of the facilities and put together an indexed cam when mine was red tagged in 3 weeks. Answered way too many questions for the value of my business with good humor and plenty of patience.

Now does that sound like "a very long time"....? I must be pretty squeaky!!

Can't say enough about them and, along with many, many satisfied customers, will continue to pass along the good word.
 
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This is the downside to these forums, one person has a bad experience, all of a sudden 13k people think the place sucks, when in reality I'll never fly behind anything but a Lycon motor.

Pretty much the inverse of how Aerosport became so popular.
 
Sig600 said:
This is the downside to these forums, one person has a bad experience, all of a sudden 13k people think the place sucks, when in reality I'll never fly behind anything but a Lycon motor.

Pretty much the inverse of how Aerosport became so popular.
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I think you're over reacting. Several people are discussing Lycon's extremely slow delivery times and their business model to make promises they have no intention of keeping. It's common business practice and has nothing to do with their clearly competent engine building skills. Nothing said here has been false. They do build great engines. They do promise delivery times that they have no intent on making. They do tell a customer who calls asking where their overdue stuff is "should be shipped this week" week after week. They do, I've lived it.

With that said, this is a discussion about their service not their competence. They clearly build good engines. But a potential customer has to know that this is a company that if you sit quietly and wait...you will wait a very long time. It's a squeaky wheel thing.
 
ColoRv said:
I think you're over reacting. Several people are discussing Lycon's extremely slow delivery times and their business model to make promises they have no intention of keeping. It's common business practice and has nothing to do with their clearly competent engine building skills. Nothing said here has been false. They do build great engines. They do promise delivery times that they have no intent on making. They do tell a customer who calls asking where their overdue stuff is "should be shipped this week" week after week. They do, I've lived it.

With that said, this is a discussion about their service not their competence. They clearly build good engines. But a potential customer has to know that this is a company that if you sit quietly and wait...you will wait a very long time. It's a squeaky wheel thing.
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No one is talking about their ability to build an engine, and there are many shops that build a fine engine. It's the way they treat people, not Reno racers or Red Bull guys, but the builder / flyer that's looking to get an engine or work done. LyCon has a huge reputation for lying and putting off customers for as long as they can. I don't have a problem with a time frame, I have a problem with being lied to and ignored. For those that had a good experience with them I'm sure you'll easily find more then one that didn't. I find plenty just at my airport.
 
I purchased some products and services from them last year. I knew from the first conversation if I was going to do business with them I was going to have to pester the **** out of them. That is exactly what I did for about 2 months and the stuff showed up. I called every Friday and every Monday. I also sent emails at that time.
 
Lycon's Late

Depends on what you want.
Lycon engines and cylinders have a steller reputation in Grumman Land.
Delivery time is slow so we order early. My 0-320 with all the cylinder and
sump porting took from Aug 2010 to Jan 2011 to get built. Gave me full credit
for my core. When I let Chris know that my airplane was wating on them it
took 2 weeks for it to ship.

This engine Pulls Hard, sucks fuel and I love it. My next engine will be an
0-375 and as soon as it comes in I will pull the chlinders of and send em to
Lycon.

David Mojonnier
A&P Tucson
 
I've had experience with 3 different 'local' performance engine shops here in CA, and I have to say, none of them can deliver an engine on time.

Not

One

Pick the one that you can visit in person once a week and bug them, you will not regret that decision. Phone calls and emails are generally last priority to the guy that walks in the front door.

Stories of Lycon are great if you fly up there, walk in the door and talk to them.

Heck, the only shop I've ever seen deliver an engine on time is Tim's Aircraft Engines in Long Beach, but they don't do performance work, just fantastic stock overhauls.
 
The more I hear about engine rebuilders, the more tempted I am to buy a new engine from Van's. A good rebuild is, what, $15,000? Then I'd need to supply a good core, $3K-$4K, and then wait?wait?.pester?wait. The Van's price comes with most accessories too.
 
For budgeting figure a couple thousand more for parts that get red tagged and you have to replace. For me that was rods, sump and the case needed through studs. Then you might need to have several ADs done and no accessories are included as you have already alluded to.
 
If you find the right engine, you can come out way ahead on a good rebuild/overhaul. The motor needs to have a well known history, all logs, and a lot of luck.
 
MOJO said:
Depends on what you want.
Lycon engines and cylinders have a steller reputation in Grumman Land.
Delivery time is slow so we order early. My 0-320 with all the cylinder and
sump porting took from Aug 2010 to Jan 2011 to get built. Gave me full credit
for my core. When I let Chris know that my airplane was wating on them it
took 2 weeks for it to ship.

This engine Pulls Hard, sucks fuel and I love it. My next engine will be an
0-375 and as soon as it comes in I will pull the chlinders of and send em to
Lycon.

David Mojonnier
A&P Tucson
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David, Sump Porting? Can you share a little more about this? Would this be removing the tubes from the sump and porting (cleaning the casting up) and polishing in the spider area?
 
Lycon Sump Porting

Ok. This engine was orded for a Grumman AA-1B upgrade as an
0-320 D2H. It has the hollow crank because even then my plan was to some
day build an RV-4. I have the ugly habbet of always trying to get a two-fer.

My friend and Grumman Guru Ken Blackman helped me speck the motor from
Lycon and sump porting along with cylinder porting was part of the package.

Looking in there ya can't see much. I assume it is what you said, just clean
up the flashing and such.

Lycon dyno sheet put the HP at 177/2700 rpm. My airplane is a little fatty
at 1153 with oil. 62 pitch sensenich prop and climbs like crazy compard to
the 108 hp o235 that we had.

Just moved in to our hanger and will take delivery on an 0-360 Tiger motor to
be the core for the Vans airplane that is morphing into a -7 as my favorite
person in the world wants to sit up front. She has me wraped around her
little finger and I like things that way.

David Mojonnier
AA-1B Tucson
Empanage order will determine our future Vans.
 
Superior sells a sump they say is ported and then Aerosport Power will clean it up even further. Not surprised Ly-Con does the same. The Superior sump is far superior (!) to the Lycoming stock sump in flow design already so a big improvement all around!
 
sump

The Superior sump also has a "bullet" directly above the carb that is supposed to improve flow and mixture distribution.
 
Superior Sump

Wish Superior made a sump for Angle Valve Motors.

My understanding is their sump is pounds lighter than the Lycoming,yes?

Mojo
 
jrs14855 said:
The Superior sump also has a "bullet" directly above the carb that is supposed to improve flow and mixture distribution.
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In addition to the diverter it's tubes flow in sweeps, not the 90 degree flat top casting in a Lycoming. Also I noticed the pipes that come out of the sump remain the same size as the connecting hose for their full length. My stock sump pipes were smaller in the sump and belled out to hose size.
Didn't weigh it, sorry....
 
MOJO said:
Wish Superior made a sump for Angle Valve Motors.

My understanding is their sump is pounds lighter than the Lycoming,yes?

Mojo
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ECI makes a great cold induction sump setup for 360's. I've been using one for years.
 
sump

For the 0 320 the stock sump has two different diameter tube connectors-the steel part that is swaged into the sump. The small diameter probably cost a few horsepower. These seem to be more prevalent on some later manufacture engines. No idea why Lycoming did this.
 
Plug for Lycon

I got my IO 540 ported topped and 10:1 pistons on time and fair price. Pleasant people to deal with as well.
 
Bad Lycon Experience

I vowed not to bash Lycon after a horrible experience with an IO360 Prop Strike they rebuilt, but this post has just compelled me to respond....

I bought this used RV4 from a friend of mine who had a 300 hour Lycon engine, allegedly with 10:1 pistons, ported balanced etc... In September of 2012 I had a prop strike and returned the engine for the (first of two) Prop Strike rebuilds.


It took six months to get the engine back. Lycon red tagged their 9:1 pistons and cylinders (which were supposed to be 10:1 pistons) and they told me that I had a "pitted camshaft" and corroded "lifter bodies". Lycon had the camshaft re-grounded and the lifter bodies resurfaced. I bought new 8:5:1 pistons and new steel cylinders.

In March I finally got the engine back after balancing, porting and a 2 hour dyno test. During the following 35 hours of break-in, I couldn't get the engine to run under 220 degrees oil temps. Turns out the magneto was timed 25 degrees off by Lycon (found out when I brought it down to their facility in Visalia...oh, but they corrected it for $150 extra).

In September of 2013, one day after the re-timing of the magneto, I sustained another prop strike while performing a flooded start. This time, due to the excessive amount of time it took Lycon to rebuild the engine, I decided to go somewhere else. I delivered it to Premier Aircraft in Oregon.

Now get this....Upon tear down of the 35 hour Lycon engine I still had a pitted camshaft and corroded lifter bodies, one with a hole in it. In addition, the I needed new main bearings for the crankshaft as they were worn (all stuff I paid to have replaced by Lycon in the first prop strike).

After a lengthy series of phone calls with Ken and Loren, they finally agreed to sell me (at cost), a new camshaft and new lifter bodies, They had no explanation as to the cam pitting, worn bearings and holes in the lifter bodies. This is impossible to obtain in only 35 hours of "by-the-book" dry summer California break-in.

Turns out that second prop strike was a blessing in disguise if it wasn't for the near $50,000 or so I had to put into the two rebuilds. Needless to say, I'll never deal with or recommend anyone to Lycon again.
 
How does timing manifest itself in high oil temps and not CHT's? 25 degree shift in timing is huge, how did you not notice doing mag check on runup or see it in CHT/EGT's? It would not have passed the dyno 25 degrees off.

Couple of other things... if your friend told you it had 10:1 pistons when it didn't, how is that Lycons fault? Did you do your due diligence?

Cam pitting... 35 hours between March and September is a lot of time for the engine to sit and the cam to develop rust (5 hours per month?). Dry climate or not, the engine makes all the moisture it needs to condense and cause rust. Did you ever see the cam that came out? Recommend you start using cam-guard. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/camguard.php?clickkey=92942

You needed new main bearings, AFTER the second prop strike, and again that's Lycons fault?

Sorry, but maybe the bigger problem here is banging the prop and not flying the engine enough (or to stay current?).
 
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Two prop stikes and canopy loss

I'm responding to the criticism I got from sharing my bad Lycon experience...

First...there's no way camshaft pitting should re-occur on a newly grounded camshaft in only 35 hours of by-the-book California dry summer break-in.

Secondly..it is Lycon's fault that the crankshaft main bearing was worn. Crankshaft main bearings are standard replacement in prop strikes, and this one showed evidence that it was excessively worn for just 35 hours.

Due diligence? I had a pre buy inspection of the plane before I bought it, compressions were good and everything checked out OK. No pre buy inspection that I'm aware of checks for camshaft pitting. My friend is the one who got ripped off when he paid for and was told that 10:1 pistons were installed when in actuality they were 9:1 (I had them replaced with 8.5:1). Point is, I think we were both lied to.

As for the prop strikes...I'm not proud of them. The first occurred flying my first passenger in the back of this (new to me) RV4. It had a 74 inch prop on the standard short legs. I flew the plane all the way from Florida to California without incident, but when I got home I "grazed" the prop on a cross-wind landing. Taxied to my hangar not knowing I struck the prop. Sure it was my fault. When I had the engine re built, I put the longer gear on it.

The second prop strike was also my fault. It occurred the day after I had Lycon re time the magneto they said was off 25 degrees. It was a flooded start, full throttle, mixture back...I was following the flooded start procedure (which I know by memory, but decided to use my check list in the back of my log book). My mistake was that I didn't have the stick back all the way as my log book was between my stomach and the stick. It fired immediately and slammed into the ground before I could pull the throttle back and mixture forward. Lesson learned...

Incidentally. I did a magneto checks when it was off 25 degrees. I have one magneto and one electronic ignition. When you do a magneto check on the magneto, it doesn't drop as if you had two magnetos...It otherwise flew normally, even though it was off 25 degrees.

The canopy loss was another story. That happened in 12 years ago with an RV4 I put 700 hours on. You can be suspicious if you like, but it's true and I'm still alive, hopefully having learned something from it to share with others. I didn't mention loosing an engine in a Bonanza, 1000 ft. AGL, 10 miles out of Oshkosh. I have dozens of experiences in life, that should have ended in disaster...

Be suspicious of me if you like, others may learn something from my mistakes...
 
lella said:
The canopy loss was another story. That happened in 12 years ago with an RV4 I put 700 hours on. You can be suspicious if you like, but it's true and I'm still alive, hopefully having learned something from it to share with others. I didn't mention loosing an engine in a Bonanza, 1000 ft. AGL, 10 miles out of Oshkosh. I have dozens of experiences in life, that should have ended in disaster...

Be suspicious of me if you like, others may learn something from my mistakes...
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That's just bad luck. Out of curiosity, what was the outcome? I was flying 135 in Bonanza's and my boss lost the engine in one right after takeoff, at night :eek:. Airplane was a total loss but all 4 walked away, albiet with some minor injuries. They may be expensive but that is a stout airplane.

The most important person to learn from mistakes is the offender, but kudos for sacking up and sharing the stories. Like they say, learn from the mistakes of others because you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.
 
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