R

RV7AAAAAAA

Active Member
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...m=110005735842&ih=001&sspagename=STRK:MEWN:IT
Well I decided against the affordable Briggs and Stratton engine and bought a Lycoming. I just bought it on Ebay some of you may have seen it. Click above:
(Hope this works)
This O-320-E2A has zero time SMOH 31 years ago.
My questions are what would you guys do? Completely tear down and inspect as if a core? Where do I look for corrosion problems. Where would I look for AD's since 1975 on this engine. Or just fill it up with oil, turn by hand and go fly?

I'd appreciate comments, suggestions, opinions, and what I would do's from you all. I hope you're out there Mahlon, George, Dan, etc.

Thanks Jim Kirks
getting ready to mate s/b wings to q/b fuse
 
Definitely teardown. Especially if it really was unpickled for that amount of time. You could find corrosion anywhere and everywhere in a 31 year old "0" engine. You must have gotten a great deal on it, so don't be worried if you do find something needing replacing. Sounds like a fun project!! :)
 
At minimum, pull the pots and rear case to check cam and gears. These as well as cylinders are high corrosion areas.
If it were mine Id tear down.
 
Tear it all the way down. I was in almost your exact situation with my engine - O-320-E2A sitting in Houston humidity for years with no protection. Got a killer deal on it but had the risk of finding problems. I found virtually none. The only damage I found was a bad camshaft, and it was able to be reground.

I would suggest one thing different that what I did. Unless you have some Lycoming overhaul time under your belt, send the disassembled critical parts out to be checked and prep'd for reinstallation by a reputable shop. I did everything myself, except for the cam shaft and lifter assemblies. Unfortunately, even though I had a very good crack-free, precisely balanced crank (done myself), I didn't refinish the main crank lip seal area properly. Now I have a seepy main seal, unless I want to split the case again.

Point being, you may rebuild top-fuel dragster engines every weekend, but you miss one item and it may be a major pain in the backside down the road.

2 cents
 
Tear Down

I would suggest a tear down inspection to verify that the engine doesn't have corrosion. If you send it to a shop, they should comply with any SBs and ADs that need to be completed on the engine. You can always decide to go through with an o'h if there is any corrosion that warrants it. You'll also have to be careful about any SBs or ADs on things like the fuel system and mags.

Good luck.

Rhonda Barrett-Bewley
Barrett Precision Engines, Inc.
 
lycoming stored unpickled

Thanks everyone for your help. There is no doubt now I will tear it down and send out each component for inspection, service, yellow tag. (hope I didn't get ripped). I hope corrosion does not make parts like the crank unserviceable. I don't feel qualified to reassemble engine myself, but I may attempt it for the education and I have 2 RV buddies who've been there, done that, and offered to help me. And yes they also said "tear it down." I know there is a fear of internal corrosion on new engines that have been stored for months without proper long term storage. Let alone 31 years. That seems like corrosion paranoia probably something to do with $25,000 price tag. I suspect a new engine that's never ran may be more at risk of corrosion than a mid time engine that has sat for years.
Low Pass - Thanks for your post, your situation makes me feel a little more at ease.
Thanks again
Jim
 
RV7AAAAAAA said:
I suspect a new engine that's never ran may be more at risk of corrosion than a mid time engine that has sat for years.
Click to expand...

You might get lucky on this point. These things are pretty greased up when assembled. Also, the by-products of combustion pollute engine oil and contribute greatly to corrosion. Since your motor was never run, you'll avoid this contamination. Good luck.
 
RV7AAAAAAA said:
I suspect a new engine that's never ran may be more at risk of corrosion than a mid time engine that has sat for years.
Click to expand...

Much has to do, where the engine has been sitting. My Lycoming in the dryer state of Utah, has done much better corrosion wise, than one from Houston, Tx. might, simply because we have much lower average humidity. My new Lyc, 0360 in 96' which was pre-run at the factory, had all cylinders removed 6 or 7 years later after not running. It still looked brand new without a hint of corrosion.

No sign of corrosion in the hollow crank either, when I installed the C/S prop.

Originally, it had the Lycoming "six month" pickle job. But it's not like it was filled with oil, as it wasn't.

Cylinders were removed by A&P's for a wrist-pin AD. Lyc paid for it. And the pins were the proper ones.

L.Adamson RV6A
 
And the results were.....

For the rest of us starting to contemplate spending a years worth of college on hunk of aluminum and steel... Please post an update when you find out the results!
 
And the results were

I can't figure how to quote 'message in reply' but anyway, Bob Johnson asked that I post my Unpickled Lycoming results. Bob, I will do that when I receive engine. My next challenge is getting it here. Fed-Ex freight will pick up/deliver, but only insure .50 a pound. $200.00 additional ins. will only cover $1500.00. Shipping is only $283.00. Austin, TX to Farmington, NM. I am anxious so I'm sure the tear down will be immediate when I get it.

However, I'm feeling pretty good about this. Everyone has posted good results with their unpickled, stored Lycomings, including a private email from a gentleman named Bill. Who purchased an overhauled in 1959, put in storage and never used 0-290. Maybe he'll read this and post his story and pictures. Anyway he had no signs of corrosion and pictures show his cylinders clean and perfect. I hope I'm not the first to find bad corrosion problems. I'll keep you posted either way.
Thanks Jim
 
Devil?s Advocate

Let?s say you do a bore scope examination of the cylinders and they are clean. Then you peek in the mag holes/ accessory holes and they look clean as well. The engine turns freely. It?s all looking good from the limited inspection you can give it.

It seems like it would be reasonable to assume that the rest of the internals are not crumpling from rust, there may be some dusting of rust maybe even a little pitting.


Warning: Ponderings of a heritic follow.​

So it may have some light rust, so what. Mount it, start it and if it checks out, fly it. Sure the crank, cam, followers may wear faster (maybe everything will wear faster) but do you really have to worry about catastrophic failure above and beyond the normal new engine worries? Wouldn?t oil consumption, oil analysis and compression checks give you a decent picture of the engine health? I can?t help but think that the guidelines put out by Lycoming concerning engine breakdown are so conservative that they are a CYA attempt to keep their lawyers happy, or keep parts orders up.

If you can convince me that the chance of a catastrophic failure is moderately higher, I?ll gladly take it all back. In the meantime I?ll be wearing a flak jacket.
 
Here is the note I sent Jim. As he indicated, it might be useful to the rest of you:

Good luck with your engine. It looks like you did well. The O-290 I bought for my -9 was kind of the same deal. Great price, overhauled in '59 and put in storage, never used.

After talking to a few IA's the overall suggestion was to pull all four cylinders so the rubber seals could be replaced, then with the cylinders off, inspect the crank and cam, if they were rusted, major it. If not, top it and fire it up.
(Addition: there is no rubber gasket to dry out between the case halves.)

My engine looked brand new on the inside, not a speck of rust. You might get that lucky but you won't know until you inspect it.

Looking at the pictures on eBay I see the fuel pump was removed and a
plate installed. This is good and bad news. you will need to remove the accessory case and may need to replace the left cam gear. This is the gear that drives the fuel pump push rod, which I'm sure you will also need. They can be found on eBay as well.

You can read about my trials and tribulations on my web site: http://www.repucci.com/bill/engine.html

When looking at the pictures, you will be stunned, as I was, at how clean the cylinders are. Also note the challenge I had fitting an oil filter to my engine. I suspect you won't have those issues as your accessory case looks newer than mine.

The mags may be an issue. Try them out and if the work, great! My engine did not come with mags so I elected to go with duel Pmags.

The other good news is locating a carb for your engine (and other parts) will be very easy.

Best of luck!
Click to expand...
 
I kind of agree with Hugh. Rust would lead to accelerated wear, but I doubt it would lead to catastrophic failure--I would like to read the reasoning of anyone who thinks it would, as I am no engine expert. None of the following applies, however, if the Lyc. crankshaft AD resulted from catastrophic failures resulting from corrosion & if you have a hollow crank.

I have been doing oil analysis on my C-75 for several years now. (I have access to a spectrometer and did oil analysis for F-15's for 15 years, but of course, they don't have Lycomings.) I can tell the difference in the readings when it has sat not running very much in the winter vs. summer when it flies regularly. Wear metal concentrations are higher when it sits and this is probably from a little corrosion.

OA readings for your engine will be unique to your engine, regardless of whether it has sat 1 month or 100 years since O/H. However, for a reference, I can send you a spreadsheet with the readouts for some friends' Lycomings I have done OA on.

So if you pull the cylinders, replace the seals & everything looks clean, you can run the engine, pull oil samples regularly & see what they show you.
 
From first-hand experience, if the corrosion gets to the cam, it will maintain power until the rust gets through the hardening, then it will lose power very quickly (like 100 hours span or less). For my money, pull the jugs and check it out. We pulled the #1 on our Cardinal this annual and ended up doing a major because of cam wear & corrosion. No power drop-off on it yet, but it was all the way through the hardening.
 
A years worth of college??

BJohnson said:
For the rest of us starting to contemplate spending a years worth of college on hunk of aluminum and steel... Please post an update when you find out the results!
Click to expand...
*snort* Obviously, you have overlooked the miracle of 'Semester Unit RV Financing'! Yes, SURVF. You see, its not what that Ebay deal or possible teardown/rebuild costs in US dollars. Its what it costs in Semester Units (SUs) that matters.

You've heard it: 'Honey, that airplane in the garage is awfully expensive, ..we could send our daughter to college for what it costs to buy that (insert cool RV thing here)' We've all heard it. But fellow RV'ers, here is MY secret:

Have your daughter go to an incredibly expensive, no merit scholarship, 'elite' college in the East. In MY case its Johns Hopkins (with med school to follow ) :eek: but there are many other, equally overrated and overpriced institutions from which you can choose. And ,while its potentially devastating to your bank account, its GREAT for your RV-building cost analyses. Taking cost per semester, with JHU figures, some easy math yields the much more palatable SU figures. Some examples:

Van's RV7-A QB kit - complete:
1.3 SUs

Superior XP-360 w/FI, Lightspeed, build school and roller cam:
1.2 SUs

Grand Rapids 2 screen EFIS w/IFR GPS and all the geegaws..
0.6 SUs

Need an autopilot?
TruTrak Sorcerer with EVERYTHING:
a steal at 0.3 SUs

You get the idea. And you can plug in your own numbers too! Then, when the MasterCard bill comes, just say phsaww, its nothin' compared to..

See? Simple!

Now, its important that you send the kid to that 'elite' Eastern school or the equivalent. If you send your kid to .. oh say a local community college for the first two years, the SUs get out of hand quickly and trouble will soon follow!

TruTrak Sorcerer? 35.2 SUs :eek: Are you kidding?

So.. what is it? 0.3 SUs or 35.2 SUs? I think we all can figure that out. :D

OK, OK! back on thread:

The GREAT deal on the engine:
Any assembly oils/sealants probably are no longer there and its a dry bone. If whoever built it thought it would go this long before turning, it would be in a drum, packed in cosmolene. If you were driving.. not likely considering the cheap shipping costs, I could turn you on to a great engine guy in Lubbock, TX. But I am unable to send email, since as I write on my laptop, I am looking at my mail server's smoked MB on the kitchen table...

No problemo. A NEW one is only .013 SUs. Cheap.

John
 
Corrosion

osxuser said:
From first-hand experience, if the corrosion gets to the cam, it will maintain power until the rust gets through the hardening, then it will lose power very quickly (like 100 hours span or less). For my money, pull the jugs and check it out. We pulled the #1 on our Cardinal this annual and ended up doing a major because of cam wear & corrosion. No power drop-off on it yet, but it was all the way through the hardening.
Click to expand...

Finally the first report of corrosion problems. Did your engine sit for a long time? Until I read your post I was thinking maybe I'd take my RV parts to Austin and install my 0 SMOH 1975 engine and fly home. Wide open for correct break in. Thanks for the heads up Think I'll tear it down.
Jim
 
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lucky333 said:
*snort* Obviously, you have overlooked the miracle of 'Semester Unit RV Financing'! Yes, SURVF. You see, its not what that Ebay deal or possible teardown/rebuild costs in US dollars. Its what it costs in Semester Units (SUs) that matters.

You've heard it: 'Honey, that airplane in the garage is awfully expensive, ..we could send our daughter to college for what it costs to buy that (insert cool RV thing here)' We've all heard it. But fellow RV'ers, here is MY secret:

Have your daughter go to an incredibly expensive, no merit scholarship, 'elite' college in the East. In MY case its Johns Hopkins (with med school to follow ) :eek: but there are many other, equally overrated and overpriced institutions from which you can choose. And ,while its potentially devastating to your bank account, its GREAT for your RV-building cost analyses. Taking cost per semester, with JHU figures, some easy math yields the much more palatable SU figures. Some examples:

Van's RV7-A QB kit - complete:
1.3 SUs

Superior XP-360 w/FI, Lightspeed, build school and roller cam:
1.2 SUs

Grand Rapids 2 screen EFIS w/IFR GPS and all the geegaws..
0.6 SUs

Need an autopilot?
TruTrak Sorcerer with EVERYTHING:
a steal at 0.3 SUs

You get the idea. And you can plug in your own numbers too! Then, when the MasterCard bill comes, just say phsaww, its nothin' compared to..

See? Simple!

Now, its important that you send the kid to that 'elite' Eastern school or the equivalent. If you send your kid to .. oh say a local community college for the first two years, the SUs get out of hand quickly and trouble will soon follow!

TruTrak Sorcerer? 35.2 SUs :eek: Are you kidding?

So.. what is it? 0.3 SUs or 35.2 SUs? I think we all can figure that out. :D

OK, OK! back on thread:

The GREAT deal on the engine:
Any assembly oils/sealants probably are no longer there and its a dry bone. If whoever built it thought it would go this long before turning, it would be in a drum, packed in cosmolene. If you were driving.. not likely considering the cheap shipping costs, I could turn you on to a great engine guy in Lubbock, TX. But I am unable to send email, since as I write on my laptop, I am looking at my mail server's smoked MB on the kitchen table...

No problemo. A NEW one is only .013 SUs. Cheap.

John
Click to expand...

Our daughter is going to UNM (in state - much cheaper - NM Lottery pays tuition), sharing a dorm room and will have to work part time. I did however buy her a laptop.
Engine = 1 semester (tuition, dorm, books and meal plan)
She's studying Chem. Engineering so she'll be able to pay us back. (or last least buy our fuel for the RV) HA HA
Tossed and turned last night for about a half an hour, got an engine and feeling selfish, but I think I'm over it now.
Jim
 
Accelerated wear leads to clearance limits issues and CAN lead to catastrofic failure. In the case of rust on the cam (followers), where do you think this iron deposits are going? Answer: the filter. And how does it get there? Answer: in the oil of course. And where in the world has that oil been during all this? See where this threads going. Additionally, the connecting rods are, unlike 360-540 rods, cast steel. Any rust not addressed can and has lead to rod failure.
 
Allen Barrett said:
See where this threads going. Additionally, the connecting rods are, unlike 360-540 rods, cast steel. Any rust not addressed can and has lead to rod failure.
Click to expand...
What are 360-540 rods made of?
 
The 360-540 rods are forged steel making them harder to clean because they are polished. Kind of misled maybe as they will certainly rust as well creating pitting but are stronger to begin with and are not as susceptable to fatigue do to corrosion.
 
Still advocating

Accelerated wear leads to clearance limits issues and CAN lead to catastrofic failure.
Click to expand...

No doubt wear leads to failure and rust increased wear. Are you saying catastrophic failure will be caused from a ?possible? light dusting of rust and that the failure is going to happen before a few oil changes? If so, I?m not convinced. Oil analysis and oil filter inspection will shed light on how much engine is getting converted to shavings. There will be warning signs.

We are talking about an engine that looks clean on the limited inspection we can give it and it was pickled by the factory. This a monetary gamble to be sure but only a monetary gamble. I don?t think you are playing Russian Roulette with your life and that is my main point. The payoff could be thousands of dollars if you go just go with it and the engine works as advertised. The downside is it may have to be reworked early on costing big bucks (maybe as much as a new engine), downtime, and a lot of wasted effort. Eigher way you are around to celebrate your good fortune or curse your bad luck :D

The post concerning the rust eating though the hardened surface of the cam is interesting and has my attention. Would you have received any core credit on the cam (and other parts) ? What was the overall condition of the other parts?
 
McFly said:
The post concerning the rust eating though the hardened surface of the cam is interesting and has my attention. Would you have received any core credit on the cam (and other parts) ? What was the overall condition of the other parts?
Click to expand...
The odds of having corrosion on the camshaft/followers, IMO, are miniscule. Spalling damage, maybe.

General corrosion will *not necessarily* drive the engine to some state of impending catastrophic failure. ALL damage drives the engine somewhere closer to a failure. To say that general internal corrosion alone will drive an engine dangerously close to catastrophic failure is a bit extreme, IMO. Crank ID pitting would be my biggest concern for raising risk of a catastrophic failure.
 
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Corrosion pits

My Lyc O-540 crankshaft came apart into 3 pieces at 11K feet over Roswell, NM. Just lucky there was a GREAT BIG runway nearby. The culprit was a corrosion pit just ahead of the 3/4 crank journals. This engine was 1400 SMOH but had only been run 34 hours in the previous seven years. Plane had been stored in a dry hanger in the desert southwest. I've read somewhere that you must add 50 hours per year to the engine time whether it has run or not. The quiet made a believer of me. Tear it down.
 
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I've been following this thread and am a little confused about all the debate. If you tear it down and everything is fine, it costs almost nothing but some time. Along the way, you get some education too. If the innards aren't ok, then it needed tearing down anyway. Seems like a complete no-brainer.
 
RV7AAAAAAA said:
Finally the first report of corrosion problems. Did your engine sit for a long time? Until I read your post I was thinking maybe I'd take my RV parts to Austin and install my 0 SMOH 1975 engine and fly home. Wide open for correct break in. Thanks for the heads up Think I'll tear it down.
Jim
Click to expand...
We had a slightly difference scenaro than you. What happened was the engine was factory new in 1969, it was installed and flown for 900hrs in the airplane before the airplane was parked for 12 years after that. Every 6 months the owner would come out and run it up and change the oil, as well as MMOing the cylinders. After those 12 years, we bought the airplane, and choose to keep flying it as the engine was still making decent power. The cylinders WERE corroded a bit, and it showed with a high oil consumption, and spark plug fouling. As the symptoms started getting worse, I pressured my dad to overhaul it, with no results. Finally this annual, I "detected" a compression problem in the #1 cylinder to have a excuse to pull it. As it turned out, the cam was corroded through the hardening, and the major overhaul ensued. Installed a new cam and four new millenium cylinders. On the plus side, other than the cam and cylinders, there were no major problems with the engine other than those.

For my money, I don't think that it's worth the risk. In my few years in aviation, I've learned the difference between me and the next guy that ends up a statistic is margins. Always keep your margins as wide as you can. I just lost a friend this last weekend, sounds like he was trying to push it in bad weather... I hope I don't fall into that trap again, I know I have before.
 
szicree said:
I've been following this thread and am a little confused about all the debate. If you tear it down and everything is fine, it costs almost nothing but some time. Along the way, you get some education too. If the innards aren't ok, then it needed tearing down anyway. Seems like a complete no-brainer.
Click to expand...
*I think* the point is, tear down if you have any concern. but an engine like this may be an acceptable risk to consider running after taking some measures to assure the integrity. It's all about weighing the risks with the known information. It is not a black and white issue.

2 more cents
 
lycoming stored unpickled

szicree said:
I've been following this thread and am a little confused about all the debate. If you tear it down and everything is fine, it costs almost nothing but some time. Along the way, you get some education too. If the innards aren't ok, then it needed tearing down anyway. Seems like a complete no-brainer.
Click to expand...
I agree this thread has been going crazy, but I don't think it's a debate over whether to tear it down. For me it is a no brainer. I will tear it down. I think this thread is now about what to expect and look for when buying a used Lycoming, stored for 1 year or stored for 31 years. I myself have been looking at used Lycomings for almost 2 years now. I have bid on several and always been outbid. When I bid on these engines I am hoping to get it but also afraid I will.
At the risk of this thread going further, what about Lycoming hurricane victims? A while back I bid on a totaled Archer, I believe, The pictures show this barely recognizable to be an airplane. A close up of this 0-360 in front of a pile of mangled aluminum showed broken fins. I called the salvage yard before placing a bid with a list of questions. He did a good job of talking me out of wanting this, including informing me this plane had been submerged in salt water. He also said scrap value of airplane was worth nothing to him if I won the bid, and he would most likely charge me a couple hundred dollars to remove whats left after taking engine. Knowing this I still bid on plane for $2000.00, looking forward to the trip to Florida thinking I'd throw it in the back of my truck, fill it up with WD-40, rush home and tear it down. Most people thought I was crazy, engine would be a corroded mess. I ended up not winning bid, but called ins. company to find out what winning bid was. He could not tell me who won or winning amount, but asked me what my bid was. He laughed and said it went for about 10 times that amount. I don't see how but there must have been salvagable instruments in this plane. Would this engine have been salvagable within weeks of being submerged in salt water? months or years. There are a lot of these out there, some just exposed to torrential rains. I predict the salvage yard that talked me out of it won the airplane.
Jim
getting ready to mate s/b wings to q/b fuse and tear down stored unpickled Lycoming.
 
0320 stored unpickled

BJohnson said:
For the rest of us starting to contemplate spending a years worth of college on hunk of aluminum and steel... Please post an update when you find out the results!
Click to expand...

Been gone for a while but I'm back now. Sometimes my job keeps me from the RV project for months at a time. But I just wanted to keep everyone posted as promised on unpickled 31 year stored 0 time SMOH 0320-E2A. After removing the cylinders I can see absolutely no signs of corrosion at all. Unless there is corrosion that cannot be seen with the naked eye it appears that I lucked out. There was really no oil in this engine to speak of, but there was a very thick red oil residue everywhere, maybe some type of assembly lube used in 1975. As I continue the tear down to send the pieces off for yellow tags I have read many posts on 0320 E series engines 150 to 160 hp upgrades. Constant speed???? Ohhhh sooo many questions so little time. Thanks again every one if I do find any corrosion problems I'll post again.
Jim
real close to finish fuse, but had to stop to become Lyc. expert
 
corrosion

Jim, take a good look at the tappet body faces. These tappets are made of sintered iron. There will probably be a small round indication on the face. This is where the tappet was tested for hardness and is not an issue. Find a 10X power glass and scan the face for pitting. There will also be an oil pump conversion that will be required.

Allen B.
Barrett Precision Engines
 
corrosion

Allen Thanks for the reply. So far I've got the cylinders, accessory case and sump removed. When I split the cases this weekend I'll check the tappets like you say. I am planning on sending all the steel parts out for inspection/repair. More questions coming just not on this thread. Hope you'll be there to answer.
Thanks Jim
OKay- just one more question.... why are there so many engine builders in OKlahoma? I'm thinking maybe I should build this engine in a hotel room in OK
 
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