kcameron

Well Known Member
We're all familiar with pumping losses as they apply to an engine's intake and exhaust systems. For instance, we know that we get lower fuel flow if we run WOT and lower RPM vs part throttle and higher RPM (for a given power output). However, I wonder how much thought has been given to air pumping losses within the crankcase.

I did a top overhaul on my IO-360 a couple of years ago. Since I had virtually no prior experience with Lycoming engine internals, I had expected to see into the sump once I removed the cylinders (like it would be on a car or motorcycle engine). Instead, I was struck by how compact and relatively closed the crankcase volume for each cylinder pair appeared to be. There are small air/oil passages beneath each main bearing and an additional small slot into the sump beneath the crank volume for cylinders 3 and 4. I don't have any measurements but my memory (and some pictures I've found on the web) indicate the passages may be small enough to present a significant impediment to air flow.

Over each revolution of an IO-360, the crankcase volume for each pair of pistons varies by 180 ci (cubic inches) between TDC and BDC. In principle, that means that the air passages must vent 180 ci out then 180 ci in on each revolution of the crank (per pair). By comparison, that's four times the air flow ingested through the intake ports. How much power that requires depends on the pressure it takes to pump the air. This is where it gets complicated. There are so many variables (orifice size, air density, crankcase volume, etc) that I haven't been able to get a good handle on the math yet.

One can get an idea of the potential losses by examining a simplified scenario. Let's say my concerns turn out to be valid and the average crankcase delta-P (crankcase pressure difference between piston down-stroke and up-stroke) is 10 psi over an entire revolution at 2700 rpm:

Energy loss per rev per cylinder = 10 psi * 90 ci = 900 inch-pounds = 75 foot-pounds/rev/cyl.
Energy loss per rev for the engine = 75 foot-pounds/rev/cyl * 4 cyl = 300 foot-pounds/rev.
Pumping power loss for the engine = 300 foot-pounds/rev * 2700 rev/min = 810,000 foot-pounds/min = 24.5 hp.

I have no idea how close that scenario is to reality. My Google searches have yielded no indication that anyone else has even considered this loss let alone measured or calculated it. If the average delta-P is even 1/10 of my scenario, it would still be of interest to those trying to wring the most efficiency from their engines. That's especially true for those running higher revs since the power loss is proportional to engine speed cubed.

I'll keep trying to figure out how to estimate the losses from the physics. There are so many variables that I think one would need to take measurements on a running engine to really know what's going on. That wouldn't be too difficult. An oscilloscope and a couple of miniature fast-response pressure probes should do the trick. A test stand or dyno would be best; though it could conceivably be done on an installed engine. Maybe I'll get bored and try it someday.

In my searches, I stumbled across one link that supports my hypothesis. I haven't seen the data myself but apparently aircraft engines become more efficient with altitude. I.e., at a given setting of RPM/MAP/FF, an engine will produce more power at higher altitudes than it does at sea level. Since pumping losses are proportional to density, they will be less than half the sea level value when flying at 25000 feet and could explain this effect.

If it turns out my hypothesis is correct, then the next question is what to do about it. One could enlarge the various air passages but I'm not sure one could make enough difference without overly weakening the crankcase. If the losses are proven someday, then maybe the engine manufacturers could be convinced to produce new crankcase castings with better internal air flow.

Sorry for my long-windedness but I wanted to get my thoughts recorded. Perhaps one of the many knowledgeable people on this forum knows the answer. For all I know it was hashed out and understood long ago.

Kev
 
Think of it a different way:
The adiabatic compression is directly returned as adiabatic expansion to push the pistons back.
At 2500 cycles per minute, there isn't a lot of time for heat loss, so net loss is low. ;)
 
Kevin,
Well done, but it's not a hypothesis. Why do you think some of us are so interested in crankcase evacuators?

The adiabatic compression is directly returned as adiabatic expansion to push the pistons back. At 2500 cycles per minute, there isn't a lot of time for heat loss, so net loss is low.

That's the sealed chamber argument.....but there is no doubt some pumping back and forth between the two crankcase chambers. Plus higher density means increased windage.
 
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Dan;
True, I just thew it in there to add perspective. ;) There is no way the crankcase vent system could handle all that volume at that rate.
To add a bit on the sealed chamber tho- Hot blowby gasses continuously replace the gasses expelled thru the vent...obviously a static condition is attained, which we read as the average crankcase pressure.
I like evacuators.
 
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I'm not sure what you mean by "air passages". For every piston moving down there is one moving up, so the air flow is just back and forth around, over and under, the crankshaft. There are some flow restrictions but there's quite a bit of area.
 
High end auto race engines often use exhaust pulse scavenging to evacuate the crankcase to a fairly high vacuum level to reduce windage and crankcase pumping losses, some have employed engine driven vacuum pumps for the same purpose. I've seen some dyno tests showing 15-30 hp gains on some high revving stuff.

I believe the GM engineers designing the LS V8 engines addressed windage losses and equalizing pressure within the block with "windows" between them.
 
Think of it a different way:
The adiabatic compression is directly returned as adiabatic expansion to push the pistons back.
At 2500 cycles per minute, there isn't a lot of time for heat loss, so net loss is low. ;)

My gut tells me that the air passages are too large to allow much pressure retention between the down-stroke and up-stroke. I don't have any data to support this of course.

Also, with so much surface area of crank, rod, piston, and crankcase, perhap the compression and expansion more closely approximate isothermal conditions rather than adiabatic. That would reduce the losses but without data it's just another big variable that stymies me when I try to compute it.
 
Kevin,
Well done, but it's not a hypothesis. Why do you think some of us are so interested in crankcase evacuators?

Thanks, Dan. Glad to hear that there's general acceptance of effect. Have I missed a thread about evacuators?
 
I'm not sure what you mean by "air passages". For every piston moving down there is one moving up, so the air flow is just back and forth around, over and under, the crankshaft. There are some flow restrictions but there's quite a bit of area.

The crankcase is split into sections of two cylinders apiece. Within each section, there are two crank throws with 180 degrees of rotational separation between them. This causes the piston/rod assemblies of the two cylinders to move outward or inward together. This arrangement is necessary to achieve a reasonable degree of balance.

Lycomings use a main bearing between each of the two-cylinder crankcase sections. The need to provide solid support for the mains is no doubt the reason for the airflow restriction between crankcase sections.

Basically, you're right that the total air volume within the crankcase is constant.
 
I suppose an extreme experimenteur could tap both crank chambers to draw the desired vacuum, and also gauge them.
Some engines have a front crankcase vent, most accessory cases have a crankcase vent for the back chamber.
That could address 'equalizing chamber pressure' referenced by Ross.
I recently got an O-290G real cheap simply to poke around inside and see what's up. It was removed from a T-18. It's got vent connections at both ends.
We removed the rusty cylinders. Now we have an engine to poke around inside :)
I understand it's not exactly the same as an IO-360, but with Lycoming documents and a lump on the bench, one can learn a lot.
MOROSO crankcase evacuation check valves connected to the crossover exhaust, front chamber to the left exhaust, rear chamber to the right exhaust? Maybe overkill? Has anyone tried 2 evacuation check valves?
It would seem the cheapest & lightest form of 'free' pumping as opposed to a gear driven pump.
 
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Evacuator

Kevin, there has been at least 2 threads on this, ill let you search em out. Allan Nimo of Antisplat is selling a separator with an option for the evacuator kit that works with it. It is reportedly worth 8-10 HP on a 360.
The tripping point for some is it requires you to connect the separator drain back to the sump, which some people believe is evil. I'm not in that camp and have his separator connected to my sump, but have not yet tried the evacuator.
I fly a Cozy, and have some concerns about any mod to my exhaust system, since it lives upstream of my prop, unlike you guys who fly with the prop on the wrong end of the plane ;).
Ps, please consider starting a new thread on your experiences with Nye's straight cylinders! I'm really interested in seeing some data on this if you have any.
Tim
Dues current!
 
I suppose an extreme experimenteur could tap both crank chambers to draw the desired vacuum, and also gauge them.
Some engines have a front crankcase vent, most accessory cases have a crankcase vent for the back chamber.
That could address 'equalizing chamber pressure' referenced by Ross.
I recently got an O-290G real cheap simply to poke around inside and see what's up. It was removed from a T-18. It's got vent connections at both ends.
We removed the rusty cylinders. Now we have an engine to poke around inside :)
I understand it's not exactly the same as an IO-360, but with Lycoming documents and a lump on the bench, one can learn a lot.
MOROSO crankcase evacuation check valves connected to the crossover exhaust, front chamber to the left exhaust, rear chamber to the right exhaust? Maybe overkill? Has anyone tried 2 evacuation check valves?
It would seem the cheapest & lightest form of 'free' pumping as opposed to a gear driven pump.

One idea I had was to seal off the existing air/oil passages in the crankcase sections and provide an alternate return path to the sump via a check valve. Within a few dozen revolutions, the pistons would pump the crankcase sections down to 1/2 to 1/3 of ambient pressure. I suspect dealing with the oil would be tricky, though.
 
My old harley Sportster has a crankcase timing valve. It rotates at crankshaft speed, and is open when the pistons are going down. That allows the pistons to pump out the crankcase. Then the rotating valve closes as the pistons go up, creating the vacuum.
I'm thinking the exhaust pulse timing of one crossover pair could be sucking thru the evacuation check valve on a compressing crank chamber?
 
Kevin, there has been at least 2 threads on this, ill let you search em out. Allan Nimo of Antisplat is selling a separator with an option for the evacuator kit that works with it. It is reportedly worth 8-10 HP on a 360.
The tripping point for some is it requires you to connect the separator drain back to the sump, which some people believe is evil. I'm not in that camp and have his separator connected to my sump, but have not yet tried the evacuator.
I fly a Cozy, and have some concerns about any mod to my exhaust system, since it lives upstream of my prop, unlike you guys who fly with the prop on the wrong end of the plane ;).
Ps, please consider starting a new thread on your experiences with Nye's straight cylinders! I'm really interested in seeing some data on this if you have any.
Tim
Dues current!

I did a search on "evacuator" and "evacuation" but can't find anything relevant. Is the search engine broken? It should have at least picked up this thread.
 
Try separator for search topic instead

Lots of links re: cam guard, breather tubes etc. that are of interest to you.
Tim
 
Lots of links re: cam guard, breather tubes etc. that are of interest to you.
Tim

I had forgotten to set the "search entire post" mode. Getting better search results now.

I found an interesting crankcase evacuation method used by RocketBob: link.
He got good results using a normal vacuum pump as a crankcase evacuator.
 
I found an interesting crankcase evacuation method used by RocketBob...He got good results using a normal vacuum pump as a crankcase evacuator.

Smart, as usual. Bob would be getting roughly a 25% crankcase air density reduction....nice. There is some mechanical complexity and as noted a small power cost. I'm only getting around 10% with an exhaust-driven evacuator:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=715571&postcount=19

I suspect if you tap another header pipe with a second reed valve and tee the pair to the breather you can pull the case pressure lower than with a single tap.

About case pumping.....each revolution of the crank would attempt to force air from the front crankcase chamber to the rear crankcase chamber, then back again. The pumped quantity for one rev would equal engine displacement if there was no restriction between the case chambers. Restriction would result in a pressure rise under descending pistons and a pressure decrease under pistons headed for TDC. I think Kevin is correct; you can't model it without knowing the rapidly oscillating pressures, a clue to the actual degree of restriction.

Case pumping isn't the only HP thief. Air density reduction also decreases windage, the power lost to the crank moving air in the case like a really bad fan.

This is all old hat for race engine guys like Ross, who probably just nodded off while reading ;)
 
.... I suspect if you tap another header pipe with a second reed valve and tee the pair to the breather you can pull the case pressure lower than with a single tap.....

So in a 4 into 1 exhaust system, what if you tapped the collector instead of a single pipe?
 
Yep I've put a wet vacuum pump onto the breather and it works well however it interferes with the fuel pump since it is vented to the crankcase. So the solution to that is get rid of it.

Most dry-sump race car engines do exactly this with multiple stage scavenge pumps, and from what I've read some of the Nascar teams have found 1 atmostphere of pressure is the right balance between vacuum and still having enough air to effectively allow splash lubrication. I don't think a wet pump could pull that much vacuum.
 
Yep I've put a wet vacuum pump onto the breather and it works well however it interferes with the fuel pump since it is vented to the crankcase. So the solution to that is get rid of it.

I've got so many questions.

I can see how reducing crankcase pressure would reduce fuel pressure from the mechanical pump. It makes sense that the pump would reference to crankcase pressure. However, I don't see how it can stop the pump from working altogether; at least for a fuel injection pump. My mechanical pump produces 28-29 psi pretty much all the time. If I were to pump the crankcase to a perfect vacuum, I'd still have 13-14 psi which should be enough to run the engine.

Besides, I thought you had a vacuum relief valve in the system. I guess that didn't work well enough? Was that a carbureted engine (with a lower fuel pressure)? Are you saying that the vacuum pump method causes more of a problem compared to an exhaust evacuator? At the same vacuum?

Most dry-sump race car engines do exactly this with multiple stage scavenge pumps, and from what I've read some of the Nascar teams have found 1 atmostphere of pressure is the right balance between vacuum and still having enough air to effectively allow splash lubrication. I don't think a wet pump could pull that much vacuum.

Did you mean 1/2 atmosphere?
 
I put the vacuum relief to keep the pressure regulated in order to get positive fuel pressure. With no relief valve the engine would quit above 1400 or so RPM. I'll try to find the article on ideal vacuum pressure. Carbed setup.

The neat thing about the pump is that once the crankcase is evacuated there is very little horsepower loss at the pump because there is no longer any air to pump. Its the same reason why when you put your hand over the hose end of a shop vac the speed of the motor increases.
 
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So in a 4 into 1 exhaust system, what if you tapped the collector instead of a single pipe?

I wouldn't think there is as much strong positive and negative pressure oscillation in the collector tailpipe as there is in a single cylinder's pipe.

However, Sky Dynamics runs a tap in through the center of the collector cluster, and claims 2" or so if I remember correctly. Adding as tap there might not be easy to do.