[the_other_dougreeves]

As a LSA pilot, my biggest limitation and fear have always been gusty winds. I came across this NTSB narrative while trying to find out what happened to the Evektor that Aviator Air at GPM used to rent. Sadly, the airplane was substantially damaged during a crosswind takeoff.

The narrative (below) seems to confirm my worries about LSA in gusty conditions. The crosswind component during the incident was 8G11, at a 40 deg crosswind. This is above my personal crosswind limitations of 7G10, but just.

Notes:
* 35kt in the Evektor is right at stall speed.
* This is the first NTSB entry for the SportStar

The 6,100-hour airline transport pilot lost control of the tricycle-gear airplane while taking-off from Runway 17. The pilot reported that during takeoff, while the single-engine airplane accelerated through approximately 35 knots, he experienced a strong left crosswind resulting in a 20 to 25 degree weathervane into the wind. The pilot added that he was not able to compensate, even after applying full right rudder, right aileron, and throttle. Subsequently, the airplane went-off the side of the runway. During the runway excursion, the airplane ran over a drainage ditch and the airplane became airborne for approximately 4-5 feet. The airplane finally impacted the ground on the right main landing gear in a nose-low attitude. The right main landing gear and nose landing gear collapsed The airplane came to rest in the upright position on a parallel taxiway. There was no fire. The pilot was not injured and the passenger bumped her arm; however, she did not required medical attention. Both occupants were able to egress the airplane unassisted. The weather at the airport was reported as winds from 210 degrees at 11 knots, gusting to 16 knots, visibility 10 statute miles, clear skies, temperature 32 degrees Celsius, dew point 15 degrees Celsius, with an altimeter setting of 29.87 inches of Mercury.

 

[LettersFromFlyoverCountry]

Bob Miller had something to say about LSA and these conditions in his excellent weekly newsletter a few weeks ago. Check this issue.

 

[westexflyboy]

Distractions

This doesn't sound like a limitation of the airplane or LSA in general, or a crosswind problem to me. A dustless dust devil perhaps? That hazard could affect larger GA singles. While I understand it's not really fair to judge from an incomplete narrative, I'll just say that any of us could be subject to distraction.

Chase Snodgrass
http://flybigbend.com

 

[the_other_dougreeves]

This doesn't sound like a limitation of the airplane or LSA in general, or a crosswind problem to me. A dustless dust devil perhaps? That hazard could affect larger GA singles. While I understand it's not really fair to judge from an incomplete narrative, I'll just say that any of us could be subject to distraction.

True - without more information, it's hard to know what the root cause of the incident was. However, I guess my general point is that landing LSA in even mildly gusty winds can be challenging. There is also a big difference between how different LSA handle crosswinds, and I'm interested in how the -12 will do.

I can't compare LSA to Cessnas/Cirri/etc because I haven't flown them.

 

[hecilopter]

Interesting

how the report states "experienced a strong LEFT crosswind" when the reported winds were 210 at 11 knots and he was taking off runway 17......

 

[rv6ejguy]

The lower the stall speed to some degree, the more effect a crosswind has. An F104 is not bothered a lot by a 40 knot crosswind. A plane with a 38 knot stall speed will be. Rudder and aileron authority come into it but when you have the wing almost touching the runway and you are still drifting, something bad is going to happen if you touch down.

Takeoff wise- Just don't. I think the CT limit at 90 degrees is only something like 12 knots. Light aircraft- light winds. Is there a reason you really need to be taking off in a 20 knot crosswind?

 

[DanH]

Doug, I just don't grasp your concern. LSA regs are founded, more or less, on J-3 Cub (and similar) operating parameters. There is nothing new about the wing loadings. There are probably some new designs that don't handle very well in some aspect, but that means you have a miserable airplane, not a miserable class of airplanes.

Which is not to say LSA's are foolproof. Local experience says the surest way to get back a bent ultralight or LSA is to hand the keys to an experienced pilot with no experience in that class. They are not hard to fly, but they are different to fly.

The last experiment involved a guy who owned a Stearman, a Citabria, and a Lance, and flew them all very well. Totaled a Kolb Ultrastar on his second landing attempt. We told not to start the flare 10 feet high <g>

 

[N908RV]

LSA = Kite like qualities

Doug, I just don't grasp your concern. LSA regs are founded, more or less, on J-3 Cub (and similar) operating parameters. <g>

Exactly. Let's revisit that wind again. 11 G 16 knots and we know how accurate AWOS's are. I find them usually to be a little on the optomistic (low) side myself.

In my RV-8 I have landed in a 60 degree 18G24 knot and it handled it fine. Was not a fun landing due to the constant gusting, but managable. Would I have flown my old J-3 under those conditions - absolutely not.

And I don't think folks can expect regular lightplane x-wind performance out of a light sport plane. It's not that the design is necessarily bad, but like everything it has it's limits and you have to respect them. Some LSA aircraft will perform better than others under those x-wind circumstances just like any light plane.

 

[clucier]

Crosswinds and winds in general with LSA

I am flying an Evektor at my school. Took off a few weeks ago with calm winds and a calm forecast. After a few hours in the practice area and back to the airport ended up doing a landing with 9G19 direct crosswind. Wasn't fun but wasn't overly difficult either. FYI max demonstrated for the Sportstar is 10K.
my instructor subsequently increased my crosswind limitation to 9K so I guess I handled it ok.

Been out on several windy days and frankly you get beet up a lot. I have no idea how anybody flies LSA in Kansas.

 

[David-aviator]

.....Been out on several windy days and frankly you get beet up a lot. I have no idea how anybody flies LSA in Kansas.

Or any other light airplane for that matter (not necessarily a LSA in Kansas).

Unless there is a dire need to go somewhere, why go out and get beat up? It simply is no fun.

There was a time when I did it just to prove I could do it but those days are in the past and long gone. The turbulence and gusts are so bad some days, landing into a direct head wind can be a significant challenge.

It is ok to set personal cross wind limits, but wind reporting systems are not all that reliable. I've learned to sense when it is ridiculous to fly - and simply don't do it - it doesn't matter what the reports are.

 

[David Paule]

On airplanes like the RV-12, with the prop in front turning clockwise as viewed from the cockpit, you need right rudder on take-off to correct for torque and P-factor.

That means that some of your available right rudder control power is already committed, even without any crosswind.

And that means that a left crosswind is the hardest direction to correct for because there's not much more right rudder available.

If it's a direct crosswind you might be better off taking off in the other direction. In fact, if the runway's long enough you might be better off in the other direction even with a slight tailwind component.

 

[clucier]

Personal Limits

I have been flying off and on for a while and just recently got back into it. Been fighting the comments from people who think that just because they have a PPL that they are a real pilot and a sport pilot is not.

To me it is all about personal limitations. Frankly handling any crosswind is 99% technique and experience and 1% airplane until you broach that magical line that the airplane just can't handle.

Personally I like having a set crosswind limitation for two reasons, 1.) I don't like getting jostled around, its just no fun for the pilot or the passenger and 2.) it is one of a number of items that makes my flying decision for the day.

I soloed in May and then a student crashed the Remos I was flying so the school switched to the Evektor. Both have very diferent crosswind techniques and characteristics. I resigned myself to "redoing" 4-5 hours in the Evektor for familiarization then doing my "2nd" first solo, after 2.5 hours my instructor who I think is highly competent (through demonstrating her piloting skills) signed me off, for four straight days I showed up at 6 AM and we went out to do the requisite touch and go's before solo, each day the wind picked up to the point she did not want me to solo. I asked to remain in the pattern with her and we practiced crosswind landings day after day. Yes I burned 8 extra hours and did not solo but I also gained a lot of confidence in my ability to handle crosswinds from all directions and varying speeds. As a result she bumped up my limitation.

One of my friends asked why I continued to burn hours on the logbook when I should have been headed to a check ride, frankly getting the experience was invaluable to my confidence and honing technique.

All that said I still will set a limitation that will be on my "weather checklist" if the winds are forecast higher than my own limit I get to sleep in (or starting next week, pull more rivets).Regardless of what the plane is "capable" of.

That brings me back around to the comment in my first paragraph, I CHOSE Sport Pilot for a simple reason, I hate flying in weather, the idea of flying in terrain in the SW at night keeps me awake at night, I live in AZ so its usually not a problem, LSA is more affordable than PPL (given the context that I don't want to fly planes older than me which means new which is why I am building a 12). I don't need to have a $100K alphabet soup of ratings to prove anything to anyone, I get a grin pulling back on the stick and leaving the runway no matter what I am flying in.

And yes I will wave to all the Skyhawk friends as I pass them on the way to breakfast (even though I am flying a lawn mower as they like to say).

And yes I finally did "re-solo", Solo Cross country and checkride prep next week. I will have 30 hours or more in the log book by the time I test but still cost a lot less than PPL and I think I had just as much fun getting there.

As told my instructor, no rush on anything at anytime I just like to get into the air.

 

[rgmwa]

I was always taught that every aircraft has two crosswind speed limitations:

1. the plane's
2. the pilot's

As a low time pilot, I always keep that in the back of my mind. So far, so good.

 

[dick seiders]

Light airplanes (RV12) are indeed a different breed to fly. On two occasions in the past two weeks I have landed in crosswinds that got my full attention. Landing on 28 at 9a1 covington, Ga the winds in both cases had picked up after takeoff and were 12g16 out of 10-20. I expected to have my hands full but was a little surprised that full left rudder was not enough to line up on the centerline of 28. I made the landings with only 1/2 flaps due to the gusts and had to dip the right wing substantiallly to keep it mostly on track. After touchdown in both cases had to maintain direction with rudder and (mostly) brakes. (wasn't real pretty, but it did the job). A bit unnerving as I seldom had this problem with my RV6A. I learned that an airplane 400# lighter than my 6A along with the lower stall speed is a bit more challenging in these conditions. RV12 is a great airplane , in my opinion, but the comfortable low stall speed has it's limitations in gusty crosswinds. We need to fly this fine airplane with more consideration of the winds and what they can do,
Dick Seiders (30 hrs and still love it).

 

[the_other_dougreeves]

It's interesting to see this thread revived.

Since I originally started this thread, I have another 150 hours in the CT in my logbook and a lot more crosswind experience. The airplane does fine in 10-12kt crosswinds - plant the upwind wheel and settle it down from there. Where it stumbles is in gusty crosswinds. With the light weight and light wing loading of the CT (and other LSA), crosswind gusts can be a real bear and requires a high level of pilot skill. I know several CT pilots who have landed in 25G35 conditions and 12G18 crosswind components, so it's clearly not a limitation of the airplane as others have noted, but a limit of the pilot. I am clearly not extracting the most out of the airplane since others can make it perform better than I can. Of course, you could say the same about Hannes Arch because he didn't win the Red Bull championship this year, coming in second.

Having landed a 172 and a CT at the same airport in the same gusty conditions (about 40 mins apart), I can say that the CT is harder to land when the wind is up. The DA40 is similarly much easier in the wind (wow, the landing gear in that airplane is STOUT). CT owners say that the airplane keeps you honest - no falling asleep or faking it when it gets windy.

IMHO, one of the solutions is to keep the weight up - keep the tanks full. CT pilots tend to use ballast to keep the CG away from the front end of the envelope, resulting in much better control in the flare. The difference in how the airplane behaves with another 120lb of fuel in the wings and/or 180lb in the pax seat is amazing. You get higher wing loading for a smoother ride in the bumps, higher landing speeds and less deviation in the gusts. Flying at 150lb under gross means a lot more in an airplane with a 1320lb MGTW than one with 1800lb MGTW.

TODR

 

[aerhed]

The Helio Couriers are not "light", but have really low stall speed and low wing loading. A huge number of them have wrecked/looped in crosswinds. If you look at stall speed vs wind correction angle it starts to become more apparent. Add in gusty conditions and you start getting your nose pointing all over the place. Think about a 30k cross gust with a 30k stall speed and what your airplane will look like in relation to the runway in flare. Big eyes for sure.

 

[Peterk]

Ct's

You are correct Doug. CT's do not like crosswinds. The RV12 on the other hand is amazing! I've done 18/20 direct x-winds. I've had friends of mine that fly Glasairs do the same xwind landings in mine. As long as the rudder will keep you lined up with the runway...touching down is the easy part. Especially since its not a taildragger.

 

[LarryT]

Automatic Slats?

The Helio Couriers are not "light", but have really low stall speed and low wing loading. A huge number of them have wrecked/looped in crosswinds. If you look at stall speed vs wind correction angle it starts to become more apparent. Add in gusty conditions and you start getting your nose pointing all over the place. Think about a 30k cross gust with a 30k stall speed and what your airplane will look like in relation to the runway in flare. Big eyes for sure.

I'm not sure the automatic slats on the HC are necessarily a wonderful design choice. Slats come out = extra lift; then an xwind gust really picks up the upwind wing. I think it would be very demanding to adjust control inputs to changes in lift that are beyond one's control.

I am sure there are folks on this site that know more about this than I do - most of my experience regarding uncommanded inputs comes from auto racing, where the toe steer designed into the street car has to be eliminated by "bump steering" or the race track version handles like a pig.

LarryT

 

[Gagarin737]

About 2 years ago we had around 65-70kts of wind in the Netherlands and we were still operating the B737 from Amsterdam. When we were standing at the runway we had 45 kts steady! x-wind and a lot of water on the runway. X-wind limit for the B737 during take-off is 25kts with good braking action. With all this water on the runway we expected medium braking action and that will give a max x-wind off only 15kts.
We left the runway because off the x-wind but one other (big) airliner accepted the runway and started their take-off roll. As soon as the A320 rotated he veered to the downwind side of the runway. Just after liftoff he was already flying over the grass. If he had an engine failure at that point he would crash for sure.
The point of this story: why would you even try to fly a RV-12 off 1320lbs with 15kts x-wind while a B737 with 160000lbs has a limit of just 25kts. With 15kts you have no margins at all (or maybe I'm just a chicken).

 

[JonJay]

If you have wind, you WILL have a cross wind.

It may not be while you are taking off, but you have to get your airplane to the end of the runway first. Although my Aeronca L3 was not LSA, it behaved much like one with its huge high wing and light airframe. The Army manual stated that the aircraft was not to be operated when winds exceeded 25mph. It said nothing about cross wind component. ( I always ruled "if I run out of rudder in a full side slip, find another runway").
The 25mph limitation was there as you simply could not safely taxi. I was caught a few times in high wind conditions. The landing was a piece of cake. Getting it back to the hangar was a nightmare of sideways crabbing, differential braking, and hoping the next time the oleo hit the up stop that the tire was not going to follow it on over!
The RV12, being a low wing nose dragger, may not have the same self limiting aspects. My 6 does not.
I suspect different LSA's would behave differently in this regard also.
Does anybody know; does the 12 have anything in the POH about maximum operating wind velocity? Do other LSA's?

 

[the_other_dougreeves]

You are correct Doug. CT's do not like crosswinds. The RV12 on the other hand is amazing! I've done 18/20 direct x-winds. I've had friends of mine that fly Glasairs do the same xwind landings in mine. As long as the rudder will keep you lined up with the runway...touching down is the easy part. Especially since its not a taildragger.

The CT is fine in crosswinds. What it doesn't like is gusty crosswinds. I have significant (> 20 hr) in three different modern LSAs, and none of them were happy in gusty crosswinds. Perhaps the -12 is different somehow.

TODR

 

[Peterk]

The point of this story: why would you even try to fly a RV-12 off 1320lbs with 15kts x-wind while a B737 with 160000lbs has a limit of just 25kts. With 15kts you have no margins at all.

For the same reason I wouldn't worry about walking my 170lb body into a 15kt x-wind. The 12 is experimental with a wonderful rudder. It has a crosswind component of 11kts. That is obviously a demonstrated (successful) landing. No one keeps landing aircraft into higher and higher crosswinds until they crash. As mentioned earlier, if the rudder will keep it down the runway, why wouldn't you land? The RV12 is not just a toy airplane. It is a genuine 120 kt x-country airplane that burns 4 to 5 gal an hour of car gas. To ignore learning the envelope of anything you fly is not only dangerous, it ignores the utility of the aircraft and takes away the inspiration of the designer.

 

[Gagarin737]

To ignore learning the envelope of anything you fly is not only dangerous, it ignores the utility of the aircraft and takes away the inspiration of the designer.

What's wrong (and dangerous) in sticking to the values mentioned in the POH?
11kts x-wind is a very nice value for such a small plane. If there is more x-wind I'll buy my burger somewhere else.
Most off us are no test pilots and flying at the edge doesn't give me a good feeling. Sorry for being dangerous (but stil alive with 12000 hours)....

 

[GDS]

I am based at Big Bear Airport, L35, FE=6750. We're surrounded by 8000' ridges. Gusty crosswinds are fairly common here. I've got 100 hours of local tailwheel time and only 6 hours of RV12 time. In 6 hours I feel as comfortable landing the RV12 as I do the Citabria.

 

[Peterk]

What's wrong (and dangerous) in sticking to the values mentioned in the POH?
11kts x-wind is a very nice value for such a small plane. If there is more x-wind I'll buy my burger somewhere else.
Most off us are no test pilots and flying at the edge doesn't give me a good feeling. Sorry for being dangerous (but stil alive with 12000 hours)....

Experimental aircraft building and flying in the U.S. is nothing like U.S. Part 121 certifications. In an experimental aircraft (including the RV12) you are indeed a test pilot. Consider the PAP requirements that require you to stall your aircraft in all configurations, noting the airspeeds/temps/etc and wing-drop direction. There are no published limits to "save you". I applaud your 12,000 hours flying souls safely. To fly an RV12 safely you must push each edge of the envelope and publish the numbers for the manufacturer (Van's Aircraft) that is listed on the data plate. Not to do so is dangerous...to the success of each flight...and to your liability should you chose to ignore Van's direction. Will the plane pull excessive g's?..Van's has said no aerobatics. Will the plane come out of an accidental spin? Van's has tested that for you and the answer is yes. Will it flare at 50 feet like a B-737...no, but you won't know that until you try it.

 

[Bill Dicus]

LSA and x-winds

There is no direct relationship between take off weight and cross wind capability. The Boeing 707 for example has a low crosswind limit partially due to risk of dragging an outboard engine. The control authority and forces, pace of application and wing loading are those factors which seem important to me (as well as configuration). If your plane has a low wing loading and stall speed, you can often land at an angle to the runway (touching down on the downwind side) giving less x-wind component. Roll out in a big wind is quite short is such a plane. I had to land a 150 in 55kts 30 degrees off the runway. It was almost a hover; the airplane could be maintained on the ground with power until FBO personnel grabbed the struts and walked it in. As previously mentioned here the Pitts S-2A has no problem with 40 kt direct x-winds with gusts; its aerobatic max weight is 1500 lbs and it's a taildragger. Perhaps reasonable that each pilot find his comfort level in a given airplane by gradually increasing his crosswind exposure at a field where several runways are available. If he/she doesn't feel good with the way things are going on the crosswind runway he can switch to a runway more nearly aligned with the wind. Clearly we all have somewhat different risk tolerance and comfort levels. Just my 2 cents - please don't flame! Could others chime in here as well?

 

[KatieB]

Does anybody know; does the 12 have anything in the POH about maximum operating wind velocity? Do other LSA's?

Our Jabiru S-LSAs have no published surface wind limitation and a 15 knot max demonstrated crosswind component. I have landed them in more with no issues. The ailerons, rudder and elevator all maintain excellent control response until well below flying speed... and this helps a LOT. You can put the airplane where you need it to be without being blown away. The key, then, is learning how much control input will make the airplane do what you want, when you want it. This can be a tricky thing to learn in LSA, especially if you are used to flying heavier airplanes with more inertia in the landing flare. LSA's are certainly NOT toy airplanes; I think they require more stick-and-rudder skill than most spam cans. Transition training with an experienced light-sport CFI will go a LONG way toward safety in any conditions, especially crosswinds... I don't care how much flight time you have! (I used to teach transition training in Lightnings and Jabirus... certainly not the most fun I've ever had in an airplane... )

 

[Gagarin737]

The hours were a bad example and english isn't my native language and I should have used some smilies and I was not trying to shoot anyone but...
You made me realize that most probably I'm not the right guy to do the test flying with the RV-12. I guess the test cards will make me do things that I'm not comfortable with. I still like to build/assemble the plane and that was the main reason to start with the project.
Other question; what planes readily available comes near the performance/handling of the RV-12 to make some hours on a light (sports) plane? (DA20?)

 

[Peterk]

The hours were a bad example and english isn't my native language and I should have used some smilies and I was not trying to shoot anyone but...
You made me realize that most probably I'm not the right guy to do the test flying with the RV-12. I guess the test cards will make me do things that I'm not comfortable with. I still like to build/assemble the plane and that was the main reason to start with the project.
Other question; what planes readily available comes near the performance/handling of the RV-12 to make some hours on a light (sports) plane? (DA20?)

The RV 12 controls are most similar to other RV's (only lighter...it is the lightest one). That said, any light aircraft will help a bunch. I flew a Champ the whole time I was building mine after coming out of the regular high performance general aviation singles/twins etc. LSA's don't have the wing loading so they fly different (not worse...just different) and land different. The most difficult thing about the 12 is getting it to come down! All insurance companies recommend transition training to light aircraft and of course Katie was such an instructor. She can probably recommend the best aircraft but I would think any light aircraft would do the trick. Didn't mean to flame on you, apologize for the "attitude". Your english is fine, my dutch is awful. You will love the 12.

 

[KatieB]

All insurance companies recommend transition training to light aircraft and of course Katie was such an instructor. She can probably recommend the best aircraft but I would think any light aircraft would do the trick.

I'll defer this one to the pilots who've flown RV-12s... but yeah, find the lightest thing you can rent or borrow. Some quirky little Rotax-powered LSA would be a good thing to start with... then at least you'd have the Rotax experience. Ideally you'd want to fly an RV-12, of course.

The Feds should really get off their a** and start authorizing people to use their own RV-12s for commercial transition training. They really can't complain about the accident rate of Experimentals until they do at least that!! But, this is beyond the scope of the Crosswinds thread...

The easiest transition flight I've ever had is with a pilot who had a lot of Kitfox tailwheel time. He taught me a lot of things about flying that day! And, he STILL didn't assume anything about his own skills, and wanted me to teach him what I knew about flying the Lightning. The very light weight, responsive controls, and rudder-oriented nature of the Kitfox had refined this pilot's skills to the point that the Lightning posed no problems.

 

[clucier]

LSA Training

This is why I did all my current training in LSA and renting LSA until the 12 gets done.

Each one is a little different but going up in a plane weighing 1100 pounds is a lot different than most GA planes. I relly like the fact that you feel it ll the way though of course that makes for some fun flights in the deserts around AZ.

I don't know a lot yet but I feel like I am a better pilot because of getting a lot of marginal wind experience in such a light plane, you really have to know how to use the controls, as my instructor said you can't fake it. I think you really have to be a better seat of the pants flier to fly LSA when its windy and in other ways.

As an example most LSA just want to keep flying if your not set up right for approach you will be landing way long or going around if your not good with the slip.

 

[Peterk]

This is why I did all my current training in LSA and renting LSA until the 12 gets done.

Each one is a little different but going up in a plane weighing 1100 pounds is a lot different than most GA planes. I relly like the fact that you feel it ll the way though of course that makes for some fun flights in the deserts around AZ.

I don't know a lot yet but I feel like I am a better pilot because of getting a lot of marginal wind experience in such a light plane, you really have to know how to use the controls, as my instructor said you can't fake it. I think you really have to be a better seat of the pants flier to fly LSA when its windy and in other ways.

As an example most LSA just want to keep flying if your not set up right for approach you will be landing way long or going around if your not good with the slip.

Your point is not missed by the insurance companies. As the data base on LSA accidents begins to materialize, most them have discovered exactly what you have mentioned and are seriously considered a transition requirement.