Loran

Yeah - We use it all the time in our Lance. KLN88 is a super unit and very accurate. I'll miss Loran.
 
For aviation back-up to GPS, there's no reason why VOR receivers can't be designed that would automatically scan frequencies for signals, and have similar displays as GPS receivers.

But for some reason they aren't made that way. I wonder why not? if multiple signals can be found, accuracy ought to be nearly as good as GPS.

Of course that's only for aircraft. The signals are usually blocked by terrain or ground objects for surface applications.

David Paule
 
FAA wants to cut the ground station maintenance cost

At one time I used to maintain ground based navigational aids and the cost is high. At one time we had three guys based K-2 Air Base in Taegu to maintain one NDB (Foxtrot Hotel) around the clock seven days a week. Even at Airman's pay it is expensive. I hate to see the ground based nav systems go for a lot or reasons but it is going to happen.

Bob Axsom
 
What it will take is some event that takes GPS down and the decision to kill LORAN will be realized as foolish.
 
So something evil

happens to GPS. What are we all going to due? Run to Walmart to buy a handheld Loran receiver? The only who has on so far is a Lance with its acres of panel space. I had this discussion about 10 years ago. The Loran and the ADF were just taking up space in the panel. Updates for the receiver were not available. Most Lorans are piled up in the back of peoples hangers. As of now it would be a case of Loran talking and nobody listening. The better solution would be to harden up Gps to render it less vulnerable. No doubt the military has something as backup.
 
Bob Axsom said:
At one time I used to maintain ground based navigational aids and the cost is high. At one time we had three guys based K-2 Air Base in Taegu to maintain one NDB (Foxtrot Hotel) around the clock seven days a week. Even at Airman's pay it is expensive. I hate to see the ground based nav systems go for a lot or reasons but it is going to happen.

Bob Axsom
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Bob, I completely agree with your reasoning here, but I've long wondered about the cost/benefit analysis behind shutting down the handful of LORAN stations.

It seems to me (and I'm just an interested, but uninformed layman) that maintaining the current network of enroute and terminal navaids is terribly expensive, compared to a half-dozen LORAN stations.

Why do we still maintain enroute VORs? my guess is that we could decommission all of them, buy and install GPS receivers for every airplane in the US that lacks one, and be saving money within a year. Leave the ILS equipment at big airports until a critical mass of the fleet is WAAS-approach equipped and then kill that too.

VORs are effective Navaids, and better than the A-N ranges they replaced, but they are equally obsolete compared with modern technology.

most of us are proficient with VORS, but there was a time when serious IFR pilots were proficient in ADF approaches, too. Anybody here still want to claim that? How about a localizer back course ? ;)

LORAN, on the other hand, requires no adjustment in technique at all. It works just like GPS, except that is is less accurate, although accurate enough for non-precision approaches.

After my devious master plan is implemented, and all the short and medium range ground based navaids are gone, we can talk about VHF comms.
 
Chris, the problem is that LORAN was relegated to inferior status once it was slated for decommissioning in the Federal Radionavigation Plan ten years or so ago (maybe even 15).

Who will develop combined GPS/LORAN units if LORAN is going away?
 
If GPS was never invented, Loran would rank as one of the best, if not the best, inventions of all time for aircraft.

Mark
 
Not really all that familiar with LORAN but a friend of mine who is not only a great pilot but also an avid sailor was big time upset about it, not for flying but for sea navigation...:confused: don't know about that either!!:)
 
We have a loran in our cherokee, it actually worked real well. It worked alot like the GX-55 GPS that was designed to replace it. I just took the GX-55 out of our C-180 last summer, looks like it will be going in the Cherokee:)

Maybe it was the avionics guys stimulus package??
 
Let's not forget that the Russians have a similar system to GPS called Glonass, I think, that's either operational or nearly so. And the Europeans are hoping to put up a similar system called Galileo.

A friend of mine runs a company that sells GPS products for certain specific customers, 'nuff said. His test plane has a system that uses both the Glonass and the GPS system. I don't know if his operational systems do, but wouldn't be at all surprised.

Of course any alternative system needs receivers in the hands if the users to be effective.

David Paule
 
Well, I guess the price of my KLN88 just bottomed-out! It's pristine (never-installed) if anybody wants it.....I'll make you a swingin' deal. :D
 
So-long Northstar

Jeff A said:
Well, I guess the price of my KLN88 just bottomed-out! It's pristine (never-installed) if anybody wants it.....I'll make you a swingin' deal. :D
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Jeff,

I don't want to lowball you, but I won't give a penny more than $2,500.00 :)

I just delivered my Bonanza to its new owner a few months ago with a Northstar Loran. I guess that was good timing. I flew behind the Northstar for 12 years and never lost the signal. Not in heavy rain. Never. I'm kind of sorry to see them go.
 
zzapp said:
happens to GPS. What are we all going to due? Run to Walmart to buy a handheld Loran receiver? The only who has on so far is a Lance with its acres of panel space. I had this discussion about 10 years ago. The Loran and the ADF were just taking up space in the panel. Updates for the receiver were not available. Most Lorans are piled up in the back of peoples hangers. As of now it would be a case of Loran talking and nobody listening. The better solution would be to harden up Gps to render it less vulnerable. No doubt the military has something as backup.
Click to expand...


We could always use AM stations, I guess. Or maybe this could be the resurgence of the old lighted airways. :)

Seriously, though...which would be easier for some nutjob group of anti-American troglodytes to pull off? Launching some anti-satellite satellites and taking down the GPS constellation, or driving some trucks through the gates of a few LORAN transmitter sites (you'd only have to destroy the Main sites, no? No primary signal means no LOPs).

I'm with the poster above...I've only flown one plane with a LORAN-based nav radio, a Lance. The last thing I'm worried about when flying nowadays is the loss of the GPS constellation.
 
CNN said:
Killing Loran-C will save the government $190 million over five years, Obama said.
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So, the cost will be perhaps a 777's worth over 5 years, or maybe $40 million a year. I'd be willing to bet the Whitehouse spends more than that on toilet paper annually.

I'll freely admit having never flown anything equipped with a LORAN system, but for the Seppo's, it seems to be a case of "Cutting off the nose to spite the face" by decommisioning a system that is capable of providing a backup to GPS, which, no matter how you look at it, is a vulnerable system...
 
KRviator said:
So, the cost will be perhaps a 777's worth over 5 years, or maybe $40 million a year. I'd be willing to bet the Whitehouse spends more than that on toilet paper annually.

I'll freely admit having never flown anything equipped with a LORAN system, but for the Seppo's, it seems to be a case of "Cutting off the nose to spite the face" by decommisioning a system that is capable of providing a backup to GPS, which, no matter how you look at it, is a vulnerable system...
Click to expand...

I say good riddance to Loran. As previously mentioned...................who's going to go out & equip every airplane with a Loran receiver, the day something supposably happens to the GPS system? Just being realistic here...

Yep, I'm a moving map GPS fanatic. Have been using them since the early 90's when they became available. Currently have a Garmin 696 with XM weather in my RV, and wouldn't even think of installing some sort of Loran unit. You won't see a ADF anytime soon..........in my cockpit. :D

And BTW, I won't miss the VOR stations much either !

L.Adamson ---- RV6A
 
Do you have Loran in your RV?

Just wondering............

How many of us will being removing Loran from our RV's to gain more panel space? Does anybody even have one in their RV?

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
GPS

Not trying to turn this thread political, but does killing the US space program jeopardize the GPS system at all? Certainly doesn't help it any.....

I hate to think that we are 100% dependant on the Russian space program to maintain our aviation navigation system.

CDE
 
Old School

L.Adamson said:
Just wondering............

How many of us will being removing Loran from our RV's to gain more panel space? Does anybody even have one in their RV?

L.Adamson --- RV6A
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Yes....and Yes! I have a panel mounted Apollo in my RV-6. I used it for a year flying around Ohio, and on my flight out to CA (in concert with my G-196).
I am taking it out since I am indeed looking to improve my available panel space.
Anyone want to make me an offer for my antique nav system??
 
cropdusterengineer said:
Not trying to turn this thread political, but does killing the US space program jeopardize the GPS system at all? Certainly doesn't help it any.....

I hate to think that we are 100% dependant on the Russian space program to maintain our aviation navigation system.

CDE
Click to expand...
Terminating MANNED space flight will not necessarily jeopardize the GPS system....but war will almost certainly affect the integrity of the GPS system. To an enemy with the technological means to do so, it only makes perfect sense to neutralize not only the vast private commercial uses of GPS technology that our economy now depends upon, but also the navigation, communication, and intelligence gathering capability of a powerful adversary. Relatively cost effective, the result of such an attack would be to render our vast array of high tech weapons and their delivery systems virtually useless. Backed up with expert testimony, Walter Boyne makes that rather compelling argument in the April 2010 edition of Flight Journal. Well worth the read.

If it ever comes to that, the average RV flying private pilot has got a whole lot more to worry about than chasing a $200 hamburger.
 
Ron Lee said:
CDE, if you mean the NASA manned spaceflight capability...no impact to GPS.
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Don't get me wrong, I am a HUGE fan of private companies doing most of the heavy lifting, but didn't the NASA program develop most (if not all) of the technologies that made the GPS system possible?

Isn't the GPS system in the interest of national security, as well as the personnel freedoms we enjoy (the quest for the $200 burger)?

The NASA program is not only a symbol of American exceptionalism, it also allowed us to develop a really nifty way to navigate from one place to the next!

CDE
 
No GPS was not a NASA creation. It was a brainchild of DoD and in particular the US Air Force.
 
Other than some experiments using GPS signals for characterizing the upper atmosphere, NASA has nothing to do with GPS. The GPS constellation is managed by the GPS JPO out of USAF SMC. The constellation utilizes medium earth orbits, far beyond the capacity of any manned servicing missions.
 
I should clarify something...there are many NASA programs that *use* GPS, both on the ground and on orbit, but the GPS system wasn't developed by NASA. It actually was sort of a follow on to TRANSIT (USN).
 
Loran C

For years I have lived in the shadow of the Carolina Beach Loran transmitter. At one home I owned I could hear the wind wailing through the guy wires on the 4 monster towers that made up the net not more that 500 yards away.
I have never actually used loran to navigate, but I am always concerned when alternatives of any kind are put to pasture.
I will say though...since the transmitter has been shut down, I no longer need reading glasses...

Regards,
Chris
 
Flying Scotsman said:
Other than some experiments using GPS signals for characterizing the upper atmosphere, NASA has nothing to do with GPS. The GPS constellation is managed by the GPS JPO out of USAF SMC. The constellation utilizes medium earth orbits, far beyond the capacity of any manned servicing missions.
Click to expand...

The point I was trying to make (that I obviously didn't make very effectively) was that NASA developed the technology for lifting payloads into orbit. GPS would not be possible had that technology not been developed. Whether or not NASA has anything at all to do with maintenance of the current GPS constellation, without the US space program I'm pretty sure there would be no GPS technology.

Perhaps the private sector will take over where NASA will leave off next year?

CDE
 
cropdusterengineer said:
The point I was trying to make (that I obviously didn't make very effectively) was that NASA developed the technology for lifting payloads into orbit. GPS would not be possible had that technology not been developed. Whether or not NASA has anything at all to do with maintenance of the current GPS constellation, without the US space program I'm pretty sure there would be no GPS technology.

Perhaps the private sector will take over where NASA will leave off next year?

CDE
Click to expand...

The private sector has *already* taken over for ELVs. Orbital Sciences provides Taurus and Pegasus LVs, ULA provides Deltas and Atlases. NASA contracts for the launch *service*, which is provided by private companies. They provide the vehicle, the service and the team to put a spacecraft into a particular orbit (target trajectory).

NASA neither builds nor actually operates the boosters...never takes title the LV, either.
 
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