Garage Guy

Garage Guy

Well Known Member
Recently I was looking at a 6 for sale, and I noticed a few loose rivets on the underside of the wing. By "loose" I mean noticeably hanging down, and I could easily get a fingernail under the factory head and wiggle it around a bit. I pointed these out to the seller, and he said you just have to drill those out, and replace them with monel blind rivets, and then he showed me places where several had already been done.

My question is, how do rivets get that loose? Were they just badly set to start with, or is this something that can happen over time? Airframe has about 1000 hours. It looked like some rivets on the top of the wing were smoking, too. How worried should I be?

--GG
 
Garage Guy said:
Recently I was looking at a 6 for sale, and I noticed a few loose rivets on the underside of the wing. By "loose" I mean noticeably hanging down, and I could easily get a fingernail under the factory head and wiggle it around a bit. I pointed these out to the seller, and he said you just have to drill those out, and replace them with monel blind rivets, and then he showed me places where several had already been done.

My question is, how do rivets get that loose? Were they just badly set to start with, or is this something that can happen over time? Airframe has about 1000 hours. It looked like some rivets on the top of the wing were smoking, too. How worried should I be?

--GG
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Bad to start with. See if you can get at them to reset them, or drill & replace. Inspect the rest of the plane carefully.
 
I haven't ever seen any loose rivets. Well, not that loose. Either the airframe has been but under some stress or those rivets weren't set right.
 
Maybe after 1000 hours a few smokers. Maybe. But loose rivets tell you a couple of things: little care went into the building of it and inspections have been haphazard. I'd walk away.

Bob Kelly
 
Were they countersunk or dimpled? If they are dimpled and smoking RUN! If they are countersunk at all I wouldn't buy it.
 
videobobk said:
little care went into the building of it
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That's the thing that made me wonder what to make of the rivets: overall the build quality appears quite high. Good fit and shape to the panels, nothing that looks like a mistake to me. Not what you'd call a rough plane at all.
 
There is one place that is known to develop smoking rivets on the 6, and that is on the cockpit bottom skin (under your feet.) Significant rivet smoking anywhere other than this is an indicator of serious problems. I wouldn't touch it.
 
LOOSE rivets?!?!?!?

Dang, I didn't think these things would get "Loose"! Not hanging down loose anyway. If you can get a finger nail under the edge of a 3-3.5 on the skin of the wing, it seems to me that there is only about a fingernail's width left holding the rivet in place. I'm not positive but I don't think that meets standards.

So, I think I know why the plane is being sold.
 
DaX said:
Anyone care to explain to the ignorant guy (me) what a "smoking rivet" is?
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Smoking rivets are caused by the rivet being just loose enough to cause chaffing of the aluminum leaving a black residue trail aft-wards. This is pretty common on the belly of the early -6s due to the stresses put on the floor by the floor mounted rudder/brake pedals. If these occur other places on the airframe, I would be concerned.
 
Was it the pedals? I thought it was vibration from the airflow around the belly scoop and exhaust. In any case, I put my skins on with Proseal to prevent that. Anyway, I've seen at least one RV that, to me, had seriously under-driven/squeezed rivets but none of them were pulling through. I'd think there's a serious problem if this is happening. Caveat Emptor.
 
If it were me I would keep shopping and give this on a pass . It would make me wonder about loose rivets that I couldn't see . Wouldn't bet my life that it is built correctly.
 
Get a Second Opinion

If you really like this plane, get a second opinion - a project inspection from an EAA Tech Counselor. It won't cost you anything, and they are required to be fair and objective. Go to EAA's website to find a Tech Counselor in your area, prefereably an RV builder. Or find somebody experienced on this site who is nearby. They would be better equipped to evaluate the workmanship and determine the cause and corrective action for these bad rivets.

Good Luck.
 
Robert M said:
... If you can get a finger nail under the edge of a 3-3.5 on the skin of the wing, it seems to me that there is only about a fingernail's width left holding the rivet in place. I'm not positive but I don't think that meets standards ...
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If you can get a fingernail under the head, that by itself would not meet standards!

Noah said:
If you really like this plane, get a second opinion - a project inspection from an EAA Tech Counselor. It won't cost you anything, and they are required to be fair and objective ...
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If the plane is flying, it has already passed a project inspection from an EAA Tech Counselor, and a DAR! Of course, that does not mean it wasn't properly inspected. Not every rivet is inspected, and it is possible to miss something, so I am not trying to trash the TC and DAR. This could just be a few rivets that got through. I have a few of my own that I found several months later on the wing. I riveted all of the top rivets on the wings alone, in the middle of the summer in Texas. Your arms get pretty tired after three hours of riveting. Last few rivets, maximum reach, should have stopped sooner. I know, making excuses, but it happens.

So, if you are interested in the airplane, then have it inspected by an A&P before you leap.

Tracy.
 
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