T

Tom G

I'm New Here
Just wondering if there is any market for contract building and what are the ins and outs of it. Has any one done this?
I am in Long Island NY
 
Hi Tom.

Welcome to VAF. Since you are new to this forum, you haven't been around long enough to have been part of the debate over this very issue. There is lots to read about it in the archives, but let me give you the quick run down:

1. What you propose is illegal. The FAA regs that allow us to build and fly our own airplanes prohibit doing so as any kind of commercial endeavor.

2. By doing so, you put our entire hobby at risk. The FAA is right now in the process of re-evaluating the amateur built rules due to this type of abuse.

3. You take on a significant risk of being left holding the bag if the plane that you build for hire cannot be certified if it is found to be in violation of #1 above.

You will come across some folks who disagree with the above and think there is nothing wrong with pro-building. They use tortured logic and rationalization to support their position, and are exactly the reason for #2 above.
 
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Welcome, Tom...

Type in "51% rule" in the search box above this thread and you'll find weeks of reading on the regs and a bunch of opinions:D

Regards,
 
partially built kit?

I don't want to hijack the thread, but I do want to weigh in with a question. I have found a mostly completed RV that I am interested in. So what kind of problems can I get into by purchasing an unfinnished kit? :confused:
 
oneway said:
I don't want to hijack the thread, but I do want to weigh in with a question. I have found a mostly completed RV that I am interested in. So what kind of problems can I get into by purchasing an unfinnished kit? :confused:
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None, as long as the kit was completed by an amateur. The 51% rule states that 51% (the major portion) of the airplane must have been completed by amateurs.

If the airplane is already past that stage, you would most likely not be eligible for the repairman's certificate, but since it is an experimental anyone can work on it or do maintenance...you would just have to find an A&P (doesn't have to be an IA) to sign off the annual condition inspection.
 
Tom G said:
Just wondering if there is any market for contract building and what are the ins and outs of it. Has any one done this?
I am in Long Island NY
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Yes people have done it. As long as you aren't being paid at all, it could be legal... but I'm guessing that's not the intent of the question.

Also the financial of making it work make the hourly wage something less than desirable. Before I started building, I crunched then numbers on what the built RV sells for, and it turns out my labor is pretty much free... but that's still better than most, Lancairs, Glasairs, W-10s, Mustang IIs, all aren't worth the sum of their parts...
 
Well, sorta/kinda...maybe

Jamie is mostly correct but my buddy bought a -4 kit on the gear and canopy done, wings and empennage done and the DAR awarded him the Repairman's cert. His remark was, "It was all amateur-built, wasn't it?"

So it depends on the DAR to an extent, doesn't it, Mel?

Regards,
 
Hello to all and thanks for the response.
I definitely am not looking to put anyone?s hobby at risk. I am simply someone who is interested in anything with aviation and a love of building and creating things. I see experimental aircraft for sale all over and thought that if at some point anyone was interested, this may be an option/experience for both of us. Not looking to do anything illegal. Just a simple question. OK maybe not simple!
 
Find an EAA chapter, Tom.....

....and I'd bet that you can help others with their build, buck rivets and have a good old time. A lot of guys have subassemblies built like the fuel tanks, mainly because Pro-seal is messy...others have the Instrument panels CAD cut or need help with wiring, etc.

Regards,
 
pierre smith said:
....and I'd bet that you can help others with their build, buck rivets and have a good old time. A lot of guys have subassemblies built like the fuel tanks, mainly because Pro-seal is messy...others have the Instrument panels CAD cut or need help with wiring, etc.

Regards,
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Not sure what you meant with this post! Was the first sentence meant to be sarcastic?
 
You did not say what type of RV. If you want to build and get paid for it, you can legally build an RV-12 as an ELSA for hire. The 51 percent rule does not apply to ELSA.
 
Tom G said:
Not sure what you meant with this post! Was the first sentence meant to be sarcastic?
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Not at all! :eek: Pierre is saying that there are plenty of builders who would welcome a helping hand ('bucking rivets' is holding the bucking bar against a rivet while the other person uses a rivet gun to drive the rivet). Building sessions often (always :rolleyes:) become 'hangar talk' sessions, with some liquid refreshment to keep your energy up after all the 'hard work' :cool:
 
Minor correction

You can build RV's for hire. You just have to move to South Africa to do it. :D There are probably a lot of countries were build for hire is legal, but not in the United States.

If you haven't already, you may want to build a few first so you can figure out if this is something you would have the desire and ability to do. :eek:
 
Pierre

I didn't think a DAR could award a repairman's certificate.

I had to go to FSDO to get mine.
 
But it wasn't a complex project to get the Repair Card.

You just needa few pictures with you in them standing around some of your airplane looking parts.


AND

Check the box that says that you built it and sign it.

Along with a fee.

Wait 6 months or more and get it back from Oklahoma.
 
I think the moral of the story is. Do people want to buy a plane someone just built? Personally, I wouldn't. Unless the builder has flown all those test hours first.
 
Well, yes and no...

caryr said:
Pierre

I didn't think a DAR could award a repairman's certificate.

I had to go to FSDO to get mine.
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My DAR did all the paperwork, including getting me the repairman's cert.

Tom.....no sarcasm meant. I don't know what your building skills are and EAA chapters offer so much camaraderie and opportunities to meet other builders, oftentimes RV builders, that you'd have quite a bit of opportunity to learn to buck/drive rivets and other sheetmetal working skills. There really is a lot to learn.

Regards,
 
This is something I've never fully understood....

I understand the reason behind the 51% rule. I am building, and would prefer to build, my own airplane. I intend to fly it for many years, and I certainly don't want any of our building or flying privileges taken away or restricted further because others are bending or breaking the rules.

But, here's my question:
Let's assume (hypothetically of course), I decided to sell my airplane as soon as the airworthiness certificate was issued. That's legal isn't it? What's the difference between that, and someone building an airplane for someone else? I'm not trying to start or fuel a fire, but isn't this a simple loop-hole to the 51% rule?

Like I said first; I'm building my own, and plan to fly it for a looong time. Just wondering.....
 
Jeff A said:
But, here's my question:
Let's assume (hypothetically of course), I decided to sell my airplane as soon as the airworthiness certificate was issued. That's legal isn't it? What's the difference between that, and someone building an airplane for someone else? I'm not trying to start or fuel a fire, but isn't this a simple loop-hole to the 51% rule?

Like I said first; I'm building my own, and plan to fly it for a looong time. Just wondering.....
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It might not be legal...

When applying for certification, you need to sign a document (and have it notarized) certifying that you built the airplane only for your education and recreation.
The form contains a warning of the penalty of perjury, etc. If a person can sign that document in good conscience, knowing they have never had a single thought about how many thousands of $ they can come out ahead after the sale, but only thinking of how enjoyable this whole project will be (though I think we can all agree that anyone taking on a project as major as building an RV, but having no care to keep it afterward is probably a pretty rare situation)...then I think they are actually operating within the intent of the rule and can truly say the only built it for their education and recreation.

Do I think it can be proven one way or the other? No. That is why in a sense it is a loop hole.
 
Jeff A said:
Let's assume (hypothetically of course), I decided to sell my airplane as soon as the airworthiness certificate was issued. That's legal isn't it? What's the difference between that, and someone building an airplane for someone else? I'm not trying to start or fuel a fire, but isn't this a simple loop-hole to the 51% rule?
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Shhhhhhhh.... lets not give them any reasons to change the rules!
You are pointing out the foolishness of laws that require knowing ones intent. How is one to distinguish between the individual that fully intended to build for 'recreation and education' but lost interest for whatever reason from those that were really just out to build and sell? Bottom line: you cant.

It is also my understanding from EAA that it is acceptable for a group of several or more folks to build a plane together, provided only one of the builders gets the repairmans certificate - that individual would not necessarily have actually done 51% himself in this case.

erich
 
You need to move to Canada. Hired gun building is completely legal up here. It's tough to make a living at it though, but I know one guy with terminal builder's itch whose wife is glad he has other people to pay for his addiction.
 
OK. Sounds way too complex to get it done legally. It was just a thought and I typed out loud. I have to stop doing that.

Thanks
Tom
 
caryr said:
Pierre

I didn't think a DAR could award a repairman's certificate.

I had to go to FSDO to get mine.
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The rule in 2003 was a DAR could not approve a repairman certificate, it had to be done with an FAA inspector....but the rule may have changed.
 
Tom G said:
OK. Sounds way too complex to get it done legally. It was just a thought and I typed out loud. I have to stop doing that.

Thanks
Tom
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No harm in asking. There is a ton of info on this forum, all you have to do is figure out how to search for it.
 
Jeff A said:
Let's assume (hypothetically of course), I decided to sell my airplane as soon as the airworthiness certificate was issued. That's legal isn't it? What's the difference between that, and someone building an airplane for someone else? I'm not trying to start or fuel a fire, but isn't this a simple loop-hole to the 51% rule?
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You hit on the heart of the issue here. It is legal to sell a homebuilt that you built. It is not legal to build a homebuilt for the purpose of selling it, or to build it "on spec" or for a pre-arranged buyer. Since the 2nd scenario is illegal, some are tempted to attempt to do it, then try to dress it up to make it look like the first scenario, utilizing this "loophole."

It is precisely this abuse of the system that has the FAA rethinking the current rules, with the possibility that they will be re-written in a much more restrictive manner.
 
I've seen it firsthand...

rvbuilder2002 said:
Possibly, but the Experimental Exhibition catagory is much more restrictive for operation compared to Amateur Built.
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....right here on our airport. A friend bought a factory built Fascination D-4, the first one in the U.S. from Germany, to use as a photo platform. Within two months the FAA said that he can only fly it to fly-ins, leave it parked there and fly it home:eek:

So now he has a $135,000 airport ornament.

Regards,
 
Tom G said:
OK. Sounds way too complex to get it done legally. It was just a thought and I typed out loud. I have to stop doing that.

Thanks
Tom
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Excuse me, but if you do not mind some further advice ?

What you could do, and do legally, is be a builder assistant. What happens is that the owner is also the builder (which keep the FAA happy), but you can help them if they need some help moving things, with riveting, provide training in the proper use of tools, help with engine installation, help with the avionics set up, and so on.

The owner/builder does the actual work, but you can legally help them do the work and charge them money accordingly. I met up with one gentleman who built his RV-8 in 93 days by using such a service, and there are several people that do just that sort of thing listed here at VAF:

http://www.vansairforce.net/bap.htm

I hope this helps!
 
Don't quit yet...

Tom G said:
OK. Sounds way too complex to get it done legally. It was just a thought and I typed out loud. I have to stop doing that.
Thanks
Tom
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Nothing wrong with asking questions! That's how I've gotten so smart... :rolleyes:
Someone noted earlier that if you find someone who wants an RV-12, it is absolutely legal for you to build it 'for hire'. I have a buddy doing it right now.
The best idea is still to find a local EAA chapter that has a number of active builders (not all do). Any of them will be thrilled to show you their project so you can see first hand what it's all about.
 
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