N546RV

N546RV

Well Known Member
First, let's talk about me. I earned my private certificate last March after 44 hours in the Diamond DA-20. Since then, I had some tight money moments that limited my flying time; I'm currently a hair under 60 hours total. Just yesterday I got checked out on the local flight school's Archer. (a different animal from the Diamond to be sure, but that's another discussion)

In essence, I'm a snot-nosed brat of a pilot at the moment. In terms of cross-country trips, I've made two solo trips from Atlanta up to Chattanooga to see family. (about 90nm one-way)

A couple of (non-pilot) coworkers and I are planning a trip down to the Keys in a couple months. Now, I'd really love to pack us into the Archer and skip the whole 15-hour drive, but I'm also mindful of my inexperience, which is why I'd like to get some dispassionate and experienced opinions.

I've already told the guys that if we fly, they need to make peace with the fact that we will be at the mercy of the weather, that it's entirely possible that our trip could get shortened or lengthened if things get iffy anywhere along the way. I also plan to get a good bit more time in the Archer locally before I go forth into the great unknown. That will include a hamburger trip with the guys so they'll know what they're going to potentially sit in for three-hour legs. (I'd be making a fuel stop somewhere around Lakeland) And I definitely won't be making any long legs over water; a water landing in case of engine failure is not something I'm interested in.

So, with all that said, I'd like to hear what you folks think of this. Am I biting off more than I can chew with my level of experience? I think it's doable, but I'm aware that I'm biased, and probably more than a little enamored with the idea of a fun flight down to semi-paradise.

Fire away.
 
Hey Philip,

One thing for sure, RV guys do lot's of cross-country flying. There's no better place than this to ask your question. You'll get lot's of replies I am sure.

Be careful of GET-THERE-ITUS! When the weather turns lousy and you're almost there, don't fall into the trap that would have you just try to "get there". Always be ready to divert and wait out any weather. Write out your personal minimums and commit to abide by them NO MATTER WHAT!
 
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N546RV said:
-----but I'm also mindful of my inexperience, which is why I'd like to get some dispassionate and experienced opinions.
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Well, you have gotten the first and most important part of the problem figured out-----very good self appraisal will go a long way toward a successful trip.

N546RV said:
I've already told the guys that if we fly, they need to make peace with the fact that we will be at the mercy of the weather,
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Sounds like you got the number two issue figured out also.

Methinks you are going to do just fine with the attitude you are showing so far.

My suggestion, for what it is worth, is to make a test trip if you can afford it. Then when you take your buddies, you will have the experience behind you.

Always leave yourself a way out, always plan for an alternate or two for every possible problem you can foresee.

Good luck, you are headed on the right track.
 
I'd say it is very doable as long as you are cognizant of the weather. Carry out the trip in daylight and avoid marginal conditions and it'll be a great trip. As you pointed out, that may mean being flexible with your departure dates.

One thing I find when I travel with non-flyers is they don't realize that when it is time to leave, it is time to leave - not do another chore around the house, chat with the wife, etc. Why? Because if the weather is *go* right now, every minute you waste is a minute you lose from the weather window, whether that window is minutes, hours, or days long.

We almost got stranded in Tejas once upon a time. I'd announced the night before departure that a front was heading in and we needed to be off the ground at daybreak to avoid waiting days for weather. For whatever reason, I couldn't pry my wife out of her folk's house the next morning until 30 minutes or an hour after we needed to leave for the airport. We literally departed as a low ceiling/fog began to cover one side of the airport at Sulphur Springs.
 
Two Words

You probably already know this: FLIGHT FOLLOWING
While you can get Approach or Center frequencies in the AFD, just about every aviation portable GPS has a nearest function that lists all frequencies associated with nearby airports. Having flight following is a little like having a hand on your shoulder for the entire trip. Take advantage of it. In addition to traffic advisories, they can provide vectors where needed. Besides, the more you talk to ATC, the better prepared you'll be as you progress in your ratings. Just remember, if you're not sure of a transmission, JUST ASK.
Good Luck
Terry, CFI
RV-9A N323TP
 
I will definitely be doing flight following; the thought of not doing so never entered my mind. I have a bit of a leg up when it comes to working w/ ATC; I did my private out of PDK, so I've been working with controllers since day one. Heck, at this point I'm more comfortable flying into a busy towered airport than an untowered field!

Additionally, the Archer I'd be renting has dual 430s, and the -20 I did my private in had a 530, so I'm familiar with the operation of the unit, including finding the nearest airport along with data and frequencies. I'll also have my iPad with Foreflight along as another data source.

I appreciate everyone's insights, keep 'em coming.
 
It's just a series of trips strung together.

Stick to the basics, avoid the complicated airspace, and land at small places for gas. It'll be easy. And watch out for the tethered balloon west of Key West. Controllers all over Florida are used to dealing with beginner pilots, don't sweat it. It'll be a fun learning experience. Just double check the weight/balance numbers. I watched an Archer crash loaded with four people and bags, topped off with gas. Luckily they all walked away from it, some how.
 
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The thing I always keep in mind is that all "long cross countries" are really a bunch of "short cross countries". Take each leg as a separate trip-each with a risk assessment and careful planning. Once one "trip" is complete I look at the next one while still on the ground and generally review everything from the next airport diagram, fuel requirement, the new weather picture, etc. Kinda like building an RV--one task at a time.

Steve Johnson
N524SJ
RV-9A
 
The most important advice anyone ever gave me in 36 years of flying airplanes is always leave yourself an out. Never bet the farm on Plan A. Always have a back-up and a back-up to the back up. The cockpit becomes a different environment when you have two or three non-pilots with you. I would recommend you take the trip with only one friend the first time since you have little cross-country experience. Utilize that friend to help navigate and recuce your work load and look for traffic. The more your pax is in the game the better, it will help keep you on task as well. Finally, it is far better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than the converse. Trite but quite true! Good luck
 
RLrothJr said:
The most important advice anyone ever gave me in 36 years of flying airplanes is always leave yourself an out. Never bet the farm on Plan A. Always have a back-up and a back-up to the back up. The cockpit becomes a different environment when you have two or three non-pilots with you. I would recommend you take the trip with only one friend the first time since you have little cross-country experience. Utilize that friend to help navigate and recuce your work load and look for traffic. The more your pax is in the game the better, it will help keep you on task as well. Finally, it is far better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than the converse. Trite but quite true! Good luck
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Best advice on the forum. I never fully appreciated it until I started flying faster jets, and really got an appreciation for landing routinely with 20 minutes of gas or less. Being committed to one course of action should be very VERY uncomfortable, I'll usually cancel if able before committing to a single option.

As far as taking only one... as long as you can compartmentalize, you'll be fine with taking all three. They'll more than likely be bored and quiet. I think you'll be disappointed though at how much you won't be able to take with you if you load all four seats.
 
Distractions

Don't let your passengers distract you. People like to talk and ask questions especially non pilots. Be sure to tell your passengers during your passenger briefing when you expect them to be quiet. Familiarize yourself with the pilot isolate switch on the intercom, I've used it many times.
3 guys bags and fuel is a good load in an Archer (tell them to pack light).
Suggest that they help you look for other aircraft traffic.
Weather can't be mentioned enough, make sure it's very good.

It's been well stated in previous posts that you must have a plan B. Excellent advice as well as personal minimums, stick to them as mentioned in a previous post. It's very difficult to do sometimes.

Tell your friends not to take in too many fluids before the flight. We've all been there...A thermos of coffee is great fun...for a short time...Where's that nearest airport function again....
 
Philip,

Some great advice coming your way. RL summed it up really well. To his "give yourself a couple outs", I'd add:

- Your non-pilot buds don't get a vote. Not on a go/no-go decision, and not on an airborne course of action selection. They should not influence your decision (unless they are a pilot, then you have resources to manage and use...or perhaps if non-pilots get really scared...then you can land, take a break and let things settle. If pilot friends get really scared, definitely land and let things settle! ;)).

- Don't let "what will my buds think" ever creep into your decision matrix. They will someday appreciate the takeoff you didn't do or the divert you did do...even if they don't know it now. If you start getting in a situation you don't like, fess up early, bail and talk about it on the ground. They will respect your call.

- Finally, at the risk of sounding like a parent or coach or squadron CO, watch your readiness to fly, and don't try to soar with the eagles if you howled with the wolves the night before! My first big X-C like the one you are contemplating was in college, in a Cherokee Six, with a load of fraternity brothers on the way to a fraternity "conference"...yeah, that's what it was called...in San Diego! ;) As a guy that's been to Key West and knows the fun to be had, I'll just say, be "ready" when it comes time to leave. "Know what I mean Vern?" But have fun, and have a Rum Runner and a Big Mamoo at Sloppy Joes for me!! :D

Cheers,
Bob
 
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You've got plenty of good advice already, but I'll add a couple items that may be new to a novice pilot.

In the Keys, there are tethered blimps used. You may want to ensure you know where they are located before you leave. I believe they are on the sectionals, but it's been awhile since I've looked. Better than being caught off guard when you see a sight that you aren't used to seeing.

Since you're in a rented Cherokee, develop a plan if you have an engine outage while between islands. Personally, I know I have different standards flying my own a/c as oppose to a rental over water. You may want to consider if you need/want life vests.
 
A wise old sage once told me...

...that there are three dangers to flying:

1. Low fuel.

2. Bad weather.

3. Nighttime.

As long as you don't get any two together at the same time, you can successfully cope with any one of the three. I can't tell you how many times I've used and remembered this really good advice.

As someone else said...it's just a bunch of 90 milers added up....no big deal. You fly A-B, B-C, C-D, etc.

Best,
 
Three more thoughts to add to the mix:

You are choosing a period of time when the seasonal weather is becoming more benign, as the LP cells sweeping
W to E across N America become less frequent, less strong and so with shorter lasting, less violent frontal wx systems. To put the odds of good wx in your favor, doing the trip in April would be better than March - and late in April better than earlier.

LAL is an excellent choice for stopping.. Contract tower there with perhaps the friendliest controllers and FBO folks in FL. If you hit there in time for an early bite to eat, you'll enjoy Earharts, the restuarant owned by the family that had some direct ties with Amelia very early in her career. The momentos, photos, letters on the walls of the restaurant will tempt you to linger...

The very nature of the very S end of FL, Florida Bay and the Keys makes it impossible to be within gliding distance of a field, or even a long, flat stretch of land...so essentially, the last leg of the flight will be 'over water' with the exception of a few spots along the way. OTOH you can always remain within gliding distance of a flat stretch of water that you can stand up in.:D You really should carry life jackets (borrow non-auto inflatable types from boater friends back home or, if not available, consider fueling at FXE or one of the other smaller airports in SE FL and rent them for a few days. (Advance reservation is a good idea).

Given the context in which you have set up the initial plan, my reaction is that this is exactly how inexperienced pilots become more experienced pilots safely, and is exactly why being able to fly is such a joy and a treasure for us here in the States. This is a very do-able plan IMO, given the constraints you are placing on it. One last suggestion: During the pre-flight brief to your pax, introduce the concept of a Sterile Cockpit. The suggestion about non-talking periods was already mentioned, but giving it a formal-sounding (and its correct) name will help reinforce it in your passengers' eyes.

Good luck to you, and enjoy the view. The Keys are a beauty to behold on a good wx day, even now.

Jack
 
Read this for my take on improving my flying comfort zone

http://tinyurl.com/5mphdw

If you read this closely, there were many diversions, delays, etc. NOTHING is so important that you press on and kill yourself and others. Work pressures...no. Vacation time issues...no. Family pressures...once again no.

Also consider a longer than 90 nm trip (perhaps 2-3 hours each way). Or perhaps a triangle, two hours per leg with appropriate fuel stop). Take one passenger...maybe two. Stop for lunch/fuel.

I have only been to Key West twice so my knowledge of the area is limited but you may have to fly out over the ocean south of land a short ways to remain out of airspace of a Navy base.
 
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As always you have recieved some very sage advice that I'd definately follow. Remember though, that you have been trained. You have been given your ticket. Trust in yourself. Be conservative. We were all in your shoes and had to gain our experience by doing exactly what you are doing.

It will be an invaluable experience that will boost your confidence.

Rock On!
 
One absolute of aviation.......

One last word of advice for you, as has already been said, there is a lot of good advice in the posts above.

Just keep in mind that there are a very limited number of absolutes in aviation.

You do not have to take off, you do not have to go now, you do not have to go where you intended, you do not have to return when you want, ETC.

BUT, once you are up in the air, you MUST come back down.

The main goal of any flight I start, it to optimize the satisfactory accomplishment of the only mandatory portion of it.
 
Zig-Zag

Consider selecting some airports as Nav waypoints. You will zig & zag a bit more than a direct course, but it's comforting for new pilots (and passengers) to see airports glide by under the wing. It may surprise you how little distance is added, especially in states with lots of airports.

Set your personal minimums (visibility, ceiling, winds) and stick to them like they were the law. Talk to your flight instructor if you need help setting minimums.
 
+1 on over flying airports on your way. I always make a point to do this and to point them out to my wife as we go... Makes her way more comfortable!

The other thing is to get some experience in and around Class B airspace. Traveling the length of Florida means that you almost are guaranteed to have to deal with it at some point. Explain to your passengers that you will have ton's of radio traffic going on in and around those suckers.
 
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Mike S said:
BUT, once you are up in the air, you MUST come back down.
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Yah, that's right, and I tell my non-pilot friends: "Don't worry, we have never left one up there YET!"

Seriously, what a great thread, lots of good advice. But you know, I am wary if I take just one non-pilot friend in my RV for a local flight, and I pay a lot of attention to him/her to see how they react, let alone 2 or 3 on a long cross country. I like what someone said here about starting with one on a short X-country then scaling up. I also agree with a thorough briefing as to what to expect, and particularly do's and don't while airborne. Explain what a sterile cockpit is during departure/landing.
 
Although you want to be careful about how and if you talk about it (you don't want to "plant" the idea), make sure you have sick sacks or a coffee can with a lid. Especially if the pax don't have experience in little planes. And it doesn't make any difference that they can do every ride at the midway. I have a daughter who does all the rides, bungee jumps, etc but she will barf almost every time in a little plane. There's not much worse than turbulence, heat and that smell! And cleaning it up. Fortunately its a rental.
 
Most of my male friends are RV pilots so if we take a trip we all fly our planes. Many times most planes have one person in them.

No RV pilot wants to be a passenger in my world.
 
Wow, talk about a wealth of responses!

A little more info about my passengers: Both of the guys have been up in small aircraft several times; one of them has flown with me before. Even so, I'm still going to make a short cross-country with them before we go for the big southern trip to make sure everyone is comfortable.

In terms of challengea around KEYW, I'm aware of both the aerostat and the way the Boca Chica airspace abuts KEYW. Truth be told, I'll most likely end up flying to Marathon instead; lodging is cheaper and we've got better access all the way up and down the Keys for all the fishing we'll be doing. :)

Oh, and we've already discussed life vests; those will be tagging along for sure.

Big thanks to everyone for chiming in; I'm feeling pretty good about the trip. And you can count on stories + pictures + video when it's over.
 
not sure if..........

these points were made but here is my 2 cents...............

a credit card!!!!!!!!!!!! and a spare!!!!!!!!!!!

the RV HOTEL LIST!!!!!!!! and a spare!!!!!!!! come to see me in florida.

i hope you are flying a RV, some people have spares but not needed on the trip.

a camera and spare SD cards!!!!!!! and battery charger.

now go out and do the right thing, and post the trip on VAF!!!!!!!!

PS,bring along a pretty copilot, no spare needed, they can be found at your local flyin.

img0421uw.jpg
 
Fairly complicated "first" cross country...

My thoughts (worth what you paid!) are that your trip is fairly ambitious for a first biggie. There is a lot going on airspace wise going south in the neighborhood of Lakeland. It is a little difficult for those of us with a lot of experience with airspace (that we aren't familiar with) to recall how confusing it was for most of us at the stage that you are at the time we are flying through it. Your chances of retaining flight following through that area are probably less than 50%, and if you do go through Tampa's class B, they will almost certainly vector you some long way around. That said, it is fairly easy to stay below their bravo and thread the needle. If weather clear, it is easy to stay above it also.

Going further south, deciding on a "jumping off" point as to where to leave the FL coast and hop over to the Keys is another important decision. The visibility will have a lot to say in it. I've flown direct from Fort Myers (requires DVFR flight plan) to Key West, and I've hugged the shore all the way til the Keys were in sight, near Key Largo.

We look forward to a trip report, wherever you go!
 
Brantel said:
+1 on over flying airports on your way. I always make a point to do this and to point them out to my wife as we go... Makes her way more comfortable!
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I completely agree with flying over airports on a CC. I travel from northern FL to northern NC and back every year. I have two GPS's, and follow my course on charts, and always use airports as waypoints. It keeps me sharp looking for them on the charts, and keeps my eyes out of the cockpit looking for them from the air. Using airports as waypoints adds negligible distance to my flights, and from cruise altitudes I generally could make, or get darn close, to an airport if I had an emergency.

Have fun! I was born in Key West and when I was younger (in the late'60's) growing up in Boca Raton I flew a lot around the Key's and southern FL in the old Champ.

Chris Smith
 
Take care on the leg say from Homested to Key West. There are not many "outs" on that leg unless you file Havana as an alternative and I don't think your gonna do that. The route along the causeway down to Key West from Miami is truly amazing.
 
LISTEN TO THOSE PILOTS

Many pilots, according FAA reports get in trouble at 80-100 hours, myself included. Lost(way before gps), low fuel, over mountains, snow, carb ice, frozen brake on frozen runway, weathered in 2 days and scud running the rental back at pattern altitude following railroad tracks. I was only 410 miles from home but thank God I was also by myself. I saw it all in 4 days.
I think you are overly ambitious, nothing wrong with that. And still short on experience. It's seldom one thing that gets you in trouble but 3 things stacking up.
Low fuel, lost, weather and unfamilier terrain. Add low time pilot, like I was, and you'll understand my recipe for trouble. Any fool can get into trouble but it takes a smart pilot to avoid it. Build some hours before you do this.
 
Just go!!!
Fly direct from ATL to Key West or MTH and have a great time. You already have great advice from all the other pilots on this forum. One other thing-if you have access to a gps with weather, get it. It will take a lot of guesswork out of the equation. I regularly fly to MTH with my wife from the Ft. Lauderdale area. We usually fly west of Miami Class B at 2000ft and then climb to 6500 direct over the water. There is only a short span over the Florida Bay where you couldn't glide to an island from that height. Also you save about 40 minutes to Key West. If you are in for the scenery, fly directly to the coast and go south. You will pass an airport about every 30 seconds till you get to Key Biscayne. If you land at HWO, give me a call. 954-829-2959 and I'll give you and your friends a tour.
Woodman
 
HWO looks to be a bit off the beaten path for the flight down, but I appreciate the offer.

Trip prep is going well; I've gotten several flights in the Archer now, including a hamburger run with the guys. They did fine, spotted traffic for me... though I did use the pilot isolate switch in the vicinity of airports just to be on the safe side. I noticed that they don't seem to have that automatic reflex to clam up when someone's talking on the radio. Something else to remember to cover in my pax briefing.

I was going to be taking the Archer up to TN this weekend, but Mother Nature is not cooperating. I figure I'll be able to get in another ten hours before trip time arrives. I start a new job Monday with a nice pay increase, so there'll be spare money around to finance plenty of familiarization time.

Its happening!
 
Lots of replies here and I haven't read them all. You have the right attitude and understand the weather issue, which is what's really necessary for a successful x-c, especially VFR. Nevertheless I'd suggest your first long, overnight, x-c be without any time pressure at all: not from family, friends, co-workers, your job, nothing. If you ARE delayed by weather, invariably there will be one guy who HAS to get back home. Are you REALLY prepared to put him on a Greyhound bus, then put up with his guff next week at work?

Think this through carefully. To be a successful VFR pilot carrying pax you have to be ready to be a jerk and tell disappointed pax that the flight won't take place, that everybody is taking a rental car or bus home, etc. It's a lot easier to do that to yourself than to your friends.
 
Buggsy2 raises a similar point to mine in post #16. What I did not consider since I am usually solo, is that a weather delay, mechanical problem, etc, may mean that one or more of your passengers needs to get home with alternate transportation.

That should be part of the going in assumptions/rules. It may not happen, but if it does, no hard feelings. Better 12 hours in a Greyhound bus than embedded in a swamp never to be found.
 
I flew back from Daytona Beach on Monday, got weathered out in Tallahuma, TN for 2 days. Though instrument rated, I'd still rather put up in a motel for a couple of days rather than play with thunderstorms, low ceilings and icing.
 
Cadstat said:
I've taken the bus home more than once
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apkp777 said:
I flew back from Daytona Beach on Monday, got weathered out in Tallahuma, TN for 2 days. Though instrument rated, I'd still rather put up in a motel for a couple of days
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Good for you guys. I too have waited out IMC. But the original poster has to ask this: can he tell 2 or 3 passengers that they have to wait for days in a motel? That THEY have to take the bus home?

"The funeral for the VFR pilot caught in IMC is usually on a sunny day." Meaning, IMC turns to VMC soon enough, IF you and your pax can wait.
 
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Buggsy2 said:
But the original poster has to ask this: can he tell 2 or 3 passengers that they have to wait for days in a motel? That THEY have to take the bus home?
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If he can't, then don't go on the trip. Under no circumstances must he succumb to peer pressure to "get home."

If an issue arises that results in a delay then the passengers have a choice.

1) Wait until the problem is resolved with no guarantee of the time required.

2) Get home with whatever alternate transportation suits them: Bus, commercial air, rental car, skateboard, etc.

Read about the guy leaving the LOE event in Las Cruces a few years ago reportedly (unconfirmed) on his daughters birthday. Here is the NTSB report:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20081011X32410&key=1
 
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Update: Blastoff for the Big Adventure is in three weeks. I've taken the guys on several local trips- most recently this afternoon- so they know what to expect out of flight time in general. I've gotten in some good time with the plane and I'm feeling comfortable flying it. I've also made a habit out of isolating my intercom when I'm flying around an airport. Call it my personal (semi-)sterile cockpit rule.

We talked today about making a go/nogo decision on departure day. If, by mid-morning, I'm not convinced that the weather is favorable, we're packing the car and driving. No BS, no debate, I make the call.

I'm starting to get stoked. :D Count on video and photos when (IF) we arrive in MTH.

Once again, thanks for all the info.
 
I'm typing this at the counter of a lovely little vacation house in Key Colony Beach. The flight down was mostly uneventful; I picked up a nice tailwind from PDK to my fuel stop at X60. Weather check at that point showed some widely scattered clouds moving into the southern peninsula later; it seemed that I'd likely be able to either fly over them or duck below, depending on how close to my destination they were. Worst case, I had enough gas to turn around and find an alternate.

Those clouds ended up being more significant than forecast, with tops up around 12,000 or so. As a result, I found myself detouring to the west and basically skirting the west coast to avoid them. Once I got further south, I was able to get good weather from airports ahead of me and feel confident in descending below the clouds to make my short water crossing to the Keys.

Before long, I was stepping out onto a hot ramp in Marathon. Before long after that, I was sipping a margarita on a dock while chowing down on fried grouper. Now I just have to hope for similarly good weather next Saturday!

Thanks one more time for all the good advice you people have given me. All I gotta say is that this is really the way to travel. Course, I might change my mind when I get home and pay the plane rental bill for about 13 hours. :eek:
 
I was pretty comfortable the whole way. I had a bit of concern when I was diverting to avoid the clouds, but I knew I had an out if I needed it, so it was really no biggie. And the payoff once I was flying down parallel to the Keys at 2000' was just too good for words.
 
Didn't read the whole thread, but thought I'd throw in my 2 cents worth.

Having now experienced two in-flight losses of power (here's one), the one thing I will hammer on is to choose high over low if it's an option and to have an up-to-date GPS set to display ever airfield you could land on when the screen range is set to approximate your gliding range at your chosen altitude.

Make the decision before you take off each and every time that the safety of the airplane is completely irrelevant compared to the safety of the occupants, and commit to flying the airplane all the way down to the ground whether at your intended landing or due to unexpected power loss. That means that airspeed is your friend, and you must commit to PICKING a landing spot even if it is between two trees (note that two trees will destroy the wings, but slow you most likely without killing you).

Once you have made that decision, the rest of your flying career will be generally worry-free (because you have made the decision to live, and everything else is simply a matter for the lawyers)... :D
 
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