N8Higgies

Member
I'm currently living in Enid, OK for AF pilot training. I attended a few EAA meetings at the local chapter and was given the name and number of a couple that builds RVs for other people--Syd and Dianne.

I looked on this site and saw they were part of the white pages directory. I've been trying to get ahold of them for over three months now with no luck.

Anyone know them or how to get in contact with them? I'm interested in looking at their operation and possibly having them build me an 8 since I'm going to be more than too busy to build my own. Thanks for the help.
 
I'm currently living in Enid, OK for AF pilot training. I attended a few EAA meetings at the local chapter and was given the name and number of a couple that builds RVs for other people--Syd and Dianne.

I looked on this site and saw they were part of the white pages directory. I've been trying to get ahold of them for over three months now with no luck.

Anyone know them or how to get in contact with them? I'm interested in looking at their operation and possibly having them build me an 8 since I'm going to be more than too busy to build my own. Thanks for the help.


You might want to read the thread below before you think to seriously about doing this. The privilege the rest of us have under the amateur/experimental category may be put at greater risk.

http://www.vansairforce.com/communi...&highlight=professional+experimental+builders
 
These things are supposed to be amateur built, which by definition does not allow "professional builders". Do what you want, but I for one would like to publicly voice my disapproval.
 
A little wiser now

I took the time to read the entire thread posted above. I see valid points to both arguments. For me, the buyer, I don't see a difference in buying a professionally build experimental--aside from the fact that it may end up hurting the future of the hobby. However, having said that, I can see a little wrong doing on the side of the professional builder. The idea of having the plane made exactly to my specs is really appealing, but I guess I'll just have to find one for sale (built by an amateur of course) that meets most of my wants. Thanks for the replies.
 
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Good choice, sir. I'm no expert but I don't think that buying an existing airplane and having it modified to your specifications by a "hired gun" would be outside the intent of the law.

As always, I'm open to correction by any and all.
 
As much as I hate this, I gotta say, If you don't have the time and passion to put into building one, then buy a certified aircraft or find an RV for sale. Too much is at stake nowadays for us guys who like to tinker and build. Hired guns as they say could really ruin the spirt of the 51 percent rule, now on the other hand I would love to build airplanes for a living.
 
Hired Guns

You can have one built for you. It has been done many times.;)

As long as the true builder is listed on all the paperwork as the builder of record and sells his aircraft to someone else---No Foul.:D

If you hire it done and have a few "happy snaps" taken with a rivet gun in your hand and you're listed as the builder, eventially it will ruin the amateur built concept. Having some help along the way while building is totally acceptable though. No one can do all the riveting solo.

I, and most builders take strong exception to the above concept.

No apologies for stepping on anyone's toes here.
 
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Idea for help

Sounds like you should probably by a finished RV. If I could that is what I would do. Another idea to help you get some information would be to show up at Woodring (KWDG)airport between 8-9:00am. Drink coffee, eat some breakfast (weekdays only) & get to know some of the guy's. The group usually includes one RV builder & Lancair builder. Also, alot of good information. On Sat you may only get donuts if Dr. Camp brings any, but he will share:D.

Good Group of Guy's
Shannon Evans
N5650S
 
RV8 for sale

I have a brand new 8 for sale. I've decided that I don't need 2 RV8's so one must go. 180hp, CS, Dynon D180, SL40, GTX327, Garmin 396, Infinity grip, etc. etc.
513-583-0094 Cincinnati

No paint yet
 
No foul???

As long as the true builder is listed on all the paperwork as the builder of record and sells his aircraft to someone else---No Foul.:D
And as long as the builder doesn't mind paying a big fine or going to jail for falsifying records...
These are supposed to be built for "education and entertainment" not for pre-arranged sales by professional builders or "habitual offenders".
Maybe a DAR will chime in here.
I too go on record as against this type of pre-arranged sale.

**Please see post #13 for clarification
 
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NO FOUL!!!

The "empty shop syndrome" is for real. Along with that is the drive for perfection, or at least, " I can do this better next time", or "Gee that looks like a cool widget to incorporate next time". All are reasons that conspire to create a "habitual offender".
According to my wife I haven't made any money on any of the airplanes I've finished and sold, and she should know because she handles all the money! If I did I'd just waste it on airplane stuff.
 
Rephrase

The "empty shop syndrome" is for real. Along with that is the drive for perfection, or at least, " I can do this better next time", or "Gee that looks like a cool widget to incorporate next time". All are reasons that conspire to create a "habitual offender".
According to my wife I haven't made any money on any of the airplanes I've finished and sold, and she should know because she handles all the money! If I did I'd just waste it on airplane stuff.

I should rephrase my post. My point is for the "professional builder" hiding under the guise of a "habitual offender". I know there is a fine line here that could be hard to distinguish, but when someone takes an order to build a plane to a buyers specifications, I believe that is crossing the line. I'd hate to see the experimental airplane industry clamped down because of a few people not playing within the intent of the regulations.
 
There is no limit to the amount and extent of rules that the FAA could impose on experimental aircraft building. Again, the intent was for educational and recreational opportunities for individual builders. When the FAA starts to view our hobby as an underground business, they will act. You know how fast they can shut us down.

Roberta
 
a couple of observations and questions

I applaud the gentleman that started this thread for rethinking his position, and I hope he finds the plane of his dreams. I hope he and everyone else on this forum and elsewhere in the experimental aviation enjoy their aircraft as well as the hobby itself. Its growing fast and offers so many wonderful choices that pilots and builders never had in years past. I have met many wonderful people since I started building and enjoy the building process as well. Its a great priveledge that we all have to be able to enjoy this hobby.

First, I think its great that so many people here learn to build with help from friends/family and have a wonderful plane when they finish after enjoying the build.

Second, I think it is a great thing that there are so many "builder assist" centers (where the builder/owner, builds the plane, but has paid assistance/instruction when they need it) out there to help people who want to build, learn and take part in the construction of their own aircraft. While I am taking my time and enjoying every minute of building my 6A, I built my tail kit Alexander Tech center with their instruction and assistance, and learned alot. But, I was involved in every part of the build there, setting up jigs, riveting, etc. I am sure we all have seen other kit plane companies offereing things like "two weeks to taxi" etc. I think the main goal of the assistance centers are to have the owner, be involved in the building and learning about building, repairing, and flying his/her new plane, which I think is wonderful because the owner is involved and is learning. The regulations state in lay terms, that the person filing to register the plane to have built it for their own education, enjoyment, etc, and also they can have a level of assistance and help during the process.

Third, there are the people who advertise openly to "professionally build" an experimental aircraft, turn key, for someone at a cost. There have been ads over the years posted on various classified websites offering to build this kit or that to your specs, while you sit at home and write the check. These are the ones that I feel actually cross the line because the builder really has no involvent other then writing the check and picking the equipment he wants out. Also the regulations require so much of the aircraft 51% or more to be amatuer built, which rules out a 100% professionally built plane.

Forth, since this topic has come up a few times, I have a few questions for people more knowledeable then I am. Not really to "what if" every possibility. I understand there are fines and other legal penalties that can be imposed by the FAA for someone who "professionally builds" an amauter built aircraft for another at a cost. Would the person who entered into the contract with the "professional builder" be just as legally responsible for fines and damages that came out of the contract? Would the liability insurance and airworthiness registration still be binding since the aircraft was built by a professional, and such was outside of the regulations pertaining to its amatuer built registration?

In my own humble opinion, I think the real looser with haveing a "professional builder" build an entire aircraft is the whole experimental aviation community. We all may loose because sooner or later, when/if the "professional builders" proliferate, something will happen, and the priveledge we all enjoy will be restricted more by the government in the end. I am not trying to put down anyone at all, and I wish everyone well, but I think the "professional builds" are past the line when it comes to the spirit of the amatuer build status, and is also in violation of the law as written and I understand it.

Erik
RV-6A last few details on fuse
 
[/QUOTE]In my own humble opinion, I think the real looser with haveing a "professional builder" build an entire aircraft is the whole experimental aviation community. We all may loose because sooner or later, when/if the "professional builders" proliferate, something will happen, and the priveledge we all enjoy will be restricted more by the government in the end. I am not trying to put down anyone at all, and I wish everyone well, but I think the "professional builds" are past the line when it comes to the spirit of the amatuer build status, and is also in violation of the law as written and I understand it.

Erik
RV-6A last few details on fuse[/QUOTE]



This is what I meant to say in my original post. The "No Foul" statement was meant for the guys who legitimately build and fly an experimental aircraft and later for some reason want to build another model or brand aircraft. All our aircraft will be sold someday. We're not going to live forever.;)

I totally empathize with the "empty nest" syndrome. Experiencing it myself and I have always wanted an RV-3 since the first one I saw years ago.
 
One thought

The FAA does not care about professionally built experimental aircraft. I saw someone in GA News or similar who builds RVs to a point that sounded like it was "just put a few parts on and go fly." If someone will have an article written like that then there must not be any concern...regardless of the current rules.

It would be interesting to compare the cost of a pro built plane compared to an identical amateur built RV (or at least make the cost changes for differences).

Trying to buy an RV sold by owner does require time, travel, disappointment, etc until you find one close enough to be acceptable. Even then you may have to make changes so realistic flexibility when shopping is in your favor.
 
These things are supposed to be amateur built, which by definition does not allow "professional builders". Do what you want, but I for one would like to publicly voice my disapproval.


I read this thread just after it was posted and had no replies yet. Although I wanted to post something similar to scizree I thought it better to wait and see. No matter what any of us think about the rules, they are what they are. Is anyone aware that at the moment the FAA along with some of the industry leaders, Van being one of them, is looking at the 51% rule with an eye on ?guns for hire?. I ask that because I saw no part of any thread refer to it. Let me be clear on this, I'm not against pro builders, I might even go so far as to say that I would be a Pro Builder if circumstances permitted, but the rules that we build under are not supportive of them. We should all be interested in preserving the rules we build by as they are, for our own education. Perhaps the FAA should be approached by builders groups that want to have available to them ?Pro Builders? and fight that fight for themselves. I would much rather see that than have the few people that prefer a turn key solution screw it up for everyone else. I for one was offended that the question was asked here I feel it is the seed undoing for all legitimate home builders.
 
It would be instructive to get the results of the group that looked at these issues. I did read it and my memory is iffy because I don't remember anything about "pro builders."

Does anyone have the link to the official results?
 
A little confused

I have always been a bit confused regarding the 51% rule. It only applies to the original builder. However, pilot B can buy a completed airplane from builder A, who built it for educational purposes. It happens every week/month and we all encourage it. So there are hundreds of pilot Bs out there who are flying experimental airplanes who never bucked a rivet or deburred anything and it is perfectly OK. There seems to be a very fine line focused on "the intent of the original builder" and that intent might be hard to prove for the builder who builds one at a time.

I will be interested in seeing how the group looking into the rules comes up with a better definition than we currently have. I agree that these "factories" should be shut down if they are threatening the experimental movement. But I really think that the FAA should focus on the true "factories" and leave the one at a time guys alone. IMHO.

p.s. I built mine
 
I just don't see...

How anybody could put together a "quality" airplane from Van's and make any money at it! Except for "maybe" the RV10, the 7 and 8 would take what 60-70K minimun to build a decent one and perhaps a years work if you did it full time. With a selling price of around 100K that ain't much money for a whole years worth of work! I considered doing this myself with my recent employment dilema with the airlines but don't really see it as a viable way to make a living. I guess if you were retired or just doing it for fun that's another matter but I think most folks with "some" skills could get a job making more than this not to mention benefits like health insurance, 401K etc. at a "real" job :D