Jesse

Jesse

Well Known Member
I am helping a friend deal with an insurance claim on an RV (US registration) in Mexico. The adjuster is asking for a logbook that lists all flights or an FAA document saying that it is not required. Sounds like the are trying to get out of paying. Any help would be appreciated.
 
FARs just say you have to be able to prove legal currency. If he can do that, and there is no stipulation in the policy that he log every hour, I'd fight it. That said, you have the aircraft logs/history of flight time and you have to report your hours every medical, so there are those paper trails.

Personally I log everything, for reasons like this and my own professional history.
 
He's referring to the plane, not the pilot. I told my friend to tell the guy to find the FAR that requires a log of every flight. That hasn't worked yet.
 
Unfortunately it is implied, not directly stated; logging of all flights is not required because the FARs do not say it is.
FAR 61.51 says you have to log time you intend to use as requisite experience for a new license or rating; or to show compliance with recent experience requirements (e.g., 3 landings and takeoffs in the last 90 days, if passengers are carried.)
 
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As the others have said, there is no requirement to log every flight.

In fact, the only requirement is to log flights for currency if you plan on carrying passengers. If you fly solo all the time, there is no need to log anything, just get your biannual and you are good to go.

That's why / how you can fly by yourself, log your three take off and landings, and then fill the empty seats and go fly.

And yes, the adjuster's job is to find a way to not pay the claim.

to answer your question, I do log every flight in an Excel spreadsheet that mimics my log book and then some. It tracks when the next oil change is due and a few other minor things.
 
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I also log everything in a spreadsheet because every year the insurance company asks.
Is the insurance company asking for some sort of verification of whatever experience the pilot told them he had, when he applied for insurance?
 
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I am baffled as to how a company that writes insurance policies on airplanes would not know that such a thing is not required. It's like asking to see a log of where you've driven your car, or proof that it's not required. You can't produce either one of those things, because neither exists.
 
I imagine part 121 and 135 flights have to be documented. I'm not sure where one would go to get an FAA document that said part 91 need not be. I'd probably search in Chief Counsel writings.
The AOPA has a counsel who writes on aviation topics - maybe that person could help on the question of logging or maybe could give info to clarify that it isn't needed. You might also call up some insurance brokers at random and see if any are aware of this kind of issue.
Perhaps some avionics has a record or some flights. Also, perhaps there are some other records, such as notes about certain trips, visits, fly-ins, souveniers bought, etc., that could be tied with a flight.
Sorry to not be of much help, but it's kind of like the question of whether one has quit beating one's wife - all of a sudden one feels behind the eight ball even if the question is out of line or immaterial.
 
Jesse,

I understand the frustration your friend is going through, about ten years ago, I had hail damage and it took almost a year for the claim to be settled. I went through three different claim adjusters, each coming up with different requirements to prolong the settlement. My persistence finally paid off.

Does your friend had an EFIS installed? I dump EFIS data once a month into saavyanalysis.com. Depending on the brand and sampling rate, that may provide enough information to satisfy the adjuster.

Although I would probably insist on getting an answer to what they are looking for in the logs before handing anything over to them. It appears that they are using this tactic as a stalling maneuver. Time to have an aviation specialized lawyer give the adjusters supervisor a call if he wants to expedite the situation.

Bob
 
Insurance

Insurance companies are only in business to make money. They are not in business to help you. They will do everything they can to wear you down and give you as little money as possible. Yes they will make things up to have you hop through hoops to provide them with things they tell you they must have. They will then use the info to lower the amount of money they will pay you.

Get a lawyer.
 
Jesse said:
The adjuster is asking for a logbook that lists all flights or an FAA document saying that it is not required.
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Get a copy of the insurance policy. It is a contract. Ask the adjuster to show you where in the policy it is required for you to provide that info inorder to be paid a claim.
 
Records

Jesse,

FAR91.417 specifies the records that must be kept by each owner or operator. If you read through it, the only statement about time is the TOTAL time in service for each aircraft, engine and propellor, it does not state each individual flight must be kept in a record. Seems to me a logbook entry with the last condition inspection, and the current aircraft time in service should satisfy the regulation and the adjuster.

Hope that helps,
 
Insurance companies that pull these kinds of stunts deserve to be called out, so that everyone in this small community knows to avoid them.
 
As I understand the original post, this invovles Mexico in some way, so it might have nothign to do with US laws and rules - but I do agree that the contract shoudl be what governs.

This is one reason for having a good insurance broker who will go to bat for you!
 
Aircraft Flt Log

I understand that your thread is in regard to the "Aircraft Flight Log" (not pilot log. I've talked to some pilots from other countries - notably europe, and they say that they keep such a log, logging every flight the aircraft ever made, not just aircraft maintenance.

The request for this log may not be as bizarre as it seems, especially since it seems to involve another country. I'd think some research and communication could resolve the "disparity of opinions" and get your claim settled.

As far as insurance companies writing aviation policies and not understanding them - how many times have you filled out a pilot questionnaire that asks the date of the expiration of your "pilot license"? Insurance companies not having a good understanding of aviation and its requirements is not uncommon - hang with him and find the way to move forward, maybe the adjuster will learn something in the process.
 
FA50driver said:
Jesse,

FAR91.417 specifies the records that must be kept by each owner or operator. If you read through it, the only statement about time is the TOTAL time in service for each aircraft, engine and propellor, it does not state each individual flight must be kept in a record. Seems to me a logbook entry with the last condition inspection, and the current aircraft time in service should satisfy the regulation and the adjuster.

Hope that helps,
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Jesse is correct. The issue is that a common thread for all records of any kind is that they can be audited. This is where a journey log comes in. There are a number of ways that you can keep an auditable log of "Total Time" but most people don't bother with any unless they are in a flight school or partnership.

This from AC43-9
8. RECORDINGTACHOMETERS.
a. Time-in-service recording devices sense such things as electrical power on, oil pressure, wheels on the ground, etc. , and from these conditions provide an indication of time-in-service. With the exception of those that sense aircraft lift-off and touchdown, the indications are approximate.
b. Some owners and operators mistakenly believe these devices may be used in lieu of keeeing time-in-service in the maintenance record. While they are of great assistance in arriving at the time-in-service, such instruments, alone, do not meet the requirements of section 9 1.4 17. For example, when the device fails and requires change, it is necessary to enter timein-service and the instrument reading at the change. Otherwise, record continuity is lost.

Don't go all "Part 43 doesn't apply" because I'm familiar. Just because it doesn't apply doesn't mean there aren't good ideas and useable guidance on how the FAA thinks about records.

Best of luck to the OP.
 
Ironflight said:
As I understand the original post, this invovles Mexico in some way, so it might have nothign to do with US laws and rules - but I do agree that the contract shoudl be what governs.

This is one reason for having a good insurance broker who will go to bat for you!
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US Registered plane, US Insurance company, Mexican Adjuster. Thanks, everybody, for all the suggestions.
 
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