L

lucky

Well Known Member
Quick question, do experimentals get an exemption from 14CFR45.25 which states N numbers, if placed on the fuselage, must be between the wing trailing edge and horizontal stab leading edge? It's very easy to see a LOT of RVs with the N numbers painted under the Horizontal Stab. I showed my paint shop a couple of photos of RVs painted this way but they are still balking at doing so.


If it's 'illegal' to do so even for experimentals, it at least obvious it's not an enforced item by the FAA/DAR during inspections.
 
No Exemption

Amateur-built aircraft get no exemptions for "N" number placement. The exceptions you are seeing come from the fact that many aircraft are certificated before paint. At this point the "N" number is correctly placed. At paint, the number is moved to an illegal location.
 
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Mel said:
Amateur-built aircraft get no exemptions for "N" number placement. The exceptions you are seeing come from the fact that many aircraft are certified before paint. At this point the "N" number is correctly placed. At paint, the number is moved to an illegal location.
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Despite the fact that is an illegal location, I don't see why your paint shop would balk. Sure they should inform you, but they wouldn't be doing anything illegal.
 
Mel said:
Amateur-built aircraft get no exemptions for "N" number placement. The exceptions you are seeing come from the fact that many aircraft are certified before paint. At this point the "N" number is correctly placed. At paint, the number is moved to an illegal location.
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A buddy painted his own plane as he built before first flight with the N number under the tail and I was hanging around for the inspection and the location never came up.
 
I'd put 2" numbers right at the top of the Vertical stab. Very un-noticable to the uninitiated.
 
The RV-3 is the only RV that qualifies for 2" numbers.
45.22(b)(1)
 
"No person..."

n5lp said:
Despite the fact that is an illegal location, I don't see why your paint shop would balk. Sure they should inform you, but they wouldn't be doing anything illegal.
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Don't mean to pick nits here but the FAR is pretty clear. And yes, the paint shop would be doing something illegal. My main concern on an issue as small as this is that these are the things that invite a closer inspection. I can see an inspector thinking "If he can't get that right, I wonder what else is wrong."

Sec. 45.21 General.

(a) Except as provided in Sec. 45.22, no person may operate a U.S.-
registered aircraft unless that aircraft displays nationality and
registration marks in accordance with the requirements of this section
and Secs. 45.23 through 45.33.
(b) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may
place on any aircraft a design, mark, or symbol that modifies or confuses the
nationality and registration marks.

John Clark
RV8 N18U (3" numbers, forward of the HS)
"Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Several years ago, one of my 182's was in an avionics shop and had just gotten out of the paint shop...an FAA guy just happened to stop by on an unrelated matter, spotted an "irregularity" on my aircraft and left me a note to get it fixed before it flew again...he red tagged me.
 
whoa whoa whoa, you mean to tell me most all of the aircraft in the rv of the week ar in violation of the far's? how could there be this many violators and weve never heard anything before.:confused: this is a little more than a burnt out headlight.
 
Just looked at the current "RV of the week" and only saw one with the number under the HS.
 
Mel said:
The RV-3 is the only RV that qualifies for 2" numbers.
45.22(b)(1)
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this is more of what i was interested in.....seems 25 planes in the RVOTW (got tired of counting) had the numbers on the rudder or vs or both. and they were small characters..5 of them had numbers under the stab and several correctly placed but small characters...what is the required size for US aircraft that dont leave the country? I am i wrong in my thinking that i was going to put small characters on my plane. is the vertical group acceptable?
 
cytoxin said:
this is more of what i was interested in.....seems 25 planes in the RVOTW (got tired of counting) had the numbers on the rudder or vs or both. and they were small characters..5 of them had numbers under the stab and several correctly placed but small characters...what is the required size for US aircraft that dont leave the country? I am i wrong in my thinking that i was going to put small characters on my plane. is the vertical group acceptable?
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Amateur-built aircraft with a maximum cruise speed of <180 kts. CAS may display 3" numbers. The numbers may be 2" if the design is over 30 years old. Numbers may be on the vertical stabilizer and/or rudder. If they are on the fuselage, they must be between the trailing edge of the wing and the leading edge of the HS. See FAR part 45.22.
Sorry for the confusion. I thought you meant that most of the RVs had the numbers under the HS.
 
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N number location

Can I put my N number on the vertical even if the last two letters go onto my Rudder? Wasn't sure If I could have any part of the numbers on a moving part. I read the AC on it and the EAA certification guide and I cant find anything saying I cant do this but thought I'd run it by the masses first.
 
I did it....

No objections so far!

desktop%202.jpg

Photo extraordinaire by Peter Fruehling
 
N number placement?

I couldn't find any posts on this subject, and the new EAA 365 site was no help. I'm trying to find guidance on where our N-numbers must be placed on our planes.

When I went through the certification process, I remember reading the parameters somewhere. However, I can't find any reference to that now.

Seems to me that the number MUST be placed somewhere between the aft edge of the wing and the forward edge of the vertical stab, but that can't be right -- I've seen a whole bunch of planes with N-numbers on the VS or even rudder.

Anybody know the answer?

[Edit note: Thanks, Rosie. Not sure why this thread didn't come up when I searched though ...]
 
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N8RV said:
I couldn't find any posts on this subject, and the new EAA 365 site was no help. I'm trying to find guidance on where our N-numbers must be placed on our planes.
When I went through the certification process, I remember reading the parameters somewhere. However, I can't find any reference to that now.
Seems to me that the number MUST be placed somewhere between the aft edge of the wing and the forward edge of the vertical stab, but that can't be right -- I've seen a whole bunch of planes with N-numbers on the VS or even rudder.
Anybody know the answer?
[Edit note: Thanks, Rosie. Not sure why this thread didn't come up when I searched though ...]
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See post #12 just above.
The numbers must be between the wing and horizontal stab only if placed on the fuselage.

BTW the RV-3 and the RV-4 now qualify for the 2" numbers as the RV-4 design is now over 30 years young.
 
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Thanks, Mel. Painting is coming up next month and I'm in the process of designing the paint scheme. There are several places I wanted to consider for the N-number, but some of them were on the VS or rudder, and I was pretty sure I'd read that I couldn't do that.

All of my certification paperwork is out at the hangar, and I came up dry with searching the EAA's new site.

If the rudder is acceptable and legal, that may be right where it goes. Lower part of the rudder, 3" letters.
 
The number requirements change from time to time

The best you can do is check the FAA requirements at the time you are ready to paint and comply. Mine are 3" numbers vertical on the fin or vertical stabilizer which was legal at the time I had it painted. I don't check periodically to see if the FAA has changed the requirements. At one point the FAA was flip flopping on the requirement that all aircraft have 12" numbers and only if you crossed an international border so I designed 12" numbers into the paint scheme on my Archer II to just bite the bullet (original numbers from the factory were 3"). At that time it was common to see all kinds of numbers taped or painted on temporarily to get across the border. This coming August there is a race being organized in Canada by our most speedy rocket man Tom Martin and I'm afraid I'm going to have to slap on some kind of 12" numbers to participate - possibly white contact paper. In the mean time with many modifications the speed of our RV-6A is creeping up. Argh! It would be nice if - Oh well (sigh) ...

Bob Axsom
 
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Thanks, Mel and Bob, for your insights. It makes my planning that much easier ... :D
 
rather than starting another thread, maybe Mel can help me out here- I wanted to reserve an N number "619DS", which shows it should have been available 1/16/2010. it was a diamond 40 that was exported to canada a while ago. is there some time delay from when the previous reservation expires and when a new person can grab the nmber?

Thanks-
 
N619DS shows a purge date of 1/16/2010 so it should be available. Call FAA registration at 405-954-3116. They should be able to help. (You may need to talk with a supervisor.)
 
cytoxin said:
whoa whoa whoa, you mean to tell me most all of the aircraft in the rv of the week ar in violation of the far's? how could there be this many violators and we've never heard anything before.:confused: this is a little more than a burnt out headlight.
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Actually, many homebuilts (and some factory-built aircraft) have N numbers that don't meet the requirements of FAR Part 45. One year at the EAA convention I started on a "mission" to take pictures of all the illegal N numbers on homebuilts. I didn't make it through the entire homebuilt area before my memory card on my camera was full! There are LOTS of airplanes out there with N numbers that don't comply with the regulations. (I measured the N numbers on a factory-new Cirrus one day and found them to be out of compliance!)

The reason for this is many. First there's the issue Mel mentioned, where someone certificates an aircraft with no paint and temporary numbers that are legal, then when they paint the plane they get "creative" with N number placement and what not. Next there's the issue of an FAA inspector or DAR who either doesn't really understand Part 45 or just simply doesn't care. (This happened up here in this area just recently on a Rutan Defiant. The FAA issued an airworthiness certificate to the aircraft even though the numbers clearly didn't fit part 45. I would not have issued the certificate with numbers located in the way they were. The FAA did!)

But apparently the FAA puts this issue on the back burner for the most part. Of all the aircraft I've seen flying with non-compliant numbers I have never heard of anyone getting grounded solely for this reason. I don't think that means that we should all just ignore part 45, since the FAA could very well make an issue out of your numbers anytime they want. But it does indicate that they apparently feel they have bigger fish to fry.
 
frustrating regs....as usual

I've seen registration letters that probably conforms, and then a stripe or 2-tone run thru that makes it completely illegible.( breaking the 'reasonably contrasting' requirement)
I believe the canadian regs require EITHER 12" on the fuse, OR 6" on the fin and 24" under wing, if I may recklessly simplify.
The real comedy starts when the regs describing the letter STYLE.
they require a Roman letter, which has a serif, as in Times Roman.
So EVERY aircraft in Canada has the wrong style reg lettering!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(of course they MEAN 'GOTHIC' letters.)
They also allow italics up to 45 degrees!!!!! again which makes the letters almost illegible!

If I were painting, I'd do a layout of the proposed letters, superimposed on a digital pic of the fuse, and have the DAR sign off on it by mail or something!
 
YEP!

One of the interesting topics at our DAR seminars every year is "N" Numbers. We look at picture after picture of numbers and state WHY each one is illegal. But unless some one starts enforcing the regs, it will continue.
The bad part is that I have to explain to an applicant why I can't sign off on his numbers when he can produce many examples done just like he wants.
After I leave, whatever you do is between you and the FAA. But when I inspect, the number has to be legal.
 
Who's money is it anyway?

On a matter this insignificant and trivial when the feds start paying for a significant part of my plane I'll put that dang' number anywhere and any size they want, till then......
 
I have seen compliance Inspectors reject Reg#s

I have drawn up and painted hundreds of Registraion numbers, for the US as well as countries all of the world. I have seen Compliance Inspectors reject a Registration number over the stroke of the letter being .0125" to thin. When painted was the correct size after detailing the edge of the stripes and characters it made the stroke on one letter to thin. It all depends on the day and the inspectors mood. They can and will ground your plane over this. Any paint shop that would put on out of compliance work is asking for trouble from the feds. At least most if not all are not trying to meet export rules for a Chinese Aircraft which is top of right wing bottom of left wing as well as side of fuselage in both alpha-numeric and Chinese Characters on the wing. One wrong curly cure on the tic tac toe pattern of the symbol and you have said the wrong thing. Arabic as well.
 
AC 45-2D

Advisory Circular AC 45-2D has all the details on 'N' numbers display. Just google the number and enjoy!

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
flyboy1963 said:
I believe the canadian regs require EITHER 12" on the fuse, OR 6" on the fin and 24" under wing, if I may recklessly simplify.
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To say that was recklessly simplifying would be generous. :) CARs allow letters as small as 3" on the fin of an amateur-built in Canada, *if* the structure is too small to allow the 6" normal size. If you do this you must have under-wing lettering. But none of the RV's at my home field do.
The real comedy starts when the regs describing the letter STYLE.
they require a Roman letter, which has a serif, as in Times Roman.
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No. Being a Font Geek I must correct this. The CARs require "a Roman non-serifed font." Roman in this case doesn't mean Times Roman. It means Roman Letters, ie. A, B, C, etc. No French, Cyrillic, etc.

They also allow italics up to 45 degrees!
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Again, no. 35 degrees max.

If I were painting, I'd do a layout of the proposed letters, superimposed on a digital pic of the fuse, and have the DAR sign off on it by mail or something!
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Not a bad idea. Or you could just read the regs and work within them. Really, it's not that hard to meet the requirements. 6" letters fit easily on the tail if you span them onto the rudder.
 
My "N" number is my sons' birth date and his initials. I am going to display it large and proud.

N524AP
 
Of course, this clause is the one that everyone in Canada overlooks:

(p) where either one of the surfaces referred to in paragraph 222.01(1)(g) is large enough for display of marks meeting the size requirements of paragraph (o) and the other is not, full size marks shall be placed on the larger surface.
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Which in laymans terms means that RV's all must have lettering on the side of the fuselage, because there is room there to do so. Of course nobody follows this either.

Some References for Canadians:
CAR Regulation 202
CAR Standard 222
 
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