B

Bob Axsom

Well Known Member
Last year a fellow said he had his second LASAR Mag failure at appoximately 300 hours of service. I said that short MTBF caused me some concern. Today my LASAR Mag failed the mag check - time 306 hrs.

Bob Axsom
 
I know of a LASER mag that timing went nuts on a ruined a 300hr old IO-360. I'll pass on those babies.
 
Feedback requested from the guy with 2 at 300 hrs each

There was a fellow last yeat that had two of the mags fail after 300 hours on each one. As I recall he was at S'n'F last lear when the last one occurred and he was trying to get his hands on a LASAR timing tool. I believe he was going to install a different electronic egnition system. I would like to have the details on his failure mode(s). I have been working honey do's and disaster late freeze yard work all day so haven't gotten into the mag check failure fix yet. I have had good luck with the LASAR system and will stick with it for this cycle but I would like to know how the change worked out also.

Bob Axsom
 
Lasar failures

Bob, that fellow would be me. I'm not near my logbook, so I'm going on memory here and basing the hours more on when I recalled that they happened calendar-wise. I'm running an O360.

Failure #1 was around 350 hours, and was a partial failure of the left mag. During a ground mag check, the engine would slowly and a bit roughly die down when running on the left mag. I did not hear what the failure mode was, except that when I described it to Unison's engineer, he seemed to recognize it.

Failure #2 was around 650 hours, and was in flight. The engine was running normally, there was a fractional second power loss, and then power was restored albeit a little rough. I then noticed no tach indication (left mag sends out electronic tach signal), and higher egt's. I did a 180 and flew 10 minutes back to the airport. None of Unison's diagnostics could find this failure when applied to the plane. Unison thought the problem was in the box, so I sent that in and they said it checked out ok. I sent the left mag in, and they told me that the shaft inside it had broken. The difficult diagnosis was because the guts of the mag weren't even turning, a failure mode they hadn't contemplated I presume.

Failure #3 was at 740 hours, and was identical to #2, except that I was 1200 n.m. from home.

It would appear that they had some sort of torsional resonance in the shaft in the mag that wasn't contemplated during their testing, leading to fatigue failure. I believe they are redesigning or have redesigned the shaft. I typically run at 2300 to 2350 rpm in cruise, which shouldn't be outside of normal rpms to examine.

Unison was very good about covering the costs, all three replacement mags were at no charge (they are about $800 a pop).
 
Thank you so munch for the good information Alex. My failure is associated with the right non-sensor mag. the symptoms are very similar to your first mag failure.

Bob Axsom
 
This thread is very interesting to me, as the project -10 I recently bought already has the Laser system on it.

I had/have no knowledge about this system prior to ending up as an owner of it.

As I understand the Laser setup, it is basically a traditional magneto setup, but the timing is controlled by a black box that monitors the rpm, cht, and who knows what else, and then sets the timing automatically.

The short time before failures concerns me a lot. Alex mentioned that he thought there was a re-design of the shaft going on---------any idea of when this may have happened, and how do I determine if I have the old style units, or if I have the newer ones?? And, if the problem has been solved with this change.

Lastly, any input as to if I should just take the Laser off, and go with something else?? It would be a simple thing to do at this time, as there is no wiring done yet, nothing to re-do.

Mike
 
I wouldn't Remove it but...

My black box is not hooked ut to the CHT because I don't want the box to limit power to automatically protect the engine - I'll do that. There is a sensor magneto and a non-sensor magneto and the sensor magneto provides an input to the black box (controller). The other input is manifold pressure. The system requires a special timing box which was available from Van's for something in the $300-$400 range as I recall. You can buy a complete manual set from Unison and an interface test cable for running diagnostics using a lap top computer. The manual used to cost $75 with free updates for a year and the interface cable costs something like $250. They claim that the system can increase horsepower by someting like 8% - not verified by me but it has worked fine up until the failure of the right mag a couple of days ago.

I think Unison is commited to the system and improvements will no doubt evolve. To find out about your hardware configuration I would call the an talk to the customer support engineer.

Bob Axsom
 
Need help understanding ignition systems...

Would someone be so kind as to direct me to a thread or explain how to choose / understand engine ignition systems? What I want for my plane is reliable safe operation. From this thread, it sort of sounds like buying the most expensive system is not necessarily the best approach.

Any adfvice on how to choose ignition systems would be greatly appreciated. I am planning on getting a Superior XP-360 of some sort - the more conventional the better...

Thanks in advance,
 
Go with standard magnetos

If you are not trying to optimize performance the tried and true magnetos will never let you down. From your description that is exactly what you want. You cannot hand prop a LASAR ignition system for example. If you are flying along and kill the engine by running a tank dry and you have a dead battery you can restart it with the 1500 rpm windmilling prop but a dead battery is a no-start condition on the ground. If you get a dead battery on the ground and try to jump start it, the prop will spin it will not start for me. I used to fly a factory built plane to work every day in Los Angeles and in the 15 years it was good to be able to connect the car battery with jumper cables and keep the commute going. The culture is now sacrificing independent system types and accepting redundancy but reading between the lines I don't think you have bought into that. I think you would be most satisfied with standard magnetos.

Bob Axsom
 
Thanks

Bob, thanks for the reply. I already have the timing box, so that is not an issue.

There may be a comp hookup cable in there also, wouldnt surprise me.

My main concern is the reliability of the system-----extra HP/economy would be a nice plus, however the reliability is paramount.

My questioning is related to whether I should go ahead and use the system I already have--------after all, it is PAID FOR. Or should I just bite the bullet and go for another system, and sell the Laser.

I think maybe I should give Malon or Bart or the folks at Barrett a call on this.

Once again, thanks for the input.

Mike
 
Bob Axsom said:
You cannot hand prop a LASAR ignition system for example. If you are flying along and kill the engine by running a tank dry and you have a dead battery you can restart it with the 1500 rpm windmilling prop but a dead battery is a no-start condition on the ground. If you get a dead battery on the ground and try to jump start it, the prop will spin it will not start for me.
Click to expand...
Actually, Unison offers a version of the LASAR ignition that can be hand
propped with what they call a "Bush Kit", which includes a standard impulse
coupling on one mag.
 
Customer Support - Having a little trouble reaching them

I called every number I could find on the Unison website but have only been able to leave messages so far. Not very comforting. I hope it is because of the Sun 'n Fun interference with normal operations.

Bob Axsom
 
Well, I just spoke with Bart at Aerosport, and he was kind enough to spend a few minutes with me about this.

To sum it up, the early systems did have problems, electrical in nature, mostly a non issue now that they have redesigned things.

New system has an external relay mounted in the line from the mag, old one had the relay inside the mag. You can tell by a "bulge" in the wire bundle from the mag.

Barts suggestion was to go ahead and use what I have----new stuff----as it is already paid for, and to use all the sensors-----CHT, MAP. If I recall correctly, one of the prior posters said they did not use CHT.

Anyway, that is what I know for now.

Thanks again to Bart for taking the time to explain all this to me, and I am not even a customer---------

Mike
 
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Repair Info

Systems manufactured since 2000 are repairable but I have to get the manual (L-1503 I believe). My Mags also have the "in cable" component and the were manufactured in 2004 as indicated by the "04" in the first two digit positions of the serial number. Unison has contacted me and they needed the model number to give me the right manual. I e-mailed that information to Dave Conklin at Unison. For now I agree with what Bart told you, the performance of my LASAR system has been fine until the mag check failure a couple of days ago.

In talking with one of the people at Unison I learned the problem I experienced is probably due to the breaker points in the right mag. In normal LASAR operation the breaker points are not used but when the mag goes to normal mag operation during a electrical failure or a mag check the breaker points become the spark control device. That is certainly consistent with my experience. It started and ran normally until I selected the mags which forces the system into the backup electromechanical mag function. The left mag worked properly in this mode but the right mag was rough with rpms dropping drastically toward 1400 then continuing down at a much slower rate but total stoppage seemed likely. I noticed in the 500 hour maintenance the points are to be replaced. Imagine that, something mechanical requires maintenance. I can deal with that - things are looking OK for me.



Bob Axsom
 
Thanks

Bob Axsom said:
Imagine that, something mechanical requires maintenance. I can deal with that - things are looking OK for me.Bob Axsom
Click to expand...

Glad things are looking OK, thanks for the info.

After talking to Bart, and reading what you have posted, I am a lot more comfortable in keeping the setup as is.

Mike
 
L-1363C?

The manual for Magneto Maintenance and Overhaul sent to me by Unison is L-1363C. I do not feel real comfortable with this yet because the company makes LASAR and Non-LASAR magnetos and in a brief look I have not seen my specific model numbers in the manual. L-1500 is the big manual for the LASAR System and I am going to buy that to resolve the questions that I have.

Bob Axsom
 
L-1503 is the correct manual

I overcame some Apple interface problems by talking to the website manager and completed the order of the $100 master manual for the Lasar System. Web access was then granted and I found the the correct manual for the LASAR mag maintenance and overhaul is L-1503.

Bob Axsom
 
There still seems to be a little problem

Still trying to work the problem but there is no solution in sight at the moment. T-100 tool kit availability, repair Parts availability and even complete replacement mags are unknown regardless of money. It is not the same situation I experienced in 2004 when I was working through the timing problem from Lycoming. I'm concerned but still trying.

Bob Axsom
 
Bob, unfortunately, you are reaching the same point I did when I abandoned LASAR. It seemed that Unison was just not supporting the product. There have been no new developments in the product line for some time, and the shift from factory support to dealer support is not an improvement. I suspect that it is a failure business wise, since it was never widely adopted in the certified fleet.

Couple that with the obvious reliability problems that result from having both a mechanical and electronic system and we have a bad situation for the users.

I finally put my system on ebay, and went with Lightspeed, which has been flawless, and still enjoys the support (albeit a little cranky, maybe) of its inventor.

John
 
Thanks for the feedback John

As always it is always a pleasure to get your input. I went out to the hangar and pulled the non-sensor mag and brought it home to work on. I have been unable to get the T-100 tool kit but after I cut the grass tomorrow I'm going to go into it as far as I can with standard tools and make some if necessary. The common opinion I got out of Unison is the points probably need cleaning. Well we will see. Aircraft Scruce gave me a point kit price of ~$42 but they have to special order them. I got the L-1500 Master Manual by Fedex today and there is some good information in it and I can start down the distributer list and see if I can get needed items in a short time. I am not optimistic but we press on until we can't go anymore. The race at Taylor, Texas on May 19 looms large. If everything goes south I may be able to get some straight mags and set it up with them - it's not like I was a big threat anyway. The thrill of the race is the big thing for me.

I may switch to Lightspeed but that is a "slippery slope" as they say that leads to trashing the whole initial system design. I have been reading the backup alternator in the vacuum pump hole, etc. which could be organized into a reliable system but I sure hate to start over. My current impression is the LASAR system will probably not be in my plane next year ... barring some change in the way this train is going. I guess I can still hope but experience tells me I am going to have to make changes. How much of the Lightspeed hype translates into added kts with no other changes? Smoothness and realtime operating economy, etc. are not that important to me. I really don't want to buy another high power pipe dream.

Bob Axsom
 
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Bob Axsom said:
How much of the Lightspeed hype translates into added kts with no other changes? Smoothness and realtime operating economy, etc. are not that important to me. I really don't want to buy another high power pipe dream.
Click to expand...
Yet you're poking around with that clunky LASAR? :rolleyes: The slippery slope is the one you're already on!
 
Bob Axsom said:
Do you have any real information oh great wind.
Click to expand...
Nah, just messing with ya. Honestly I'd be surprised if you could MEASURE any difference in performance or economy going from LASAR to Lightspeed (this is just armchair engineering, but I stand by it!). :D

I do believe a properly installed Lightspeed EI with a fixed crank position sensor (flywheel magnets) is the most bulletproof, reliable ignition system available for aircraft engines (including mags!), but I see your point about having to redesign at this stage of the game.
 
Well, I think Dan is right, below 10K ft anyway, there is no measurable increase in performance. But, at 10K or thereabouts and above, and running LOP with fuel injection, you can increase your miles per gallon numbers. If you read the CAFE reports they presented data showing that advanced timing and LOP are synergistic. At 12,500 I see only 1 kt loss from running 75 degrees rich to running right at peak EGT, yet this is 1 gph less.

The big change I saw when I went from LASAR to the Lightspeed was at lower altitudes, my CHTs dropped 30 degrees, and even 40 in long climbs. I am convinced the LASAR over-advances the timing. This allowed me to close down my air intakes, which then helped in speed a tiny bit. You could get this benefit by using standard mags (fixed timing) as well.

The big draw for me was a total lack of moving parts. I am hoping that will translate to reliablity, but I won't know for another 1000 hours or so.

John
 
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Thanks Guys

I have had no problem with my LASAR system once I set the timing properly never mind its new, supplied by Lycoming on the new ~$20,000 engine run in a test cell and delivered with test data showing everything was OK - it was actually set around 60 degrees ahead of the required 25 degrees cylinder 1 compression stroke top dead center. I do experience the high CHTs mentioned but I can deal with that - I want the extra power. If you hook-up the "not encouraged" CHT connection, the controller will hold down the temperature but Unison tells me in the Master Manual L-1500 that that reduces the power and that also tells me it looses the advertized "up to 8% increase in horsepower" over standard magnetos.

The system LASAR has been very good to me. I will try to sustain it through this season anyway. The current product support from the manufacturer is very ineffective and I'm putting it kindly. In 2004 it was outstanding! To summarize the T-100 tool kit is not available from the sources I have tried - Unison, API and Aircraft Spruce - they are on indefinite backorder and Aircraft Spruce has four customers already waiting for theirs. The K3640 contact point kit requires special order and aircraft spruce said there is a 60 day lead time - API said they would have to special order also and they had no idea what the lead time would be. The 4770 non-sensor magneto in listed in the price list in the brand new subscripton supplied L-1500 Master Manual as $738 but the page was last updated in March 2006 and two calls to Aircraft Spruce for current price have resulted in "I'll get back to you on that" promises that were not kept. Anybody that has been in any kind of business exposure can recognize this as a bad situation. I do not believe that it is a bad system - quite the opposite - but my experience in the last few days has me convienced that owners are going to have to be very independently capable in order to sustain their LASAR Systems. For now I will try to do just that but in time I'm now looking at standard mags for my airplane.

Bob Axsom
 
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The Points Are Good

Inspection of the points with a good magnifying glass reveals proper function and brand new looking contact surfaces. They are not the problem.

Bob Axsom
 
Learning the Lasar

I find this thread interesting as I have the Lasar Mag on the left and Electroair on the Right on my IO 360. Today I picked up a little surging at all RPM ranges TOP, idle and mid-range. I am thinking it is an ignition problem. Its like something is cutting out or timing is changing every four seconds then returning. Its not rough, you just feel a little deceleration and tone difference. I suppose it could be air in the fuel lines also. Spark or fuel .......... the always dreaded question. I guess thats why I drive a diesel truck, to avoid this quandary.

I tried a little lean of peak operations, but it would begin getting rough shortly after peak and the Lasar Mag would dropout to point operation. The Lasar mag has always seemed like it was just along for the ride. I have found Electroair to be very responsive and I saw mike, the new owner, at Sun N Fun. Electroair is a good system and I would be surprised if it is involved in the surging.
 
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Jeff B said:
Interesting thread.... Several weeks after ordering my engine with LASAR mags, I had stopped by John Huft's hangar (not sure if you remember John, a long time ago), and John had both LASAR mags in a box and said "I'm done with that system, it's junk". I thought great, just what I needed, an ignition system that's broken before I even un-boxed it.

Fast forward 4 years, the system has operated flawlessly on my 7 with 287 hrs. I have modified my take off procedure to compensate for the higher CHT's. After initial climb out, I'll enrich the mixture to keep the CHT's at around 350, no more than 360 then lean back out for cruise. I'll continue to knock on wood and hope the system remains "reliable". That was my reason for the purchase to begin with, I thought it was a "reliable system". :rolleyes:

Jeff B RV7
www.westerncoloradotrade.net
EAA Tech Counselor - CFII/MEI - Transition Training
Click to expand...

The Lasar system does not advance the timing until 15 minutes after initial power up. I don't recall exactly, but it either doesn't advance at all or minimally during this period. This was to keep the climb temps manageable. I never did get an exact timing map for the system. I did wait until this time runs out to fine tune the leaning.
 
Jeff B said:
Interesting thread.... Several weeks after ordering my engine with LASAR mags, I had stopped by John Huft's hangar (not sure if you remember John, a long time ago), and John had both LASAR mags in a box and said "I'm done with that system, it's junk". I thought great, just what I needed, an ignition system that's broken before I even un-boxed it.

Fast forward 4 years, the system has operated flawlessly on my 7 with 287 hrs. I have modified my take off procedure to compensate for the higher CHT's. After initial climb out, I'll enrich the mixture to keep the CHT's at around 350, no more than 360 then lean back out for cruise. I'll continue to knock on wood and hope the system remains "reliable". That was my reason for the purchase to begin with, I thought it was a "reliable system". :rolleyes:

Jeff B RV7
www.westerncoloradotrade.net
EAA Tech Counselor - CFII/MEI - Transition Training
Click to expand...
HI Jeff

I sure do remember that conversation...very embarrasing to be badmouthing the system and then you say you have a brand new one.

I sure hope it continues to work for you.

John
 
Price of Model 4770 Non-Sensor Mag from Aircraft Spruce

Robin of Aircraft Spruce called yesterday with the promised information on the Model 4770 price and availability. $607.25 with a 30-60 day lead time. Unisons price list specifies $738 as the price and they insist on buying through distributers like API and Aircraft Spruce.

Bob Axsom

Trouble shooting status:

I opened up the rear of the mag for access to the breaker points and found them in like new condition. I started reinstalling yesterday and completed the physical installation on the engine and the timing. That part looks good. I will not be able to get back to it until tomorrow because of things that have to be done today. The mag itself still may be the problem but it may never have been at fault at all. I usually tie the connectors together with wire bundle lacing tape but after the timing check at during the condition inspection in March I did not tie the connector for the non-sensor mag. During the inspection I installed brand new REM38E Champion plugs which could have gone bad but no evidence of fouling was seen when I reexamined them last week. the ignition switch could be at fault or the interface wiring. Bottom line is I don't know yet.

Bob Axsom
 
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Bob, if you are still grounded, I have a 4770 (I believe that is the number - external relay, right non sensor, O360) you can borrow until you get things sorted out. Send me a private and I'll give you my cell no.
 
You are a Prince Alex

I am going to work through this for a little while and if the situation is unchanged I will fall back on the logic used by several people flying lightspeed systems - electronic ignition with a single mag backup.

Bob Axsom
 
Bob, no problem. Just let me know, it only takes putting it in a box and mailing it to you. I am going to sell the whole system, I've just been too lazy to put in on Ebay.
 
Switched trhe plugs from top to bottom same side

Switched trhe plugs from top to bottom same side same right mag test failure occured. This isolates the failure a little more and my thought is the RIGHT mag is bad at a location other than the points.

Bob Axsom
 
It was a bad Mag

I bought a slightly used (BEAUTIFUL CONDITION) non-sensor mag from Garry Sobek. I installed it, timed it and test ran it this afternoon. Works perfectly! Thanks Garry.

Bob Axsom
 
LASAR Ignition Users?

We have a Unison LASAR ignition system on our XP-360 180h. The mags went south at 165h on left and 170h on right. Although out of warranty, Unison came through last year and sent 2 new mags, as they should. Ordered a Bush kit Mag from Unison for back-up start capability if the processor fails. 10h later it has apparently failed. They want 4 weeks to inspect/repair. Pretty frustrating.

Question. Anybody else having problems with LASAR? Or are we the only ones to drink the Koolaid by buying this system?
 
No issues here

I have 220+ hours on my IO-360 A1B6 with LASAR ignition. No problems.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
I have one on my Mooney. At overhaul, we had problems with the new mags out of the box and the controller that had been on the plane for a while. About 150 hours later, all is OK (so far). Unison has been pretty good about supporting us, but I am not sure we're any better off than with regular mags, especially on a certified plane. The problem there is, no one understands them and you pay big $$ for them to monkey with the system.

I do always worry about getting stuck somewhere with a mag problem. Can't just throw a standard mag on there and fly home. That alone makes me think I'll seek another alternative for the RV.
 
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