Cadstat

Cadstat

Well Known Member
I can't hold the nose off when landing my -6A.
Here are the conditions:
6-7,000 FT DA, solo, 30 gallons fuel, C/S 320, 15-20 degrees flap, I'm 185 lbs.
I know I'm likely nose heavy anyway.

I touch down on the mains at 45-50 and then the nose falls within 2 seconds. I'd like to hold it off longer until some speed is gone but can't. Any suggestions?
 
If during touchdown and rollout you're holding the stick fully aft, and the nose is dropping quickly, then that's just the best you're gonna get, which is fine. No way to change that without taking weight off the nose of the plane. The only way you're going to hold the nose up longer is to add power, which of course works against the purpose of the landing roll....to get stopped.
 
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Touch down on the mains at a higher speed. Then you can keep the nose up longer. May be the same airspeed though. I am not sure you have a problem.

Let the nose down gently.
 
This is typical for a CS -6A.

They do have a lot more weight way up front...as far forward as you can get it!

If it doesn't have a lightweight Skytech starter, replace the rhinoceros Lycoming unit with one. Add a 20 lb toolbox to the baggage area as well.

Best,
 
Ron Lee said:
Touch down on the mains at a higher speed. Then you can keep the nose up longer. May be the same airspeed though. I am not sure you have a problem.

Let the nose down gently.
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The amount of time spent with the nose held off is not what's important. What we're getting at is the SPEED at which the nose cannot be held off any longer. Yes, landing faster will let you hold the nose off longer, but doesn't make any sense actually doing that....the nose will still come down at the same speed when the plane slows sufficiently. All you're doing is delaying the inevitable, and making the transition to the "nose dropping speed" on the ground rather than in the air...all with no effect on the speed at which you can still hold the nose up. Doing it on the ground is just going to lengthen your landing roll when you could have touched down slower and shortened it. The net result is the same, and you have not made the landing any safer, as that's the point of holding the nose off to the lowest possible speed. That's what the OP was getting at.

It's kinda like saying, "How do I hold the tail up longer doing a wheel landing in a taildragger?" Well, land faster! Yes, that will do it, but what's the point? The tail is still gonna come down at a certain speed when airflow diminishes.
 
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I noticed the same thing during flight testing my 7A solo with more than 1/2 tanks. I did two things:

When at that cg I do as Pierre suggests and carry ballast in the baggage compartment -- during testing it was usually 50lbs! I also found that limiting the amount of flaps used reduced the pitch down moment so I could keep the nose off at slower speeds. It sounds like you're already doing this to some extent. Depending on conditions this may or may not be appropriate but I always had way more runway than I needed and am not obsessed with making the first turn off if I have good reason to use more runway. I also know of some folks who like to retract flaps when the mains touch...I'm still messing around with a variety of landing techniques. It's all fun!

Jeremy Constant
RV7A 110 hrs
 
Ballast

Lots of good points. I used to carry 50 lbs of ballast in the rear seats of the 210 when by myself. I do have an bad habit of wanting to make the first taxi way.
I'll try 10 degrees of flap and 20 pound of ballast in the luggage bay and maybe coming in a little hotter.
 
John, I was kidding about landing faster EXCEPT....if you land at a low speed then the nose drops too hard immediately, then land faster so you can control the nose letdown. I really do not know what my comparable speeds are. I also do not usually worry about making the first available taxiway. I try to minimize stress on everything..including brakes.

What is your CG in this landing condition?
 
6a landing speed

Wow! If I landed that slow I don't believe, in all honesty, that my butt could stand the pounding, not to mention my tires and/or gear legs. Okay, I'm 50 pounds heavier than you but I wouldn't attempt a final approach that slow. Maybe it's the constant crosswinds in my area or it's my preferred sink rate to touchdown. 70 kts is much more comfortable and controllable. Just my two cents, oh, and I don't have any problem keeping the nose up for several hundred feet on rollout. Almost forgot, I use 30 degrees under most conditions unless by some chance it's dead calm, then I use 40.
 
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mrreddick said:
Wow! If I landed that slow I don't believe, in all honesty, that my butt could stand the pounding, not to mention my tires and/or gear legs. Okay, I'm 50 pounds heavier than you but I wouldn't attempt a final approach that slow. Maybe it's the constant crosswinds in my area or it's my preferred sink rate to touchdown. 70 kts is much more comfortable and controllable. Just my two cents, oh, and I don't have any problem keeping the nose up for several hundred feet on rollout. Almost forgot, I use 30 degrees under most conditions unless by some chance it's dead calm, then I use 40.
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I use 70 knots over the fence, and know that it better be real close to the ground at 60. With my C/S prop...............the airspeed bleeds from 60 real real quick! Flaps are anywhere from half to 40. Land without power & a bit of power........depending on mood.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
L.Adamson said:
I use 70 knots over the fence, and know that it better be real close to the ground at 60. With my C/S prop...............the airspeed bleeds from 60 real real quick! Flaps are anywhere from half to 40. Land without power & a bit of power........depending on mood.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
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These are my aim for speed and when I stick to it, I have the softest landing. I wonder if IAS is correct if it is showing 45-50mph for landing.
I know my 7A will stall and drop if it is showing that IAS.
 
Time

I bumped the nose wheel on landing the first 10 or so landings. I transitioned from a 150 and a cherokee. I think you will get it.......time.
 
Bavafa said:
These are my aim for speed and when I stick to it, I have the softest landing. I wonder if IAS is correct if it is showing 45-50mph for landing.I know my 7A will stall and drop if it is showing that IAS.
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That's my point! In most conditions that's way too slow. Mine stalls just under 50 and I want control. I don't want to drop it in as if i'm trying to catch a tailhook on the arresting cable. 70 over the fence produces controllable, smooth touchdowns!
 
First, I am not a 6A pilot, and I have a fixed pitch prop. That said, I do raise my flaps on touchdown and can keep the nose up several seconds longer, regardless of CG. It also locks you to the ground if you raise the nose more and seems to slow you quicker as you can raise the nose higher for aerodynamic braking. The last point may conjecture, but it seems that way to me. My landings are pretty nose-high, although not at stall speed. YMMV.

Bob
 
videobobk said:
First, I am not a 6A pilot, and I have a fixed pitch prop. That said, I do raise my flaps on touchdown and can keep the nose up several seconds longer, regardless of CG. It also locks you to the ground if you raise the nose more and seems to slow you quicker as you can raise the nose higher for aerodynamic braking. The last point may conjecture, but it seems that way to me. My landings are pretty nose-high, although not at stall speed. YMMV.

Bob
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Bob,
I grew up in Angola. I applaud your efforts with the students! In all my travels, I never heard of someone raising flaps on touch down. Would this be something you do over the numbers once the field is made? I'm one hand short with stick and throttle. Do you have an electric flap switch on the stick?
 
Cadstat said:
Bob,
I grew up in Angola. I applaud your efforts with the students! In all my travels, I never heard of someone raising flaps on touch down. Would this be something you do over the numbers once the field is made? I'm one hand short with stick and throttle. Do you have an electric flap switch on the stick?
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Since RV's pitch down with flap deployment, raising them, also wants to help keep the nose up. It's done after wheels make contact with the runway. At that point, it's assumed that your hand can be freed from the throttle. This is kind of a bragging point for manual flaps, as they can be raised a lot quicker. I have electric myself, and haven't tried it yet.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
Cadstat said:
Bob,
I grew up in Angola. I applaud your efforts with the students! In all my travels, I never heard of someone raising flaps on touch down. Would this be something you do over the numbers once the field is made? I'm one hand short with stick and throttle. Do you have an electric flap switch on the stick?
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It helps with braking on some low wings.

My Tiger with a similar configuration to the RVs has this placard -

"RAISE FLAPS TO INCREASE BRAKING EFFECTIVENESS"
 
Definitely want to wait until the mains are firmly rolling on the runway before raising the flaps.

I used to do it routinely in the Cherokee... the johnson bar flap lever made it really easy to do.

Some folks with electric flaps on an RV will install a type of flap switch that is spring-loaded only in the "down" position, so they can easily click the switch once to lock it in the "up" position during the landing rollout, and then click it to center-off position once the flaps are completely retracted. Of course that switch also carries a bit of hazard of accidentally hitting the up position when you don't want to retract the flaps, but if you're extra careful, it's a manageable risk.

In the RV-8 I fly, it has a standard spring-loaded up and down flap switch, and I rarely retract the flaps on landing rollout since doing that is still a bit of a distraction for me... besides, I've got to put them right back down again to exit the plane, since climbing out of the plane is a lot easier with the flaps down so as to not risk stepping on a flap.
 
Cadstat said:
Bob,
I grew up in Angola. I applaud your efforts with the students! In all my travels, I never heard of someone raising flaps on touch down. Would this be something you do over the numbers once the field is made? I'm one hand short with stick and throttle. Do you have an electric flap switch on the stick?
Click to expand...

The switch is between the throttle and mixture. I just raise the switch with my finger, and only after the wheels are on the ground. Works for me!

Thanks for the comment on the students. I am getting more out of it than they are. If you are at OSH, meet some of them at forum 9, 1PM on Tuesday.

Bob
 
Like others who have weighed in here, I have experience with both Cherokees with the manual 'Johnson bar' flaps, and more recently with a Grumman Tiger. With the Cherokee I loved being able to raise the flaps instantly on touchdown, at which point the airplane was definitively done flying, and brakes were instantly 100% more effective. With the Tiger it is even more important. I don't find that raising the flaps allows me to hold the nosewheel off any longer, as it takes a few seconds for them to come up, but it definitely allows me to keep the nosewheel unloaded to the greatest extent possible. Any braking without raising the flaps is guaranteed to generate enough nosewheel shimmy to make you aware of the error of your ways:)
 
Johnson Bar

On the Cherokee.....Also comes in handy on a hot day off turf with trees at the end. Gain speed flaps up and pull to 10 degrees after reaching a higher than normal rotation speed. Really gives you a lift!
 
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