airguy

airguy

Unrepentant fanboy
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I realize that a great deal of this has to do with pilot proficiency and practice - so that caveat being said, here is my situation. I'm realistically about a year from first flight and I need to make a decision relatively soon about erecting a new hangar at my house, or keeping the plane where it is now about 12 miles away. Runway where it is now is not an issue - but at my house (extremely convenient to me) I'll have only 1100' of good surface with powerlines at each end. I know takeoff won't be much of an issue, I'm thinking the landings might - I'm looking for folks that have operated on strips like this to give a little feedback on typical 9A operations (I have a CS prop, so I'll have a bit of airbrake available on final) on a short strip like this.

Doable? or not so much?
 
Hi Greg I wish I could give you some first hand experience but maybe this video will help. I was browsing youtube and found this video of a RV6 flying from his private 1000 foot strip. Might want to contact him to discuss. For those that watch the video please take needed precautions to those around you as there are a few graphic words used. :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZThhf9-98Y


Bill
 
William said:
Hi Greg I wish I could give you some first hand experience but maybe this video will help. I was browsing youtube and found this video of a RV6 flying from his private 1000 foot strip. Might want to contact him to discuss. For those that watch the video please take needed precautions to those around you as there are a few graphic words used. :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZThhf9-98Y


Bill
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I think his passenger was close to killing him!

That second and third bounce must have been rough!
 
Conservative

I certainly would wait to move to an airport with the short of a runway. On the first few flights you want options, longer runways gives you options! I would stay at the airport you are at until you have accumulated time in the plane and have short field operations down.

Everything is about risk management, trying to do the first flight from such a short runway does not seem like good risk management.

Cheers
 
Hey Greg,
I think there is significant risk involved, especially with obstructions on both ends. I typically pull off at 1400 ft from end of the paved threshold, but that requires a fair amount of braking and I don't touchdown on the END of the runway.
 
To clarify - there was no intent of moving the airplane into the new location and finishing the build and Phase I from there. The plane will be finished in it's current location and Phase I will be conducted from there with plenty of runway. My situation is that I'm about to build a workshop there at my house and I'm trying to make the decision about whether or not to make it bigger and include hangar space, for use during Phase II, with that short runway.

I'll have to re-assess that short runway idea. My father-in-law owns the adjacent (vacant) lot, I might be able to buy that from him and put in a corner-to-corner diagonal runway that would be closer to 1400' and powerlines only at one end. Then again, I may just drive the 12 miles to it's current location...
 
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1100' with obstructions would be pushing my limits.
I have 1500' with clear approaches and at times, especially with a strong crosswind, I get quite a workout.
I realize you are talking RV-9 and I fly a -6. but I still wouldn't be comfortable with your proposed strip.
 
runway

Greg,

Give serious thought to your question and maybe not spend the money on a hangar just yet. My strip is 2000 feet long and there has been a time or two that I hoped I was going to make it (wet grass, frost, etc.). I can land the RV8 in 700 feet almost every time, but every now and then I'll use up 1200 feet. My only explanation is the direction of the wind. If it is directly on my nose, I can stop in 600 feet. Any deviation from right on the nose increases my landing distance......even if the wind is quartering but not a direct crosswind. A direct crosswind will put me at the 1000 to 1200 foot mark. 1100 feet is short especially if you have to descend over powerlines. Once you get the hang of your airplane and can wear it like a glove, you'll probably have no trouble on a strip that is 1100 feet long. Good luck.
 
Toobuilder said:
How close and high are the power lines?
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Standard residential power pole height, I'm guessing 25'. At one end they are right on the threshold and about 70' from the threshold on the other.

I've heard enough - I'll scratch the home/runway plan for now and pursue something else. I guess a miniature airpark is just not in the cards for me...
 
Sounds like a perfect runway... for a Zenith CH-701/750 ;)

About 900' too short for me in an RV with those powerline obstructions. Even without obstructions at both ends, I'd want a minimum 1500-1600' and the wind straight down the runway.
 
airguy said:
Standard residential power pole height, I'm guessing 25'. At one end they are right on the threshold and about 70' from the threshold on the other.

I've heard enough - I'll scratch the home/runway plan for now and pursue something else. I guess a miniature airpark is just not in the cards for me...
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Well, you have a couple things going for you with the C/S prop, great airfoil of the -9 and the trike config will really let you rotate nose high on landing. I have flown many sub 60MPH approaches in a -9A with a fixed prop, so you could really drag one in with a C/S, I imagine. The 1100 foot length should not be any issue at all, but the power lines add some excitement, for sure. I don't think I would rule it out completely, but you will certainly have to be on your game.

The one thing about situations like these is that if you get it figured early, you will adapt to a "new normal". My home strip is considered by some to be "challenging" (not as bad as yours, though), but it is now no problem at all. It will either kill you or make you a better pilot. Up to you to decide if the education is worth the risk.

Of course, if any Alaskan Cessna 180 or 206 drivers read this thread they will likely be laughing their backsides off.
 
Its a 9 not a six!

Hi Greg,

We regularly fly out 9 with CS prop into grass strips, you can get it down and stopped within 200 feet with practice. Your issue is the power lines and it depends how for these are from the end of the strip.

As the other guys have said practice, practice, practice until you are proficient at controlling the speed on approach. Six's and 9s are completely different animals you can do things with a 6 you cant with a 9 and vice versa.
 
Hey Greg,

Power lines can be moved? Put underground or I have seen where the overhead lines basically dead ended and two poles taken out for a runway. It appeared to me the section that was taken out, the lines did not go underground just stopped so I would have to assume the lines were fed from both directions. No idea what it may cost? Just a thought. Possible move one end which ever suites your most predominant winds?

I'm looking at some land and some day hope to have my own strip. There are power lines on one end. Before I decide to buy, I will be checking into the cost of having them put underground. Good luck!
 
Greg,

I know you have scrapped the short (to me) runway plan for now, but when you consider it again another data point to think about is the density altitude issues there in Midland, according to Weathermeister the DA at MAF at 10 p.m. tonight is still over 5000'. Seems like most of the folks talking about short strips were much closer to sea level.
 
As so many others have said ....

... 1100' is simply too short for typical, day-in/day-out RV use. Though the Nine and Nine-A do have a lower stall speed and can land slower, the Nine's wing also floats a l-o-n-g way with just a little too much speed on final. IMO even the 1400' would be to short for daily use. I LOVE the way my 9-A flies, and I'm very confident after 70hrs of flying time, but I would want 2000' minimum for any strip I intended to use on a regular or daily basis.
 
Once again, we are applying our own prejudices to this issue. Lets stick to the facts first. Any RV built can get in and out of a 1000 foot strip, and the -9 can do much better than that. I know this because two of the runways on my airport are 1600 feet long and I rarely overshoot the intersection (800 feet) with any airplane I fly, including the Hiperbipe, RV-8 and yes, the -9A. Heck, I know a guy who flies a Barron in and out of a 1000 foot strip!

The only variables here are individual skill (which is a constantly improving thing, hopefully), and the real nature of the power lines (which sounds "sporty", I agree).

But we're not flying regional jets here - RV's are plenty capable of very short field performance. If you're not up to the task of a sub 2000 foot strip at this point in your flying, good on you to recognize that, but don't rule it out forever. And if you do, don't blame it on the airplane!
 
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25' power lines? Go under. :)

Rupester said:
...I'm very confident after 70hrs of flying time, but I would want 2000' minimum for any strip I intended to use on a regular or daily basis.
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Understand that 70 hrs is nothing...especially if you haven't rigorously worked on maneuvering the airplane throughout the performance envelope and practiced multiple short field landings, power off landings, etc. on EVERY flight. These are skills you must WORK on. Going out and flying straight and level for an hour, maybe doing a stall or two to make yourself feel good about "profiency", and then coming home and doing one landing with a 1000' float does not build up skills very fast. I'd say this decribes many pilots. After 1,000 short field landings where you've carefully pushed your skills to minimum safe approach speeds, minimum floating, and touching down near a selected spot...you'll have a different perspective.
 
Hi Greg,

Here is another idea. While you are perfecting your max performance landings why don't you enquire about putting the power lines underground at the normal approach side. That may make enough difference to help if the cost is not too expensive.

I would be talking to neighbours before you spend any money.

It would be nice to step outside to go for a fly and maybe you would save hangar cost, but 12 miles down the road is still pretty good.

Cheers

Julian 120316
 
J.Coles said:
Hi Greg,

Here is another idea. While you are perfecting your max performance landings why don't you enquire about putting the power lines underground at the normal approach side. That may make enough difference to help if the cost is not too expensive.

I would be talking to neighbours before you spend any money.

It would be nice to step outside to go for a fly and maybe you would save hangar cost, but 12 miles down the road is still pretty good.

Cheers

Julian 120316
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There's a not-too-bad alternative as well, a guy across town flies ultralights and a Cessna 150 off a grass strip, but the strip needs some work. I think I'll see if I can convince him to let me share that strip if we can get the strip up to a decent standard. That ones about 3500' with no obstructions and only about 3 miles away.
 
airguy said:
There's a not-too-bad alternative as well, a guy across town flies ultralights and a Cessna 150 off a grass strip, but the strip needs some work. I think I'll see if I can convince him to let me share that strip if we can get the strip up to a decent standard. That ones about 3500' with no obstructions and only about 3 miles away.
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That sounds like a really good solution to me.
 
Mel said:
That sounds like a really good solution to me.
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Spoken like someone who has not been spoiled by having a hangar and runway in their yard. Once you have that, it's hard to go back. At this point, I'd find going across the street to get to my airplane an inconvenience, let alone a drive of several miles.
 
Why doesn't anyone install some arrestor cables on their short strips ? Ok seriously though I agree that it isn't about capability it's about your choice of safety margin.

I remember one day just after lift off I didn't like the sound of my motor. I pulled the throttle out and landed straight ahead. I fly out of 9k ft paved runway with fields all around it. It was no big deal but I thought a lot about what if I was flying out of a short field.

When I went to the vans factory in Oregon everything has trees on either end of the runway and they were 3-5k ft long. (Just some of the runways I landed) There is just a lot more stress looking at an obstacle at the end of a runway. Ok I'm spoiled. But I figure with 9k and rv performance I am always able to make a runway- example- 300 ft high I could still slip and land straight--at least in the pattern. It's a nice feeling
 
erikpmort said:
...I remember one day just after lift off I didn't like the sound of my motor. I pulled the throttle out and landed straight ahead. I fly out of 9k ft paved runway with fields all around it. It was no big deal but I thought a lot about what if I was flying out of a short field...
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I fly over open desert for the most part, so trees, mountains and towns kind of freak me out. When I have to fly into the Los Angeles basin and look at some of that stuff (i.e. swiming pools, houses, crowded streets, power lines everywhere, etc), it really gets my attention. You loose an engine on short final or just after departure and you're going to land on someone's back porch- yet people do it day in, day out.
 
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Put power line underground?

If it is a residential power line, would the power company put 150 feet of it underground for you? Hopefully it would be on the best end for winds.

Just a thought.
 
BillL said:
If it is a residential power line, would the power company put 150 feet of it underground for you? Hopefully it would be on the best end for winds.

Just a thought.
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They'll do anything I want - for a price. In this case they want $35,000 special construction cost to bury that line for me. I didn't consider that to be a reasonable cost and I declined their offer.
 
I've found that those "quotes" are often wildly variable, and often attached to some of the most mundane tasks. Trenching, for example, might be outsourced for a substantial reduction in price. Find out where all the cost are and see if you can do them on your own. Also, it sometimes helps to have someone on the "inside" to get you a better quote. Not suggesting anything dishonest, but sometimes the initial quote is just to see if you will bite.
 
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