Status
Not open for further replies.
frankh

frankh

Well Known Member
I been following this since Yesterday morning when it happened.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/breakingnews/2008/02/plane_crash_near_albany_kills.html

Quite a bit of conjecture here but

From the photos (no scrapes on the ground) it looked like it spun in. I do know the Columbia 4 place is not recoverable from a developed spin...It was IFR all around here when this happened so my guess is that somehow the pilot got disoriented and maybe stalled,spun and was unable to recover.

That would be tough to do in IMC I guess the only indication would be the ball skided off to the right.

Frank
 
The Columbia design incorporated features to allow it to meet the spin resistant criteria in FAR 23.221. If an aircraft is shown to be spin resistant, then there is no requirement to show that it can recover from a spin. See FAR 23.221:

(2) At the applicant's option, the airplane may be demonstrated to be spin resistant by the following:

(i) During the stall maneuver contained in ?23.201, the pitch control must be pulled back and held against the stop. Then, using ailerons and rudders in the proper direction, it must be possible to maintain wings-level flight within 15 degrees of bank and to roll the airplane from a 30 degree bank in one direction to a 30 degree bank in the other direction;

(ii) Reduce the airplane speed using pitch control at a rate of approximately one knot per second until the pitch control reaches the stop; then, with the pitch control pulled back and held against the stop, apply full rudder control in a manner to promote spin entry for a period of seven seconds or through a 360 degree heading change, whichever occurs first. If the 360 degree heading change is reached first, it must have taken no fewer than four seconds. This maneuver must be performed first with the ailerons in the neutral position, and then with the ailerons deflected opposite the direction of turn in the most adverse manner. Power and airplane configuration must be set in accordance with ?23.201(e) without change during the maneuver. At the end of seven seconds or a 360 degree heading change, the airplane must respond immediately and normally to primary flight controls applied to regain coordinated, unstalled flight without reversal of control effect and without exceeding the temporary control forces specified by ?23.143(c); and

(iii) Compliance with ??23.201 and 23.203 must be demonstrated with the airplane in uncoordinated flight, corresponding to one ball width displacement on a slip-skid indicator, unless one ball width displacement cannot be obtained with full rudder, in which case the demonstration must be with full rudder applied.
Click to expand...

The type of design changes required to meet spin resistant criteria (e.g. limit rudder authority) may make it more difficult to recover from a spin, if you are unlucky enough to get in one.

Given the design changes from the Lancair ES to the Columbia, the spin recover characteristics of the Columbia are not relevant to a discussion of the Lancair ES.
 
I know nothing about plane crashes, but the actual plane looks to be in pretty fair shape for crashing from a spin, and or disappearing from 13000 feet. The fues, tail and wings arent in that bad a shape. Odd, what a sad day. We all work so hard and enjoy the ride.....sad to see fellow pilots/builders fall. Thoughts and prayers to thier families.
 
That's a sobering photograph.

Do any of you in Oregon recall what the freeze level and type of moisture was? I'm wondering if icing didn't play a larger part in the accident as he was racing to climb out of it.
 
Last edited:
RickWoodall said:
... but the actual plane looks to be in pretty fair shape for crashing from a spin....sad to see fellow pilots/builders fall. Thoughts and prayers to thier families.
Click to expand...
Huh...

The tail cone was broken off, the wings were both snapped forward and off, the engine was canted to the right and the top was ripped off. The only reason all the parts are there in one neat pile is because it went straight in.

Most accidents happen at a glancing blow to the earth, thus parts are scattered all over the county.

The truth of it is, no plane would survive that kind of impact.

Ditto on the prayers to their families.
 
N941WR said:
Huh...

The tail cone was broken off, the wings were both snapped forward and off, the engine was canted to the right and the top was ripped off. The only reason all the parts are there in one neat pile is because it went straight in.

Most accidents happen at a glancing blow to the earth, thus parts are scattered all over the county.

The truth of it is, no plane would survive that kind of impact.

Ditto on the prayers to their families.
Click to expand...

And generally, the downhill velocity of a spin (if it was a spin), is much less than a dive, or spiral dive.

L.Adamson
 
frankh said:
That would be tough to do in IMC I guess the only indication would be the ball skided off to the right.

Frank
Click to expand...


If the T&B was on the left side of the panel the ball would be left in a spin, doesn't matter if the plane was spinning left or right.
 
Mike is right

asav8tor said:
If the T&B was on the left side of the panel the ball would be left in a spin, doesn't matter if the plane was spinning left or right.
Click to expand...
Many years ago there was a test done on, I believe it was a Robyn aerobatic aircraft. They placed turn & bank instruments on both sides of the instrument panel. In a spin, the balls always went to the outboard side of the aircraft regardless of the spin direction.
 
Flat Spin

We had a similar crash here in AZ with a Lancair 360. The pictures were very similar. The witnesses of the 360 crash said the plane was very flat as it was coming down as the demonstrated with a model. They were low on fuel, aft CG with two heavy people and were doing wingovers when the engine failed. Only 6 gallons were found in the inboard wing.

This crash appears to also be a flat spin. Not sure how they would get in that if they still had power. Doesn't matter really. Very sad.
 
Well below 13000!

Phil said:
That's a sobering photograph.

Do any of you in Oregon recall what the freeze level and type of moisture was? I'm wondering if icing didn't play a larger part in the accident as he was racing to climb out of it.
Click to expand...

Don't know exactly that day, but the freezing level has been around 3000' for months! I have been grounded by lousy weather all winter. My IFR rating does me little good when the freezing level is below the MEA around here. I am sure he must have been in clouds below freezing.

Duane

Near Portland, OR.
 
I found this surface observation in the historical section of WeatherUnderground.

Observation Location: Albany, OR
Date: Feb 8, 2008
Time: 10:15 AM
Temp: 6.0 ?C
Dewpoint: 4.0 ?C
Humidity: 87%
Barometer: 30.33 in
Ground Visability: 7.0 miles
Surface Wind: SSE 17.3 mph Gust 20.7 mph
Sky Condition: Overcast
 
Lancair ES Reg. #N329BW

If any of you wish to do a little amateur investigation work you might want to go to: (www.flightaware.com). You may have to register to get into the website, but it is free.

On the opening page in the left hand column enter the registration number "N329BW". That will bring up the filed flight plan. Then click on "live flight track" and you can see what happened to the flight, the climb rate, altitudes, ground speed and the coordinates the aircraft reached at one minute intervals and then make your own conclusions. The apparent freezing level in the flight area was 4,000 ft. My speculation is that it loaded up with ice, reached a stall then entered a flat spin and didn't recover until the Willamette Valley hit him.
 
Yes

I forgot to put the icing in as my conjecture but I don't see how he was avoiding ice that day...But yes, load up with ice, try to maintain alt and the ASI drops like a stone,

Stall, then spin...Its a classic IMC scenario.

Very sad inded, I can honestly say though that ther is no way I would have been flying in those conditions..

Frank
 
Sobering ...

Jaknjoan said:
If any of you wish to do a little amateur investigation work you might want to go to: (www.flightaware.com). You may have to register to get into the website, but it is free.

On the opening page in the left hand column enter the registration number "N329BW". That will bring up the filed flight plan. Then click on "live flight track" and you can see what happened to the flight, the climb rate, altitudes, ground speed and the coordinates the aircraft reached at one minute intervals and then make your own conclusions. The apparent freezing level in the flight area was 4,000 ft. My speculation is that it loaded up with ice, reached a stall then entered a flat spin and didn't recover until the Willamette Valley hit him.
Click to expand...

I must admit though that I am not sure about the false altitude reporting at the beginning.

Fly safe(ly)!

James
 
Be careful basing too much on Flightaware. I have come home to see the track log of my own flights and noticed that some of the data hacks are clearly in error. That is, I have seen a few where the track shows me at 10000 feet, then 9200, then 11000 feet, etc., when I was in smooth air, on autopilot, parked at 10k.
 
Looks like a very low groundspeed, nose low spin, I agree. Both wings broken forward with leading edge damage, nose planted in the ground, tail failed over the top, and the whole thing then broke off at the firewall and settled down.

As for flightaware - anytime it detects a missing altitude block, it defaults to the filed cruising altitude, hence the initial departure altitude - he was too low to get a clean transponder return.
 
Weather that day

As for the weather, I was a passenger on a Delta flight # (cant remember the number) that day from Cincinnati Ohio to PDX we landed at 11:56 (less than hour before the accident) I remember looking out the window thinking how thick the clouds were. We punched in somewhere over the Cascades and I didn't see the ground until on final over Pearson Airpark. I was thinking the whole time that I was glad I wasn't flying that day, even IFR there would be no way to avoid Ice as the tops where so high.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.