brian

brian

Well Known Member
I got an email this morning from a Phil Penny at Belvoir Media Group, claiming that Kitplanes magazine owns the homebuilt plane vendor directory spreadsheet I created this fall from various sources, mainly the Internet. He claims it's theirs because I used similar codes as they did in their "pay-per-view" directory, like "wf" for wood & fabric, "m" for metal, etc. I guess he thought I should have used "Z" for metal and "QP" for wood & fabric. He also objected to the fact that my directory has data similar to theirs. Well, I hope it's similar; otherwise someone has incorrect data; a plane's wingspan, for example, is a rather fixed value.

It's bad enough that these people are so cheap they even charge subscribers to view things on their web page, but this really takes the cake.

Phil threatened to sue me if I don't take it down, and I told Phil it wasn't theirs or copied from theirs, and I won't be taking it down. So, now he's "referring this to our legal counsel". Apparently, there is no limit to their greed.

If anyone wants a copy of it, I suggest getting it now. Also, several people have given me updated info to put into it, so if you know of any incorrect or missing data, please let me know, and I will update it with that info.

I'm only on a couple lists, but if you're on other homebulder lists, you might want to forward this URL to other lists you are on, so more people can access the directory while it's still available (just in case they are successful if getting it removed).

I put a lot of work into this, as a resource that we can all keep up to date and share. It's a shame there are people and companies like this out there to harass people who are trying to do something decent for everyone.

The directory is at

http://brian76.mystarband.net/misc.htm#directory
 
Threats of lawsuits for things like this often backfire- we all remember what this did to a certain alternate engine supply company and a certain engine monitor company.

Marc Cook (KP Editor) is often on VAF. Maybe he can calm down Mr. Penny. Bad word can spread pretty quick on the net.
 
Mere collections of factual information aren't subject to copyright, nor are obvious grouping/ordering schemes (e.g., fixed-wing/rotorcraft, alphabetical order, etc...). As an example, a telephone directory isn't copyrightable.

It sounds like this guy is blowing smoke & I'm sure his lawyers will tell him that.

I'd tell him to go pound sand in the most unpleasant way I could think of.

Thanks for telling us this - I buy Kitplanes at Fry's each month. That will now stop.
 
Phil threatened to sue me if I don't take it down, and I told Phil it wasn't theirs or copied from theirs, and I won't be taking it down. So, now he's "referring this to our legal counsel".
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I suspect you received a harassment email just to see if you could be spooked into pulling the directory. More than likely you won't hear anymore about it. I recall Kitplanes Magazine raised a stink a while back because somebody was using the "kitplanes" word in some publication or web site. They claim a copyright for "kitplanes"; I always thought it was a generic term.

I had a similar situation several years ago from the "RV Journal", a mag for land yacht RVs, threatening me with legal action if I continued to use "The RV Journal" as the title for my website. I never heard from them again.
 
Brian - Do we have your permission to place copies of your spreadsheet on our own web sites? It would be especially useful to get copies on some sites outside the USA. I'd be happy to post a copy on my web site. I live in Canada, so that should slow them down a bit.
 
I doubt he is going to go to federal court and sue you. No lawyer would take that on contigent (spelling?) and he would have to pay all up front.
 
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Kevin Horton said:
Brian - Do we have your permission to place copies of your spreadsheet on our own web sites? It would be especially useful to get copies on some sites outside the USA. I'd be happy to post a copy on my web site. I live in Canada, so that should slow them down a bit.
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You bet, Kevin. Feel free to do so. If I get more updates to it from users, I will send you a copy.

Best Regards,
brian
 
brian said:
It's a shame there are people and companies like this out there to harass people who are trying to do something decent for everyone.
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It's doubly shameful when the company involved harrasses people in the community that keeps them in business.

Kitplanes, are you listening?
 
I uploaded your spreadsheet to my Google Docs and Spreadsheets. Now if everyone does something similar... :)
 
A simple request.

Brian--------I cant seem to find the e-mail address for Mr Penny.

I have tried Google, and come up with

[email protected]

for Marc Cook, editor in chief, and I also found

http://www.belvoir.com/contact/index.html

for the Belvoir group, but nothing specifically for Mr. Penny.

Would you please post it here, so I can send him a message??

Thanks, Mike
 
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I started getting the harrassing renewal notices for my Kitplanes subscription about three months ago. That means I probably only have about three months left before it actually runs out! :eek: I have been on the bubble as to whether I want to renew or not. I don't really get that much out of it anymore. This is just one more reason to let the subscription lapse. I'd rather send the money to Doug (already have in fact). I've been on this site for over a year now and just noticed the "Donate yearly (please)" link about a month ago.
 
I generally purchase a copy of KP each month at the local airport, but no longer if KP is THAT myopic . . .

Cheers,
Greg.
 
Kitplanes is a worthless rag. Sport aviation has many more usefull articles ! The content in my proffesional opinon is very amature.
 
Brian - I finally looked at the spreadsheet - nice job. That is a huge amount of work.

I don't want to try to figure out whether it violates KP's copyright or not. Nor do I want to pontificate on how KP is shooting itself in the foot here by biting the hand that feeds it. It is quite possible to be right in a court of law, but wrong in the court of public opinion.

But, is it possible that some of the info in the spreadsheet was copied from the KP database? Like number of completions, or estimated cost? I can't imagine where that data came from, if not from the KP database. If so, I can understand why they might be a bit miffed. Not that this should justify a threat of legal action though.

Maybe the right answer is to review the spreadsheet and remove any info that was only available from the copyrighted KP database.

I like the way that KP has improved over the last couple of years. It is a crying shame to see their owners do something this short-sighted. I really doubt this started with KP themselves. But, in the end, it doesn't matter where it started, if it doesn't get stopped.
 
Kevin Horton said:
But, is it possible that some of the info in the spreadsheet was copied from the KP database? Like number of completions, or estimated cost? I can't imagine where that data came from, if not from the KP database. If so, I can understand why they might be a bit miffed. Not that this should justify a threat of legal action though.
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Kitplanes publishes their guides each year. It distinguishes Kitplanes from other publications. At the end of the day, it's a BUSINESS. Let's call it what it is.
 
Guys, this is a post I made on the RV List. I know Brian as a good guy and a builder so please know I'm not flaming him at all, just trying to take a different look at it...I also know the Kitplanes guys as well and I'm fairly sure they wouldn't take thsi stance out of the blue as it were.

Cheers,
Stein.

POST BELOW:

Guys,

Before everyone gets too carried away try to look at this pragmatically. This obviously is a mis-understanding that has gotten WAY out of control. While Brian is a good guy, he's obviously emotionally attached to his work (that's not a bad thing). The result of this is his initial and follow on responses to inquiries was less than usefull ("up yours" gets you nowhere) in settling any confusion and probably didn't help the situation out any.

My point is this....I'm not attacking Brian in anyway, nor Defending the other guys. What I am pointing out is that what probably could have been taken care of with some thoughtfull and factual emails/letters back and forth has grown beyond what it should have. Their initial request was sent via email, which is hardly a legal "served" paper complaint - they needed to be educated, but that has to happen in a polite and proper way - even if the initial complaint wasn't so nice. You always get more with honey than with vinegar. My opinion is that an initial response should have perhaps been crafted less defensively and listed more historical facts listing the past development of said data.

As someone who is in the middle of a legally complex aviation "thing" right now, I've learned some VERY important lessons. #1 is that "we" as builders and business people are very emotional people and are emotionally attached to most everything we do. Lawyers on the other hand have a good talent of remaning emotionally detached from issues they are involved in - which is a very good thing when you need them on your side. You'll notice that instead of responding to the "up yours" email the guy politetly said he'd forward it to legal counsel - why? - because they can take a completely un-emotional look at it. Something that is nearly impossible for us to do personally.

Anyway, I'm not defending either person. I know Brian to be a decent person so I'm fairly confident he didn't go into this trying to step on anyones toes. Conversely, I know the guys at Kitplanes (as both a builder and a business) and I can say that I also know they are very good people that truly care about homebuilders. When is the last time you saw a Cessna 140, Bonanza, 172, Restored Aeronca, or other certificated plane as their cover story? I've found EAA really starting to diverge from the "E" (experimental) part of their business - but that is their choice and marketing strategy. After working with the Kitplanes guys I can say that they are truly listening to the community and trying to craft a magazine for and about builders...not the guy who spent a gagillion $$'s restoring his Comanche (or whatever). I know executives at both magazines and while they each have their own "view of the world", I can say both are decent sets of people.

Well, in closing I'm hoping cooler heads can prevail here because no good ever comes of things like this other than a lot of bad press, hurt feelings, mis-understandings and truly everyone looses. I'd urge both sides here to step back, take a few deep breaths and re-evaluate the process they are going through. I hate to see honest builders like Brian getting stepped on for something that might have been able to be avoided, as well as I hate to see the guys at Kitplanes being overly aggressive, because it's not their sole purpose or nature...

Just my 2 cents as usual, and no ill will towards either party, I respect them both.

Cheers,
Stein.
 
Marc is a good guy in my experience. Mr. Penny, I don't know him. A polite letter from him to Brian might have been received better.

I still buy issues of KP on the newsstand when something interesting comes up. KP has gotten much better since Marc took the reins. On the other hand, Sport Aviation has steadily declined over the same time.

If threats of lawsuits are the first response from Kitplanes over something like this, well, I won't be buying any more issues either. Give them a chance to redeem themselves first however.
 
email not the way

I know from dealing with a crooked Canadian alternative engine company that email is not the way to handle a matter such as this. The best way is a phone call to discuss the situation. I'm sure that it can be worked out.
 
I"m going to subscribe for the first time this year to "Kitplanes" due to the increase in RV related articles, Dan Checkoway's column and the experimental advertisements I can't find anywhere else. I'm pretty sure when I was cutting out(and pasting in the plane) lots of EFIS screens-- they were out of KP.

I borrow these from my father who has subscribed for years and I grab them off his desk or out in the hangar.

I also look forward each year for the "spreedsheet" issues in question. Lots of knowledge there, and recently while sitting at El Monte's airport cafe, I could talk knowledgably (sp?) about Velocity's,(after watching one) thanks to the special KP issue.

I used to visit Brian's website a couple years ago every other day but he slowed down so much, there wasn't any need.

Sorry to hear about the bad news.
 
You can't copyright public data

They can only copyright the tool they market - on their site.

They have no case. And in case they read this: YOU HAVE NO CASE KITPLANES.

Jeff
 
I was going to be off the computer all long weekend, but I had to log on for something, so I thought I'd check in at VAF. Thanks for all the thoughts from everyone.

The email for Phil Penny is [email protected]

Thanks for your thoughtful response, Stein. Just one clarification - the "up yours, Phil" was a response to the final "I am sending this to our legal counsel for further action", rather than a precursor to it. My previous response (to his initial email) was to try to explain why he was mistaken.

Kitplanes isn't the only one to do a directory. EAA did one a few years ago, too.

A couple good things have already come from this. First, the directory has received much more publicity and it's gone out to far more people in one day than it did in all the days before that. So, more people get the benefit of it.

Second, several people from the matronics list have contacted me about taking this concept to the next level, something more like what I had in mind when I invested dozens or hundreds of hours into making the directory.

I had initially planned a free public resource that people could use to search and sort homebuilt plane data, and something that users and manufacturers alike could keep up to date with the latest info. I was swamped with checking data and getting it in. I had started with MS Access, but switched to Excel for easier data entry. Anyway, I ended up with something a bit more hokey that what I'd envisioned, but it worked. I made the initial directory, then a few people have contacted me with data updates, which I put into the spreadsheet. I hope to get more updates, additions, corrections, etc from people going forward.

What some people who've contacted me propose to do now is take the first step to another level - to make an online database in sort of a wiki-style that will contain all the data we can get. That's what I had in mind in the first place, but I didn't have the resources to implement it. It will include all homebuilts, kits, plans, ultralights, rotary, LSA, etc. It will be something that users and manufacturers can directly access and keep up to date. It will be fully searchable/sortable by all the criteria anyone could want. And it will be FREE.

It's snowing like crazy here in NH, so I am shutting down this computer and going out into the garage to work on zeee plane.

Wishing you all the very best new year, safety in flying, and success in building.

brian
 
Thanks

Brian, thanks for the address.

Here is my note to Mr. P

"I am no longer a subscriber to Kitplanes.

I will check to make sure that I also cancel any other subscriptions to any Belvoir products.

You are acting like a bully.

Mike Starkey""

Mike
 
If threats of lawsuits are the first response from Kitplanes over something like this, well, I won't be buying any more issues either.
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Well said, and ditto.

<RANT>
It's a shame that businesses care more about their bottom line than their customers. I have my own business too, and I find when my customers are my first priority, the money takes care of itself. And I've never had a shortage of customers or money.

The people to send e-mails to don't work at Belvoir. They work at Garmin, Superior, Dynon, and Van's. Tell them not to waste their money advertising in Kitplanes, because we won't be reading it.

We vote with our dollars.
</RANT>
 
brian said:
Thanks for your thoughtful response, Stein. Just one clarification - the "up yours, Phil" was a response to the final "I am sending this to our legal counsel for further action", rather than a precursor to it. My previous response (to his initial email) was to try to explain why he was mistaken.

It's snowing like crazy here in NH, so I am shutting down this computer and going out into the garage to work on zeee plane.

Wishing you all the very best new year, safety in flying, and success in building.

brian
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Hi Brian,

Let me start by saying I can appreciate what you were doing and know you to be a decent guy who wasn't necessarily trying to do anything wrong. Plus, you're building an RV so that's a good thing.

The point I was trying to make is that your initial response to their 1st email/letter included statements like: "People all over the Internet are talking about how inaccurate your directory is"...and then ended with: "I will not be intimidated by your threats....I suggest you leave me alone. If you want to fight, you will find I can be quite combative and I don't back down. Any further harassment from you on this matter will only generate considerable negative publicity for your company."

My point is that perhaps if you'd have given them a timeline of what you did, where you got your facts and invited them to a discussion that would result in a solution perhaps it would have never gotten to this point. It was only an email they sent, not a legal paper complaint....so it's not like it was that terrible of a threat to begin with, and the response (even though difficult) maybe should have been along the lines of providing facts, dates, etc.. to bolster your position instead of just automatically threatening them with negative publicity. Since those guys included a phone number and complete contact information in their original email to you, I'm curious if you called them to discuss this matter and try to let them know the facts on your data? No big deal if you didn't, but perhaps that too might have been an option. They didn't openly and directly accuse you of actually stealing stuff, they said it "appears to be" and "possible use" which is an executives way of Fact Finding.

Anyway, I'll again say I'm not flaming you or defending them, just trying to share with everyone else that it's worth sleeping on things for a bit or getting some review from friends before responding to things like that. As I said previously, situations like this rarely result in anything good for everyone involved. I'm not saying you were wrong, just that perhaps a slightly cooler response may have illicited a different result. Also, I've found that many times a quick phone call to explain details can eliminate many future problems.

I'm hoping this all works out and no-body is hurt. Like I said, I know Brian wasn't going out to steal stuff but I know the kitplanes guys not to be an openly "evil empire" so perhaps cooler heads will prevail there as well.

Just my 2 cents as usual.

Cheers,
Stein.
 
I think kitplanes is awesome.

I am what you all call a newbie. I have always wanted to fly and am studying my for my written test and hoping to start working on my PPL.

I was not raised around aviation and am soaking up information from this wonderful sight and Kitplanes magazine as much as I can.

I am thankful that not many posts on this sight get as carried away slamming a business before all of the facts are in. Otherwise I would be turned off from avaition (at least Rv's). On the otherhand, this seems like such a wonderful community of people that I would love to have a RV-7 or RV-10 just for the enjoyment of flying and being part of such a great group of people.

What I am trying to say, is don't slam Kitplanes too bad, I am looking forward to every issue! Dan Checkoway does an excellent job on his articles and web page. (even though I cannot access his web sight for some reason now-virus proctector?)

I hope this issue gets worked out to everyones satisfaction and good luck Brian with your new list!

DOUG.....Awesome sight and I personally appreciate all you do to keep it clean and family friendly!!!

Todd
Northwest OH
I've been trying to explain to my wife all the avantages of a RV-10
 
I also subscribe to KitPlanes. I have to say that I usually enjoy reading it and consider it to be worth the $. I just got the new issue yesterday.

The editor comments section (first section) lists a code you can enter into the website for free access to the on-line pub.

I know we had talked about this in an earlier thread and was very suprised to see it.
 
Will Womack said:
I also subscribe to KitPlanes. I have to say that I usually enjoy reading it and consider it to be worth the $. I just got the new issue yesterday.

The editor comments section (first section) lists a code you can enter into the website for free access to the on-line pub.

I know we had talked about this in an earlier thread and was very suprised to see it.
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Does this replace the old "digital" subscription, making it's rate the same as a paper subscription?
 
GrayHawk said:
Does this replace the old "digital" subscription, making it's rate the same as a paper subscription?
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Apparently it's only until mid-February. I tried to get in (I'm a paper subscriber) and kept entering the password the mag said to enter, but it kept bouncing me back. So I gave up. But since I get the thing in the mail anyway, no bother.
 
Bob Collins said:
Apparently it's only until mid-February. I tried to get in (I'm a paper subscriber) and kept entering the password the mag said to enter, but it kept bouncing me back. So I gave up. But since I get the thing in the mail anyway, no bother.
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Yes, did not work for me either. Maybe they are just harvesting email addresses.....

Back to waiting for the digital age to show up...... (in magazines)
 
GrayHawk said:
Yes, did not work for me either. Maybe they are just harvesting email addresses.....

Back to waiting for the digital age to show up...... (in magazines)
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My mistake. It is just for the aircraft directory. I thought it was for a free "sample" digital issue. Wishful thinking, I guess.
 
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