RVG8tor

RVG8tor

Well Known Member
From what I have read there is no step in the elevator instructions that says install K1100 nut plates or how to accomplish this task, just a note on the DWG. Just to be sure I have figured this out I want to run it by the forum. I have read what there is in the forum.

I will use the dimple method since I have the reduced size die. I have read about the NAS rivet method.

My thought is to install the nut plates before I rivet the trim reinforcing plate onto the skin. Can anyone point out any problems with doing it this way?

To install the nut plates I dimple the reinforecing plate for the nut plate rivets and also dimple the nut plate rivet holes. There is no reason to drill out the nut plate holes since they are already larger than the -3 rivets. I will also have to dimple with #6 dies the hole the tapered screw goes into.

So do I have the install procedure for the K1100 nut plate correct? Is there any other tips you might have for me?

Thanks for any help.
 
I didn't dimple the nutplate rivet holes. In my opinion the nutplate can "float" (ie, does not have to sit flush with the skin) since the screws will be long enough screw in securely.
 
Not good....

jmartinez443 said:
I didn't dimple the nutplate rivet holes. In my opinion the nutplate can "float" (ie, does not have to sit flush with the skin) since the screws will be long enough screw in securely.
Click to expand...

This doesn't sound like a good technique.

Think of the nutplate as a plain old nut... you would never mount a nut with an indeterminate space between the nut and the surface it was bearing against.

As the bolt (or whatever) is being screwed into the nutplate, the eventual torque will be affected by this gap, and the force needed to pull the nutplate down as the gap is closed.

If the gap is left, the vibration effects on the joint will be somewhat unknown since the bolt is only held in place by two -3 rivets teetering on a dimple...:)

Dimple the surface and the nutplate, or countersink the material, but ensure all mechnical parts are in contact with each other...

gil A
 
Dimple plate nut legs

I agree with Gil. I did the same. You have to grind a small bevel section off the FM die side face, otherwise it hits the threaded shank of the plate nut and mangles the plate nut when you squeeze it.
 
Reduced diameter dies...

rv9av8tr said:
I agree with Gil. I did the same. You have to grind a small bevel section off the FM die side face, otherwise it hits the threaded shank of the plate nut and mangles the plate nut when you squeeze it.
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... or you could buy a reduced diameter female die... like this one from Avery...

578.jpg


http://www.averytools.com/pc-578-17-small-diameter-dimple-dies.aspx

Other tight spots usually turn up too later in the building process....:)

gil A
 
RVG8tor said:
.....From what I have read there is no step in the elevator instructions that says install K1100 nut plates or how to accomplish this task, just a note on the DWG. Thanks for any help.
Click to expand...
Mike,

Let me add my 2 cents here: I have never encountered any circumstance in which dimpling nutplates is a desirable option. I know Van's describes the technique but it sure seems "the long way around the barn" to me.

Referencing your post and as the detail photograph illustrates....I almost always attach nutplates using NAS1097 rivets. This is common and standard practice in the production world and why Van's does not call out their use in RV construction is beyond me.

 
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In the areas that require a nut plate riveted on dimpled skins or the like I have fashioned spacers that are a fuzz larger than the nut plates foot print out of .032 material. By doing that I can machine counter sink the spacer for the dimpled skins and don't have to do anything to the nut plates. It's more work for sure and it really a helps to have nut plate jigs for drilling the spacers but in the end the nut plates are unquestionably secure rather than wonky. I wouldn't leave space between the nut plate and skin or any other surface on a bet.
 
NAS1097 Rivets - Yes

I'm with Rick on this one... countersink for rivets.... use standard size rivets for 0.040 and above, and the NAS1097 reduced head rivets for anything thinner.

Dimpling is OK (if both sides are dimpled...:)...) - but the reduced head rivets and countersinking is actually easier and less work IMHO.

I was really answering the initial poster who preferred dimpling.

Use the NAS1097 rivets....:)

gil A
 
Me neither, but...

jmartinez443 said:
I didn't dimple the nutplate rivet holes. In my opinion the nutplate can "float" (ie, does not have to sit flush with the skin) since the screws will be long enough screw in securely.
Click to expand...


Having got my tail mounted recently, I also noticed I didn't dimple the nutplates, nor did I dimple the skin for the K1100 nutplates. When the elevtaor next comes off I'll be re-doing both of those tasks; I don't think the nutplate should float around like that; doesn't look right if nothing else...
 
Why go to all this trouble? Dimple the skin, put a slight countersink on the nutplate to center it and use a normal rivet. Shouldn't be more than a few minutes of total build time. Van's didn't supply those fancy rivets, so you don't need them. It's just a tractor made of aluminum, build on. :D
 
At $6.25 - it's a bargain!!

N916K said:
Why go to all this trouble? Dimple the skin, put a slight countersink on the nutplate to center it and use a normal rivet. Shouldn't be more than a few minutes of total build time. Van's didn't supply those fancy rivets, so you don't need them. It's just a tractor made of aluminum, build on. :D
Click to expand...

Van doesn't provide a lot of stuff that makes building easier....:)

Do yourself a favor and buy some....

http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_detail.php/pid=6644~subid=1724/index.html

At $6.25 for 1/8 lb, you will have enough for several RVs... a real bargain.

When you reach the fuselage, there are a lot more locations where these reduced head rivets can be used. The -3 size listed above seems to be the one I use almost all of the time.

Build on... but make it easy to get a good product.... gil A
 
Final Result

First let me say thanks for all of the posts, I am sure I and many others will be helped by the information.

I already had the reduced diameter die so I went with the dimple route and if I must say so it turned out great (photo). Now as far as countersinking being easier, I just don't get that. I do not have a lot of experience with the countersink stuff and I only feel most comfortable when doing the CS on thick stock. It took all of 5 min to dimple all of these holes (platenuts have dimple) and another 20 min to set the rivets.

For me it came down to what I had on hand, maybe I will order some of the NAS rivets and try them in another spot. I have enough things that slow down my build without stopping work for 3-7 days while some rivets come in the mail. Also I depend on Van's skill as a designer, if he does not call for the NAS rivet method then he must have a reason, simplicity, ease of building who knows. I think what happens is on this site with have people with a wealth of knowledge and some impart good ideas that in some cases are overkill for most projects and or builders. I am not saying that is the case here, the NAS rivet ideas sounds good but I am not comfortable with it due to my current skill set. I will master this method and then I can make an educated decision the next time I install plate nuts.

What I love about this VAF is you get all kinds of ideas from the backyard mechanic to the rocket scientist, all you have to do is sift through the ideas and find what works for you. One idea is sometimes better than another then again it really comes down to opinion. Again thanks for the information.

Cheers

 
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