[xblueh2o]

Ok,
First post here and I have many many questions but I will try and keep it short and on target. I searched the general forums for a while but didn't find any good solid answers. I have also looked at Vans site and found nothing explicit. I figured I would ask here in the 8 forum since everyone here would know the answers and more importantly that is the model I am considering.

1. When purchasing a kit (QB or not, doesn't matter. Or does it?) Do you purchase the entire kit at once or do people get the empennage, finish it then order the wings etc etc on down the line?

2. How do people manage the expensive bits (engine, avionics) and still manage to not get divorced, put kids through college, not end up living in a van down by the river?

Did you just throw a few large chunks of money at your project or is it more like a slow steady drain? I am not worried about time or ability. I have built cars and planes before (for other people) but my fiscally conservative side is rearing it's ugly head when I start thinking about this project. Just wondering how the average person does it.

 

[pierre smith]

Welcome Sam

1. You can buy whatever you like, when you like but many of the builders will order the next item when they see they're nearing the end. Also consider Van's waiting time...contact them for that. Shipping costs favor you if several packages come in the same shipment.

2. A lot of us DID get divorced during the build...unfortunately. Some wives adjust/accept it better than others and there's a bunch of posts on that subject as well. A lot of us bought used takeout engines with some time left on them or rebuild them ourselves. Keep in mind that TBO is not mandatory...many of the Lycomings have run 3000 hours and more...perfectly legal too.

3. It will be a real balancing act so that you don't end up in a tent .."down by the river" as far as a happy wife, college for the kids and so on...have some real heart-to-heart talks with your wife and kids regarding all of this. The more all of them can be on board, the easier life will be.

How much money you throw at it depends on how much free cash you have...what kind of budget.

Welcome again....down South we know..."If Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!"

BTW, my kids live in Fremont and Stockton,

 

[Experimental Chaos]

Come on by, get your feet wet

I don?t live far from you (Fairfield) if you want to get the practice kit, and come over to use my tools, to put it together, please feel free. You can see, and critique my project, an RV-7 getting closer and closer to ordering the finish kit. So, I still have the, (gulp), panel and engine/prop to purchase. The nice thing is you don?t have to spend all the money at once, but we?re talking about some pretty big bites, none the less.

If you?re not already tooled up for the project, you can spend a bit there as well. I?ve been told that I?m a bit queer for tools (by one of my co-workers, where I used to work) so if you come over, you can try out a lot of different stuff, and weigh the merits vs the cost, and decide if some of the ?luxury? tools are worth the cost.

So, anyway, drop me a line if you want to come by,

 

[RV8RIVETER]

I bought each kit at a time when needed. Better for me, no debts. The good part is I got the new kit change upgrades as they came out.

As for the family. I got married 4 months after starting the tail kit. Since then we have added a pair of great 7 yr old twins and have built and moved to a new home. Just remember where your priorities are; for me it is family #1. Kids only grow up once and the airplane is not going to keep you warm on a cold night or take care of you when you come home from the hospital.

It takes longer but makes for a happier journey. I should finish up this summer, just trying to get the cowl ready for paint. It has ONLY been 13 years for me.

 

[Mike S]

Welcome to VAF!!!!

Ok,

First post here

Sam, welcome aboard the good ship VAF.

As to the question of buying kits all together, or one at a time-----many folks buy/build a simple and less expensive part, usually the tail, first as a test case to see if they can handle it. Cuts the expense down if they turn out to have 10 thumbs

You state that you have built planes before, so it may be wise for you to order as much as you can afford and hopefully save on shipping costs.

For the big $$ stuff------start putting something aside every paycheck in an aviation fund, and keep your eye on these forums, good deals happen here often, and they do not last long. Sometimes only minutes

I would wait for the avionics purchase as long as you can, the pace of advancement is just too fast, and things get "dated" rather fast. Never too early to start considering the overall design, but leave the purchase out there------unless one of those good deals comes up, then .............??

Good luck, hang on and enjoy the ride, there is a lot of info gonna be comming your way.

 

[DaAV8R]

Building

I am buying each kit as I go. I think I read on Vans site before I started that you probably won't do all the things you do now and also build a plane. I'm finding that to be very true. It sounds like you have completed other big projects so you are well aware that to maintain progress on a project this size does take a real commitment of time.

I am on a mission to build my plane as inexpensively as possible. I have purchased an engine core and intend to go thru it myself. I have collected many gauges and a radio for almost nothing. I currently have less than $2,000.00 in the engine core, most of the gauges and a good com radio. It is possible to build on the cheap if you keep a sharp lookout for bargains.

Good luck in your decision.

 

[xblueh2o]

All good info. Thanks for sharing everyone.
More questions.

1. What sort of insurance (if any) do you/did you carry on your project while it was under construction?

2. Talk to me about weight. What did your finished product weigh? I am trying to get a realistic idea of how much weight I can expect to be able to lift with a full load of fuel.

 

[DaAV8R]

Insurance and Weight

Insurance - I hear alot about folks buying not in motion insurance for their build. Some of the figures I've heard seem high to me. For not much more that the premiums which have been mentioned to me you can insure a flying plane with a greater hull value. At least for a while, you might protect your investment by spreading out the parts as you finish them. Some at home, some at your buddies hanger, etc.. They won't all burn down. It they do, take it as a sign that you were not destined to fly the thing . I wonder if we couldn't just add it to the homeowners policy.

Weight - I'm nowhere near flying but a couple of planes I've asked about had empties from 1050 with a fixed pitch to 1200 with all the goodies and a constant speed. It seems like if you get carried away buying stuff and spending money, you run the risk of ending up heavy.

 

[N941WR]

Good questions!

I bought each kit as I needed them. By the time I was finished, my total debt on the -9 was around $360 on one credit card.

My 1st engine (135 hp O-290-D2) came from Barnstormers for $3500 w/ 0 SMOH (In 1959) and worked great right up until I ran it into a trailer. The slightly more expensive 180 HP O-360 ECi kit engine was paid for by my insurance company. Don't worry about the engine just yet. If you find a great deal, grab it, but otherwise, you can wait. A friend bought what he thought would be a great deal on a core and by the time he is ready to put it back together he will have as much in it as a zero time ECi kit engine (These are Lycoming clone engines made up of PMA'ed parts.), roughly $15K.

As for the wife thing, you have to have the right person. I ordered my tail kit before I met my wife and it arrived a week after our first date. The fuselage kit was ordered the week before our wedding, so it has always been in our life together. In fact, she bucked or drove at least one third of the rivets in the plane.

When it came time for the radios, transponder, etc., I would wait until I needed some small item from Aircraft Spruce and purchase a larger item at that same time. Thus, there was no big hit for avionics.

That said, don't buy anything for the panel until the last minute. The EFIS stuff is changing so fast, anything you buy today will be outdated when you install it, and way outdated when you do your first flight.

As for empty weights, I have a list of 41 RV's and the average empty weight for that sample is 1109 pounds. The lightest is 1035 pounds and has a 160 hp O-320 and the heaviest is 1330 pounds and has a 260 hp IO-540. (Moving up one row shows a 200 HP IO-360 RV-8 that came in at 1178 pounds. Dropping the Super Eight out brings the average weight down 1104 pounds.)

Congrats on taking the first step. Remember Grasshopper, the journy of 16,000 rivet starts with the first one.

 

[N941WR]

Builder's insurance

Do a search on "buider's insurance" and see what comes up. (Time to get used to using that function as there is a TON of info on this site.)

Most home owner's policies won't cover airplanes. Mine did but get a letter in writing stating that it covers your project.

Many people don't even bother with insurance until the value gets up there. It is your project, do what you are comfortable with.

 

[xblueh2o]

Research and head scratching continues.
1. How do people deal with obtaining hangar space at impacted airports? I have a shop at the house I can begin construction but at some point I am going to need to move it to the local airport. The only trouble is that people literally die on the hangar waiting list at my local airport. The last time I looked, the person who was on the top of the list had put his name in over 15 years ago. Subleasing is very much frowned upon.
2. Browsing around the forums I see lots of "after market" components available (cowlings, canopies, gear legs, exhaust etc etc) and wondered if there was a prevailing logic. Are certain components just better than stock or is it a matter of the after market part having some specific trait the specific builder is looking for?

As always, thanks for your input.

 

[xblueh2o]

I have ordered a preview plans set and spent the last couple evenings paging through them and I have a question for those who looked at the preview plans and then went on to build. When you are standing there with the parts in your hand and the full size set of drawings available do the directions make more sense? Most are very straight forward while others I have stared at the plans and directions for ten minutes trying to figure out what in the world they are talking about.

 

[Bullseye]

2. Browsing around the forums I see lots of "after market" components available (cowlings, canopies, gear legs, exhaust etc etc) and wondered if there was a prevailing logic. Are certain components just better than stock or is it a matter of the after market part having some specific trait the specific builder is looking for?

There is a ton of info on the forums, but what most helped me decide on aftermarket components (that I haven't even really started buying yet) is perusing build sites out there on the interweb. Instead of someone just saying "be sure to do this" on the forums (which is valuable!), you can actually see that component being installed on the airplane, and usually the person with the build site goes into a little bit of info on why they made that decision. Most of the sites I read through are for the -7, so I won't list them here, but I know there are some good sites out there for the -8.

I have ordered a preview plans set and spent the last couple evenings paging through them and I have a question for those who looked at the preview plans and then went on to build. When you are standing there with the parts in your hand and the full size set of drawings available do the directions make more sense? Most are very straight forward while others I have stared at the plans and directions for ten minutes trying to figure out what in the world they are talking about.

Absolutely. Like you, I read through the preview plans a few times and was thoroughly confused. I tried to follow along with the plans, but some of the stuff didn't make sense.

Once I got my hands on real parts, it all became clear...well...clearer. I'm still confused about a lot while building, and I still spend a good amount of each work session staring at the plans. (Oh, and one of the things that surprised me the most was how much smaller everything was once I saw them. I had never actually seen an AN426AD3- rivet before my practice kit...it was tiny. I don't know why I thought everything would be bigger.)

 

[GAHco]

Ok,
First post here and I have many many questions but I will try and keep it short and on target. I searched the general forums for a while but didn't find any good solid answers. I have also looked at Vans site and found nothing explicit. I figured I would ask here in the 8 forum since everyone here would know the answers and more importantly that is the model I am considering.

1. When purchasing a kit (QB or not, doesn't matter. Or does it?) Do you purchase the entire kit at once or do people get the empennage, finish it then order the wings etc etc on down the line?

2. How do people manage the expensive bits (engine, avionics) and still manage to not get divorced, put kids through college, not end up living in a van down by the river?

Did you just throw a few large chunks of money at your project or is it more like a slow steady drain? I am not worried about time or ability. I have built cars and planes before (for other people) but my fiscally conservative side is rearing it's ugly head when I start thinking about this project. Just wondering how the average person does it.

I will address what I have experience with.

I bought my tail kit 14 years ago, it was all I could afford. That was ok because I had 3 kids in the home and very little funds.

I bought the wings a few years later, inventoried the box, awhile later and I built my wings.

All along my wife was ok, as long as the family did not suffer because of my managed airplane building addiction.

Some times I did not work on it for long periods of time. This was due to lack of funds, family matters, or other somewhat necessary projects.

My wife praised me for how good it was all coming along whenever she would recognize a milestone in her estimation.

Now the good part.... When I rolled the Fuselage (Canoe) over and set it on the stand I made, she said "Wow this is exciting it is starting to look like a real airplane, so we will be able to fly it someday!"

Sometimes its a matter of how long for them to accept it, more for them to appreciate it, more for them to like it, more for them the get excited, and the final stage is full acceptance of your partner IN THE SKY !

 

[Daver]

figuring it out along the way...

When I first jumped into this 4.5 years ago, I had no idea about any of the "stuff" it was going to take to get the thing in the air.

Heck, I wasn't even a pilot!

Avionics, engine, prop, hangar, flight school - oh my!

I figured it all out along the way somehow and all the pieces, given enough time and consistent effort, fell into place.

If I had waited until all the problems had a solution, I would still be waiting.

Living in a van by the river has its advantages. Think of the building room you will have

Dave
-9A flying

 

[xblueh2o]

Looking for somebody in the greater SF Bay Area who has a finished, or nearly finished, 8 that would be kind enough to let me come over and sit in it. At 6'5" with long legs I want to make sure I fit comfortably. A local builder let me sit in his briefly a while back and I felt kind of cramped. Looking back I wonder if the rudder pedals were adjusted back. The seats were very well custom padded so when the canopy was closed I felt like I had to scrunch down a little. I would like to take the time to really get a feel for the airframe and ask some questions.

Thanks in advance.

 

[mkjprice]

Insurance - I hear alot about folks buying not in motion insurance for their build. Some of the figures I've heard seem high to me. For not much more that the premiums which have been mentioned to me you can insure a flying plane with a greater hull value. At least for a while, you might protect your investment by spreading out the parts as you finish them. Some at home, some at your buddies hanger, etc.. They won't all burn down. It they do, take it as a sign that you were not destined to fly the thing . I wonder if we couldn't just add it to the homeowners policy.

Weight - I'm nowhere near flying but a couple of planes I've asked about had empties from 1050 with a fixed pitch to 1200 with all the goodies and a constant speed. It seems like if you get carried away buying stuff and spending money, you run the risk of ending up heavy.

As far as adding it yo your homeowners policy - the insurance company would look at it as the same situation of your vehicle parked in the garage and the house and vehicle burn down. The vehicle is required to have its own insurance policy to be covered and will be covered to the extent of its policy limits. For an aircraft - to be covered as an aircraft (even in parts form) it woul need to be covered as its own policy.

Also - for those of us that have expensive tools - often there is a limit on what your insurance company will pay out for a loss. Sometimes as little as $2500 (minus deductible) unless you have declared a higher value for these tools (and paid a slightly higher premium). Overall a $100 more a year for homeowners insurance to cover thousands of dollars in tools would likely be a good decision at least for a portion of the build.

Just my 2 cents as an insurance agent in Utah.

 

[xblueh2o]

Nobody in the greater bay area with an 8?

Still in the research stage.

Question. Has anybody grafted an F1 fastback and sliding canopy to an 8?
I like the look of the fastback but I am not a real fan of the tip over canopy.

 

[Mike S]

Question. Has anybody grafted an F1 fastback and sliding canopy to an 8?
I like the look of the fastback but I am not a real fan of the tip over canopy.

Something for you to consider is this. The slider canopy runs on rails that must be parallel or they will not operate. The distance between the rails is set by the narrowest part of the cockpit, which is at the back.

The ShopPlanes canopy setup replaces the fuse longereon caps with a narrower piece----and that gives more width to the front cockpit.

I notice you have asked in prior posts about how you would fit in an 8, if you have wide shoulders, this could be a factor in the decision.

I have "tried on" both a stock 8, and one with the ShowPlanes mod, and there is no way I could fly a stock 8-----my shoulders are just too wide. The ShowPlanes fits well.

 

[xblueh2o]

Good to know, thanks for the info.
If I can find a local 8 to sit in I will make sure to note the shoulder room.
Any idea how much wider the Showplane's tip over is?

 

[xblueh2o]

Hmmm, the search narrows.
A member offered me the opportunity to come sit in his airplane this morning to test how well all 6'5" of me fit. Nice machine, well done, a little cramped though.
He was kind enough to take all the extra padding out of the seat so I sat down and back as low and aft as was possible then pushed the peddles all the way forward but my knees were still just in contact with the bottom of the instrument panel and would really jam it if I had to stab full rudder. I thought the canopy clearance was kind of close especially if I was wearing a headset. I also found I had to duck quite a bit to get under the canopy while closing.

As I understand it the tall pilot option moves the top of the front seatback aft thus giving a more reclined seating position. True? After doing some searching I see where some people have also moved the bottom of the front seatback aft slightly which would give me more leg (knee) room. Reviewing my preview plans I can see where that could be done pretty easily. After looking at the airplane and reviewing my plans I don't see anyplace where I could easily modify the seat (floor) position to move it lower. So, who out there has experience with the tall pilot option and can say how much lower your knees and head might be over the regular setup?

Another option would be to cut my own instrument panel with the lower edge moved up. I am not interested in having gobs of avionics (I get enough of that at work) so I think I might be able to get away with that. Has anyone cut their own panel and how did it work out?

 

[pierre smith]

It's your call, Sam.

Sam, guys have added lower panel extensions and although I haven't read about a shallower panel, I wouldn't be surprised if it has been done. You're not the first 6' 5" guy to apply

I had a guy your size in my -6A for transition training a while back.

If you need more leg room, make a cardboard dash template just barely tall enough for you and the few gauges (you said so) that you'll want and go for it.

It's experimental, so you won't need anyone's blessings to do it.

Best,

 

[chaskuss]

Seat mods

snipped

As I understand it the tall pilot option moves the top of the front seat back aft thus giving a more reclined seating position. True? After doing some searching I see where some people have also moved the bottom of the front seat back aft slightly which would give me more leg (knee) room. Reviewing my preview plans I can see where that could be done pretty easily. After looking at the airplane and reviewing my plans I don't see anyplace where I could easily modify the seat (floor) position to move it lower. So, who out there has experience with the tall pilot option and can say how much lower your knees and head might be over the regular setup?

snipped

Add an additional hinge for the bottom of the seat back. You can easily locate it 1.5" aft of the stock hinge location. I left the stock hinge in place, for my vertically challenged friends. That will move your butt 1.5" aft. The tall pilot option is good for people up to 6'6" tall. [I'm 6'4" 215 pounds]
You won't be able to use the aftermarket brake fluid reservoirs which mount on the brake master cylinders, as they do not allow the adjustable rudder pedals to be moved all the way forward.
If you find the 8's leg room cramped [it is], consider building an 8A. The 8A does not have those main gear towers, which impinge on your leg room. The 8A is easier to build, because you don't have to deal with the gear towers. It's 5 to 10 pounds lighter and your insurance will be 30% to 40% lower, due to the nose wheel [unless you've got lots of tail wheel time in your log book].
I can fit in the rear of an 8 or 8A, comfortable, but it is snug. I've got photos of how I modified my seat. Send me a Private message if you'd like to see them.
Charlie Kuss
PS Actually, I think that the photos mentioned above are in a post on the subject, here in the archives. I found it. See the thread below for the photos.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=42033&highlight=seat+back

PPS To use the stock hinge location for the bottom of the seat back, with the tall pilot option, you need to build the seat back 2" taller than stock. The taller seat is a nice addition if you are 6'5" The first photo in the thread linked above shows why the taller seat back is needed if a shorter pilot flies from the front. For us tall guys, the longer seat back is still nice a nice mod.