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xcnick

Member
In searching this forum for information about buying a flying RV I often read ?if well built? etc. How can one recognized this? How does one recognize one that is not? Paint can hide a multitude of sins. What common mistakes are often found?

I am sure some are just funny. My biggest fear is sealing a rivet gun or my wallet into a wing.

Thanks for sharing.
nick
 
One old thread on this site describes a two place RV in which the builder had left out the nut plates and screws which are supposed to attach the bottom fuse skin to the bottom of the wing. I'd look hard at the firewall forward, fuel system and wiring. John
 
Nothing will help you know if something is built correctly, is to first build one yourself.. heh

But if that isn't an option, I'd look at everything. Just because it's flying doesn't mean its worth buying.

I'd also suggest getting a local EAA builder to come out and take a look with you. If the guy is serious about selling it he wont be offended by that.

If he balks at you bringing out a builder, don't walk.. run away from that plane =)
 
I would recommend you find/hire someone who is knowledgeable about RVs to look at the plane with you.

Also, it depends on where the airplane is.

For central Calif, Randy Thorne is a good choice for this, he is in Ione. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/member.php?u=3908

You also have a lot of good people in the Reno and Carson City area, if you find a plane that is local.

Do you have anything specific in mind yet??
 
Mike S said:
I would recommend you find/hire someone who is knowledgeable about RVs to look at the plane with you.
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I will employ as much help as I can get. However you all are a great help in educating myself along the way.

Yes, I should build my own. Everyone has shown great restraint in not flaming me for taking the easy way.

I don't even know enough to pick a model. My immediate thought is unlike many kit built planes something like a flying -4 can be had for a good price. Start there and then build something like a -10 which is less available. A flying -6 seems like the best value for something practical.
 
xcnick said:
I don't even know enough to pick a model.
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First off, define your mission.

Then, look for an aircraft that fits that mission.

RV 3 is single place-------

RV 4 and 8 are tandem.

RV 10 is four place.

All others are two place side-by-side.

Starting with the 6, most models are available with nose wheel or tail wheel. 10 and 12 are only nose wheel.
 
Build quality is really hard to define. There are two kinds of problems, cosmetic and structural. I don't think I have seen a first-time builder that has done a flawless airplane, but for the most part, problems are cosmetic. These you will spot, and you can decide what you can accept. Structural problems aren't always so easy to spot! Here is where your chosen expert will come in handy. They can determine the severity, and the difficulty in fixing something. Replacing a too-short bolt is one thing; replacing a large number of rivets something else. Systems may be the hardest thing for the novice buyer to check. Rely on someone who knows, even if it costs some bucks up front. It can save more than your time and money...

Bob
 
A real-world question: Are you going to need insurance? If the answer is "yes", then call an agent that deals with EAB airplanes and have a frank talk. I use Gallagher (used to be called NationAir) and like them, but there are others, too.
 
Since RV,s are not an exotic design, a good prebuy inspection by a qualified AP should do the job for you. Money well spent.
 
Mike that is great advice, but I am my own worst enemy. I only want to bore holes in the air and absorb some of the echo in my hanger. Perhaps my girlfriend will enjoy flying with me, but only time will tell. I am not even sure about the holes. I enjoy positive maneuvers, but hanging from the harness looses its charm after a while.

Bob Turner thanks for approaching a big question I keep putting off. I am kind of assuming it will be stupid high, hence the idea of a -4 with cosmetic problems and simple panel that I can run with liability only. Then if I build an expensive one I will qualify for something reasonable. I am calling LL Johns next week to get my sailplane insured and will asked him to run some scenarios.

Bob thanks for mentioning the rivets. I assumed a gauge was included in the kits, but with so many I guess a few could go with out being checked. I imagine the worst rivets will be on the tail because that what is built first? Or is it further along when one could get over confident?

What happens forward of the firewall? Simple hose routing or is it possible to get the thrust line off?

Thanks guys
nick
 
Start looking at the tail. That is where everyone begins, and there are no quickbuild tails. That will tell you a lot. Check the skins for dings (easy to do with a rivet gun and inexperience). Check the flushness of the rivets. Check the smoothness of the skin edges (they should be deburred). Look for rivet tails (shop head) that are over squished or under squished or mashed over on their sides. If they used a squeezer instead of a rivet gun, these should all be very consistently set. Did the builder take the time to fully prime the interior skins? Did they farm out any of the labor or build portions?
I saw an RV-10 that was a quickbuild (before paint). You could tell the builder had to fabricate the side baggage door, since it was completely dinged up compared to the nice quality of the quickbuild wings and fuselage. The fiberglassing was also a mess. The painter had to redo the windshield fairings. Paint does hide many issues. Also look behind the panel at the wiring and under the seat panels for other potentially hidden problems. As suggested, an A&P inspection is highly recommended before purchase.
 
I would advise paying a seasoned RV builder to do your pre bye. If they have an A&P even better. In five minutes you can tell what kind of builder built the aircraft however it will still need a detailed inspection. As for primer (I am risking starting the primer war), it is not required on the interior skins unless you are in a poor climate such as on the coast.

Hiring someone with RV experience could save you thousands of dollars and if they find nothing then knowing it's a good airplane is priceless.
 
I'd look everywhere that wasn't pre-drilled (ie, longerons, weldments, empennage attachment areas, etc). When I look at my scrap pile, most of the parts are there because I screwed up an edge distance or seriously buggered up a hole. I'd be wary of a builder (especially a 1st timer) without a decent size scrap pile, in fact.

In the end though, I would be most concerned about fuel and control systems. These seem most likely to kill you if there is an issue. I would be wary of non-standard fuel systems, and would go through the control system bolt by bolt. And certainly nothing against 1st time builders (I'm one), but there's probably something to be said for buying a plane built by an A&P / multi-RV builder.
Just my $.02 after almost finishing my build...

Chris
 
Hi Nick,
I would suggest an alternate approach. Look inside your wallet and run a calculator several times to see what you can swing on a flying RV. Pick a model out of the blue based on that calculation. Add the modest fee charged by Jesse Saint or Smokey or any experts already mentioned here on a quality prebuy inspection. Buy it asap and enjoy life is short. If you want another model later sell yours and get a rod hotter! A lot of people here on VAF went this route.

 
Systems can be a big issue. My guess is that half of homebuilts need to be rewired, and there's issues with mounting, wrong eqiupment, wrong installation. Some errors won't be discoverable on inspection but only by disassembly. Good craftsmanship is a good hint but not a guarantee. Bad craftsmanship is a real warning.
 
Great advise

I second what Vlad said. I started with a -4 plans project, then a -3 already flying, then a -6a already flying, and finally landed on the biggest secret at Vans, the -9. Get what you can afford and fly. Upgrade later.
Cj


Vlad said:
Hi Nick,
I would suggest an alternate approach. Look inside your wallet and run a calculator several times to see what you can swing on a flying RV. Pick a model out of the blue based on that calculation. Add the modest fee charged by Jesse Saint or Smokey or any experts already mentioned here on a quality prebuy inspection. Buy it asap and enjoy life is short. If you want another model later sell yours and get a rod hotter! A lot of people here on VAF went this route.

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Vlad said:
Look inside your wallet and run a calculator several times to see what you can swing on a flying RV. Pick a model out of the blue based on that calculation. Add the modest fee charged by Jesse Saint or Smokey or any experts already mentioned here on a quality prebuy inspection. Buy it asap and enjoy life is short. If you want another model later sell yours and get a rod hotter! A lot of people here on VAF went this route.
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Vlad makes a good point. I bought what I knew would be a bit of a "project plane", the price was what I was willing to spend. On nice days I can go fly (it's solid, airworthy and flies great). On crud days like this weekend I can relieve my "builder's withdrawal" symptoms and work on it. If the aeromedical certification picture changes later on and I want to move up, I can.
 
xcnick said:
In searching this forum for information about buying a flying RV I often read “if well built” etc. How can one recognized this? How does one recognize one that is not? Paint can hide a multitude of sins. What common mistakes are often found?

I am sure some are just funny. My biggest fear is sealing a rivet gun or my wallet into a wing.

Thanks for sharing.
nick
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Worse would be a bucking bar rattling around inside a wing. :)

Truth is there are very few perfectly built experimental airplanes.

Even at that, a perfectly built airplane (like an OSH winner) has so much paint on it, it too may not be perfect. For sure all those pretty OSH winners are over weight big time with excessive finish materials. I do not believe empty weight is a judging factor. Pretty paint is.

Another truth is there are some dogs out there, you see them at OSH, they are flown in and out year after year. What does that tell you? The airplanes are air worthy or they would not be there. Some can be picked up cheap. What's important is they are flown regularly and safely.

If an airplane has an air worthiness certificate, has had good care,and is flown regularly, it probably is ok.

Find it, test fly it and get on with it. Life is too short to sweat a less than perfect rivet or two. There are many thousands of rivets in every RV and they are not all perfect, guaranteed. I would be most concerned about the engine...a good engine is a comfort, a bad one is not.
 
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Thanks Vlad and the rest of you for reminding me life is short. I agree wholeheartedly and intend to not leave any money on the table when I die.

However I do enjoy the process as well as flying so I thank everyone for playing. The whole concept of kit planes and building my own used to be in the forefront of the dream. As I have aged and have some money I do resort to paying to have others fix my car etc. for the first time in decades. They hate me in someways because I know how to do things, usually already diagnosed the problem, and offer suggestions on how not to scrape their knuckles. Only I ever work on my glider and my '85 MR2, but now all the other stuff I pay others. I am stuck in a transition.

Anyways it is really interesting to read that system installation is more of a problem than structural or sheet metal. Before I worked on a kit I would want to know the sheetmetal work was simplified. I have met people who can do bend allowance math in their head and have all their finger tips wrapped in tape. I will never get that skill level of sheet metal work.

At the risk of going off topic, why is the -9 the biggest secret? Remember I am a newbie.
 
If a builder lets the rivet gun slip and it dents up the side of the fuselage, it is really ugly, and probably will hurt resale, but it won't kill you If he doesn't prime, it'll give you that uneasy feeling, but won't kill you. Heck, if his fiberglass skills suck and the cowling is covered in pinholes and uneven sanding marks, its ugly, but won't kill you.

However, if that builder went cheap and used he wrong fuel lines, or wired an electrical system poorly that'll start a fire in your cockpit, that could easily kill you. Systems are definitely the scariest part. They are where the magic happens and the nightmares.
 
Geeze David!

I can tell you don't like paint! Please don't generalize all Osh Kosh winners as pigs with lipstick! Not all nicely painted planes are over weight or hiding poor workmanship.
 
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