leeschaumberg

leeschaumberg

Well Known Member
It is expected that AVgas will disapear by 2020. JP4 will be the only aircraft fuel. Weight per gallon at 72deg far AVgas - about 6.25 pounds
JP4 - about 6.84 pounds. Diesels genrally use about 13% less fuel. Lycoming avgas engines get a BSFC of about .41 and diesel get about a BSFC of about .36 .
Just look around both lycoming and continental have a diesel that they are working on or certifying. So that AVgas IO360 may be a thing of the past.
 
Avgas Hysteria

WHO said that avgas will be gone? Without a suitable substitute that will largely kill GA. If someone wants to come up with a substitute with less lead that works in my 9.5:1 CR engine, go for it.

If someone wants to try to go diesel, go for it but a mandate to use it also kills GA.

Or maybe we will have batteries, or solar or special pixie dust.

Let the dreamers continue to dream. Innovators may or may not succeed. But let's deal with reality.
 
Avgas probably will not disappear, but it will get very expensive. The best alternative will probably will be some form of mogas in the future.

My guess is that the high-compression air-cooled engines will eventually lose popularity and the alternative engine conversions will become more common.
 
AVgas Versus JP4

Many people THINK that I'm full of baloney but just ask Van and company this question. Please report the answer and guaranty.
 
They may think you are full of balonia if you ask them about JP-4. I don't think they have made that stuff for years. Better to ask about Jet A or if you need to stay with JP try JP-8.
 
JP8 not JP4

I'm sorry if I said JP4. What I meant is JETA, kero or no.2 diesel. My ESP is getting very bad. It's very easy for me to do the same as I've done for decades. Avgas will not disapear because of all the planes that need it to run. New planes or construction will only be diesel.
 
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leeschaumberg said:
New planes or construction will only be diesel.
Click to expand...
I would argue against that point as well. This is kind of like all the doom and gloom we heard back in the 70's when they stopped selling leaded gas.

I suspect the oil companies will produce high octane led free avgas for us auto-cycle guys. All they have to do is leave out all the additives and dye it and we should be fine.

However, I think you are correct in that we will see more and more Jet-A/JP8 engines come on the market and I believe we will be better for it.

Just think, 20 years from now we will be reading this forum and there will be a never ending debate titled "JP-8 vs. Used Vegetable Oil".
 
Tetraethyl lead is produced primarily in one plant in the world, in England, although small amounts are produce in Russia and Eastern Europe. The last plant in the US closed in 1991, the last ones in France and Italy closed in 1997 and 1996, Mexico City in 1993 and Canada in 1994. As you can see, TEL production and use is declining. Leaded gas is still used in developing countries. Given the closure rate of plants in the past, one has to ask how long the stuff will continue to be produced.

It is shipped in two 30 year old ships. If the plant burns or has other problems, expect a major disruption. If a ship has a major problem, it probably won't be fixed or replaced. Then, the stuff will be shipped in tanks loaded onto the ship, instead of in built in tanks. Expect major price hikes. Could happen tomorrow, or maybe years from now. And, by the way, TEL in pure form is very toxic.

About 30% of the GA aircraft have high compression engines that must use 100LL. GA groups like EAA & AOPA and industry have been looking for unleaded alternatives but have not found a cost competitive octane booster.

What bothers me about this whole issue is that years ago, airports had 2 tanks, one for 80/87 and one for 100LL. Probably because of the requirement to replace tanks in the 90's (I'm just guessing on this) for environmental protection they all seemed to go to one tank. After all, 80/97 was going away, anyway. If they still had 2 tanks, we could get mogas in one and 100LL in the other.

I think it is not wise to order an engine that must use 100LL unless you do it with your eyes wide open, knowing that if there is a problem, you may have to do an expensive mod.
 
91 octane

Ivan, I don't have a source for mogas that is not contaminated with a substance made with a product that should be eaten. So I have not used any 91 octane. If I were to try it I would first have to research any problems at 17,500'.
 
Get the lead out

This was just posted on Yahoo news:

US govt to tighten lead emissions standards
Thu May 1, 5:49 PM ET

WASHINGTON (AFP) - The US Environmental Protection Agency unveiled plans Thursday to significantly strengthen lead emissions standards, in the first revision of the regulations for 30 years.

The proposals would reduce the amount of lead legally allowed in the air from 1.5 micrograms per cubic meter of air to between 0.1 and 0.3 micrograms per cubic meter, the EPA said in a statement.

"By tackling lead emissions, EPA is keeping America's clean air progress moving forward," said the agency's administrator, Stephen Johnson. "With today's proposal, we can write the next chapter in America's clean air story."

The agency said it would also welcome comments on changing the lead levels to a range of less than 0.10 to 0.50 micrograms per cubic meter. Its proposals will be open for public consultation for 60 days.

The EPA estimates emissions of lead to the air have fallen nearly 98 percent nationwide since 1980, largely because of the phase-out of lead in gasoline, and levels are generally below the standard introduced in 1978.

But evidence from more than 6,000 studies since 1990 indicates that lead in the blood -- either through inhalation or more commonly, ingestion -- "can cause harm at much lower levels than previously understood," the agency said.

Lead exposure can damage the central nervous system, the heart, kidneys and the immune system, and is particularly harmful to children. Studies have found links between early exposure and effects on IQ, learning, memory and behavior.

The new proposals would tighten the primary standard on lead emissions -- which protects public health -- by 80 to 93 percent.

They would also upgrade the secondary standard -- protecting the environment -- to the same level, taking into account the detrimental effect lead can have on reproduction and growth in birds, mammals and other organisms.

The agency estimates about 1,300 tons of lead are still emitted to the air each year, from a variety of sources, including smelters, iron and steel foundries and aviation fuel.
 
Too Dear?

Last Friday, AVGAS was $1.8035 per litre, AVTUR $1.804 per litre, and auto diesel $1.794 per litre in my nearest big town. They could make the stuff from molten gold, or dishwater, and I don't think the retail price would vary by more than a few cents. Fuel is fuel and the price is 'what the market will bear' = 'whatever we fools will pay'.

This post has no relationship to availability of TEL, sorry, I'm just cheesed off.
 
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