[idleup]

I have a QB fuse and assumed that since the inside of the fuse had a dull and very slight greenish tint (in some places) that it has been primed. However, now I am wondering if it is just scuffed and has been prepped but still needs priming. I want to get confirmation before starting to close stuff up whether what comes by default on the quickbuild is in fact primer or something else. Some areas in the fuse dont even have a greenish tint at all but looked "scuffed"...

- Matt

 

[Pirkka]

According to the Van's web pages (under the quickbuilds) they say that the QBs are primed.

 

[rv8ch]

QB Primed?

...Some areas in the fuse dont even have a greenish tint at all but looked "scuffed"...

If you take a bit of acetone or mek or probably water (just kidding) and wipe it, see if you can get some to come off on a rag. That will tell you it is primed.

My QB came with what Van's called a "Sherwin Williams Wash Primer". I got the details and contacted Sherwin Williams, and they said that this primer is not a sealer, just a layer to help a top layer grip better. They said that it was totally unsuited for the application Van's uses it for - that is priming something that won't get a top coat. Not cool, but what can you do? In places where I could put a top coat on, I did. There are of course a lot of places where you can't.

If you think that priming is good, and I personally do, then you'll probably not be too happy with the QB primer. Now, you mentioned that yours has a green tint. Mine did not, it was grey, so perhaps your QB has a different primer. I hope so. Your best bet is to check with Van's to see what you have.

 

[Mel]

I've been using Sherwin Williams "wash primer" for about 20 years. At one time Sherwin Williams called me and questioned this use. I asked them what they would recommend. After studying for about 2 months, they called back and said it should work fine. It has worked great for me. It's light and effective. If you choose to use something else, then great. I will continue to use it until someone convinces me that something else is better.
Mel...DAR

 

[rv8ch]

Sherwin Williams Primer

I've been using Sherwin Williams "wash primer" for about 20 years. At one time Sherwin Williams called me and questioned this use. I asked them what they would recommend. After studying for about 2 months, they called back and said it should work fine. ...

That's good to hear. I guess I'll know in 20 years or so how it works out! Thanks for the info.

 

[mgomez]

The QB is primed

It's primed with a product that S-W claims "provides no significant corrosion protection," or words to that effect.

 

[LifeofReiley]

SW Wash Primer

From information I gathered a couple of years ago the SW Wash Primer helps the QB's cross over in the container without showing up at Van's with corrosion. It's not a long term solution against corrosion for aluminum.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

IN a galaxy far far away, Primer Wars

From information I gathered a couple of years ago the SW Wash Primer helps the QB's cross over in the container without showing up at Van's with corrosion. It's not a long term solution against corrosion for aluminum.

With all due respect that is not correct.


Scott McDaniels, RVator article, 5th issue 2005, tested 2024-T3 alclad
aluminum with: Bare (clad), SW wash primer and scotchbrite/prime finish.

The test sample was place out in the open, subject ambient Oregon Pacific
coastal regional weather (60 miles from ocean).


"After 3.5 years outside the (wash) primer surface is still shiny new
underneath. The portion that had no primer has light corrosion."

<further>

"At Van's, we still believe that construction an RV without adding any
additional protection to the alclad skin surfaces is a viable, lower cost/lower
labor option. We also believe that the product that we apply to the QB kits is
a good compromise when your consider cost versus benefit. It affords the
customer the added airplane value of additional corrosion protection on the
entire airframe without a lot of additional cost."


There are +35 year old Wichita airplanes on the ramp going strong with out
ANY primer. A RV with NO primer will out live all of us, unless you like to wash
it in salt water.

Except for extrusions, our RV kit structure is clad alum and does not NEED
priming? I put a (?) because what ever makes you happy. If you have a Lake
amphibian or C180 on floats in salt water, sure prime way. RV in a hanger or in
the desert south west no so much.

As far as using thicker (heavier) sealing primer, think of the added weight. An
exterior paint job can weight up to 30 lbs for primer, paint, trim, sealer.
Completely "sealing" the interior structure with "sealing primer" could easily
weight 10 lbs (guess, could be more). Also consider the $cost$ and labor:
(scotchbrite, etch, rinse, alodine, rinse, dry, mix, prime, flip, mix, prime).

Wash primer is not a sealer, correct, but it does help. My story is you don't
needed it on clad structure anyway. I don't think I'll care if my fuselage or
wings have some minor surface corrosion in 100 years.


Cheers George

 

[LifeofReiley]

George George George

Calm down George... I DID NOT say SW wash primer didn't work did I?
And YES... Van's Wash Primer idea on QB's was so that they would NOT have any corrosion issues from transportation in containers. I did say that it was NOT a LONG TERM solution for corrosion on aluminum! I didn't even say what type of aluminum...?

Myself, I'm not priming anything EXCEPT bar stock and angle etc... raw aluminum items.

Slap Slap...! Don't talk about primer Darrell. God forbid another Primer WAR!

 

[osxuser]

Same here, the angles and ribs get Zinc Chromate. Everything else is clad, so thats that. . .

 

[Robert M]

covering the inside.....

I'm new so I apologize for my ignorance but isn't the idea of "coating" parts on the inside of the airframe really more a way of "insulating" them against being in direct contact with each other? Isn't that "contact" point what causes corrosion? Acid rain, (around the larger metropolitan areas), disimilar metals = current - somewhat like a battery - bingo - corrosion. In essence that "contact" point becomes a tiny battery when it gets wet and corrosion starts. I've heard that Cessna has never "primed/coated" the inside of their aircraft? Well, unprotected anything (metal) will begin to corrode after time, but how long are we talking about? That varies with location.

If I had my plane parked on the ramp at North Myrtle Beach S.C. (CRE), it would be coated inside and out but I live about 150 miles from that coast.
I have no plans to protect the inerds of my plane except those parts that are either extruded or are disimilar metals.

Alright - here's your chance - yell at me - I can take it!

 

[Sam Buchanan]

Same here, the angles and ribs get Zinc Chromate. Everything else is clad, so thats that. . .

The ribs and (fuse bulkheads) are also Alclad. The dull finish is due to the hydroforming process.

Sam Buchanan

 

[jcoloccia]

The dissimilar metals you're reffering to are actually in the aluminum itself. In the case of 2024, it's aluminum alloyed with copper (I think it's copper, anyhow). Add a way for ions to travel around (salt water works well) and you get corrosion. Protecting the aluminum with primers, sacrificial coatings, etc keeps the salt water from getting anywhere it can cause problems.

Then there's also the traditional dissimilar metals corrosion you're thinking of. It all works the same way.

A solid chunk of pure aluminum (lots of metals are like this) is practically corrosion proof since you're missing the basic ingredients for corrosion, and the aluminum forms a protective aluminum oxide coating as soon as you expose it to the air.

 

[Robert M]

Getting back to the original question - yes, the QB is primed according to an RV-7A builder I know. He bought the QB and it was primed per the "Van's Specs" by the builders in the Philippines or was that Pakistan?

This, I believe, is done to satisfy those that plan to "cover" everything - inside and out.

IMO

 

[gmcjetpilot]

What? there is no need....

Calm down George... I DID NOT say SW wash
primer didn't work did I?
And YES... Van's Wash Primer idea on QB's was so that they would
NOT have any corrosion issues from transportation in containers. I did
say that it was NOT a LONG TERM solution for corrosion on
aluminum! I didn't even say what type of aluminum...?

Myself, I'm not priming anything EXCEPT bar stock and angle etc...
raw aluminum items.

There is no need to defend yourself.

For someone that goes by Life-of-Reiley, you should calm down, with your
capital letter BOLD print self. Dude, I am always totally calm.

Your comment, "It's not a long term solution against corrosion for aluminum"


I disagree with you and concur with Van per the referenced RVator article.
Sorry no offense. Van feels it provides value to their customers and its a
good compromise between plan clad and the full meal deal prep and primer.
That is all. Is that OK? Really no offense.

It's your opinion that it's a transient or not permanent finish; that's an
opinion I don't share. It clearly is not as good as a sealing primer, but it does
not need to be. As long as you don't abrade it or subject it to extream
conditions it should last a LONG time, for the intended purpose.

Get the article and read it. Although not scientific 3.5 years outside under
constant weather, the wash primer still protected the metal. I am going to
make an educated guess, it should last many more years inside your fuselage
or empennage. Just my opinion and feel free to disagree, that's cool. It is Noted.

Also you said, "helps the QB's cross over in the container without showing up
at Van's with corrosion". I agree 100%, but that is not the only reason Van
wash primes, as you make it sound. If all Van wanted to do is seal it for a
short trip across the ocean, they would could bag or wrap it. That's
all. Geeee, again no offense.


I don't getting all BOLD print on me; feel free to email directly off-line next
time you feel misunderstood. If you would like to learn more. I made my living
for years in engineering, aerospace structure, before switching to airline
flying. I'd like to talk to you.

Have a Nice Day, George

 

[wjnmd]

I assumed that the primer on the QB kit was a primer so I painted over it. Unfortunately, the paint didn't stick so I had to scrape off what I could and go over it with real primer. Paint sticks great now.

Bill Near

 

[Rick6a]

..........I've heard that Cessna has never "primed/coated" the inside of their aircraft? Well, unprotected anything (metal) will begin to corrode after time, but how long are we talking about?.........your chance - yell at me - I can take it!

Robert,
Ah, To prime or not to prime, that is the perennial question. We all have our 2 cents worth of opinion....and here is yet another fellow's personal observation. In the end, our opinions (about anything really) are a complex stew of hearsay, bias, knowledge, and personal experience. You heard correct about unprimed Cessnas...my 1966 C-150F model was totally assembled without the application of any interior primer to protect its structural parts whatsoever whether they are in direct contact with anything or not. Almost always based in the Midwest, my personally owned example has for 18 years held up remarkably well for a 40 year old airplane.
ON THE OTHER HAND, based upon my longtime experience on the production shop floor where corrosion control was a paramount concern, I totally epoxy primed EVERYTHING inside my RV-6A prior to assembly including 100% of the interior surface of the skins.

No metal to metal contact exists anywhere. I even primed the bottom surface on nutplates....like we often did on the shop floor by fay sealing the contact surface of the nutplate prior to riveting. I've seen first hand what kind of havoc corrosion can cause....despite the best corrosion control methods known to man......though admittedly the worst corrosion damage I have observed (and for a time, repaired) was on salt-water combat aircraft subjected to years of service on an aircraft carrier. I'm talking about corrosion so advanced, the affected aluminum recalled a flaky bisquit and peeled way in layers just as easily! STILL.....on my RV-8A project, I have revisited my corrosion control attitudes and decided this time to prime only those surfaces that come into direct contact with one another. My gut tells me that even minimal corrosion control efforts may tend to enhance resale value if that day should ever come. That is just my personal opinion. Still, my RV is likely to spend the majority of its life well removed from a salt water environment. If it were based in say....Hawaii...I might well have a very different attitude. In the end, despite sometimes passionate arguments freely offered by those who think they know better.....it is after all, your time, your airplane, and your wallet....you are better served following your own instincts, personal experience and ultimate conclusions.
Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla"

 

[RV_7A]

I've decided that priming aluminum is for the birds... Here is a photo of a 1946 Luiscombe without any primer on the alclad. Thats 60 years without protection. Looks pretty good to me. Hell I hope I live that long!

 

[osxuser]

The ribs and (fuse bulkheads) are also Alclad. The dull finish is due to the hydroforming process.

Sam Buchanan

I kinda figured that from the plans, but since they didn't have plastic on them, they got primed. Thats my guide, the blue plastic... stupid I know. It does seem that the shiny alclad stuff scratches a LOT easier than the ribs.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Don't worry

I assumed that the primer on the QB kit was a primer so I
painted over it. Unfortunately, the paint didn't stick so I had to scrape off
what I could and go over it with real primer. Paint sticks great now.

Bill Near

You have to paint right after priming, but to be honest
painting shinny alclad with NO surface prep of any kind is not something I
would do for parts I was going to paint. I would as you say go over it
with "real" surface prep (mechanical scratching with scotchbrite pad and or
etch), than apply real primer. The down side is in the surface prep. Now why
the paint did not stick I guess was surface contamination. You have to paint
while primer is fresh.

Painting shinny aluminum and expecting it to stick is too sporty for me.
However for the wash primer the way Van uses it, to just put a thin, light
easy to apply protective layer it is what it is. Since wash primer alone in the
tail cone is not subject to abuse and only has to "hold itself" onto the
aluminum, it works acceptably.

There is NO substitute for the kind of excellent work Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla"
did. You want a scratch and corrosion resistant protective layer there is no
substitute to TIME+WORK+MONEY or scotchbite, etch, alodine, sealing primer
and there never will be. My only real complaint about priming everything is
weight.

The debate of is it needed is an individual choice, but we where talking about
wash primer on QB kits. That choice is made for you, at least if you buy a QB
kit.

Do what makes you happy. If you buy a QB, accept the wash primer and be
happy. If you paint the cockpit area for a final exposed "decorative" finish, I
personally would at least scotchbrite it, clean and re-prime before painting,
to get a durable finish QB or not. Painting over primer that was applied on
shinny metal is marginal, despite the self etching and claim it will "stick".

G

 

[RV_7A]

^^^^TOTALLY AGREE^^^^^

I painted my QB interior right over the Vans Sherwin Williams P60 G2 just after pressure washing and the paint stuck pretty well but not as much as I would have liked it to.

-Jeff

 

[13brv3]

Excellent post George. For the record, the QB boys might be doing better than you think now. I just got my QB kit in Feb, and it's clear to see that they at least gave the metal a few swipes with scotchbrite before they primed.

Anyone who can resist priming is my hero. I've tried, but in the end, I just have to spray something on it. I wish I could resist, but I can't, though I do the least I can do for sure.

BTW, I just did a pre-purchase inspection of a project for someone about a week ago. This was nearly 15 years old, and was pretty well traveled on it's 3rd owner. The most recent owner (not counting the guy who bought it Saturday) lived on a salt water canal. The plane didn't have a spot of primer, anywhere but the non-alclad parts, and the metal looked great!

Cheers,
Rusty (canopy fitted, engine hung)

 

[LifeofReiley]

There is no need to defend yourself.

For someone that goes by Life-of-Reiley, you should calm down, with your
capital letter BOLD print self. Dude, I am always totally calm.

George,

I don't have to defend anything, as I made a statement that came straight from the horses mouth... (that would be Van's) at Sun & Fun last year.

And now you want to make fun of my name too? I am also calm. I guess we can agree to disagree but I really feel we are on the same page here.

Remember: I do not prime alclad because it does not need to be primed. I will scuff and shoot a little on bar and angle stock.

The plane should last a 100 years or so... I'll never know.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Hey LifeOR write me direct

There is no need to defend yourself.

For someone that goes by Life-of-Reiley, you should calm down, with your
capital letter BOLD print self. Dude, I am always totally calm.

George,

I don't have to defend anything, as I made a statement that came straight
from the horses mouth... (that would be Van's) at Sun & Fun last year.

And now you want to make fun of my name too? I am also calm. I guess we
can agree to disagree but I really feel we are on the same page
here.

Remember: I do not prime alclad because it does not need to be primed. I will
scuff and shoot a little on bar and angle stock.

The plane should last a 100 years or so... I'll never know.

My
feelings exactly. You did not mention your approach but agree with it. I am
pretty neutral on the subject of primers, brand and whether to or not to. I
think we do agree on this. The only thing you MUST do, as we all know, is
prime bare aluminum. Done deal. Cut, print, it's a wrap. However.............


That's not what we where talking about. Topic is QB wash primer Van's uses.

I am just passed on info (like you) I think the general RV public can use;
however the info I passed on is written down and based on an article from
the 5th 2005 issue of the RVator. If you are mad, write Scott McDaniels,
because who ever you talked to is not singing the same tune as Van's
aircraft per that article.

You first said "information I gathered a couple of years ago"; now say you
heard this at Van's "tent" at an airshow last year; That is cool, but it's moot;
I don't agree either way. Who told you this? Richard or who? Not to bash
Van's, but sometimes Van's Rep's say things off the cuff or counter to
another representatives opinon. I have been a RV'er for 18 years and know
the company and the planes pretty well, enough to know to filter the static.

This is not the first time Van's folks said two differnt things or things that are
wrong. Hey it happens we are hunman. It is no big deal, but I would like to
know who you talked to. I am not shy, I'll call Van and ask. I know DickVanG
enough to know if it was up to him he would not put squat on it. They don't
even prime the exterior of the Factory planes before painting. That is how
they keep the weight down. Van the man is a "minimalist" or some would
say "frugal". That is a good thing for us and why our RV kits are a
BARGAIN!

I am sorry if I miss interpreted your original post, but it came off to me as
trivializing the QB wash primer, which I think is unfair, regardless of who you
heard it from. I don't want to fight about "My Van Guy can beat-up your Van
guy". It's just silly; lets keep it to the facts. The only fact I have is Scott's
informal SW wash primer test, 3.5 years in sun, rain and snow, and it put's it
in perspective, to me at least, that's all, nothing personal. I am done.

Ding Ding Ding, Round 3. Please don't carry this onto 4. I'll take a dive you
are right I am wrong. You go undefeated. I don't care to win, I just want to
help other builders with useful info so they can make there own mind up.

If you have a problem with me write direct. [email protected].

Happy days, fly safe G

PS "And now you want to make fun of my name too?" The name "Life O Riley"
means the easy life or good life. Good name, but you just seem uptight,
that's all. However, since you bring it up names, when you reply to someones
post with "George George George", it comes off as very condescending, add
the bold caps, it's aggressive. Please don't do that again. Thanks.