scsmith

Well Known Member
Hey everyone, check out the write-up on the VAF homepage from Paul Dye about Van's visit to NASA Johnson Spaceflight Center.
 
Louise, can it be posted on this thread? It's a great story! As I told Paul, I've never managed to get even a smile out of Van in the 14-or-so years that I've tried at Oshkosh. :D
 
Louise, can it be posted on this thread? It's a great story! As I told Paul, I've never managed to get even a smile out of Van in the 14-or-so years that I've tried at Oshkosh. :D

Certainly not my call, but I'm sure Paul will see the request.

As for getting a smile out of Van....ask him about his motor glider. It think that's where he find joy these days.
 
This is WAY cool!

Paul - as a lurking admirer of yours, this was fantastic to see our community's mutual hero enjoy one of those exceedingly rare 'ultimates' in aviation - thanks so much for doing that and for allowing us to watch.

Now....whens MY turn??;)

Jon Weiswasser, MD
RV-8, N898JW
 
Louise, can it be posted on this thread? It's a great story! As I told Paul, I've never managed to get even a smile out of Van in the 14-or-so years that I've tried at Oshkosh. :D


IMG_3562.JPG

Over the course of my flying career, I have had the opportunity to fly with a lot of highly skilled pilots. I’ve flown both left and right seat with guys who were the top in their class at test pilot schools. But yesterday I had the unique privilege to fly with a fellow who here needs no introduction – the designer of our wonderful line of airplanes, Dick VanGrunsven himself! The occasion was a visit to mid-winter Houston, which meant that the weather was pretty bad – but that was just fine, as we weren’t going to be flying in it anyway. We were going to be giving it our best in the world’s only Space Shuttle Motion Base Simulator.

Late last year I offered Van a tour of the NASA facilities here on the Gulf Coast if he ever got by, and it turns out he was going to be passing through after a soaring convention, so he called to take me up on the offer. Getting approval to fly guests in the “Base” is not easy, but with enough prior arrangement I was able to book a couple of hours (cancellable at any time due to a higher priority user) for a demo flight. Van brought along a couple of family members, and it so happened that Doug Reeves was available to come and take a few pictures. Louise wasn’t about to be left out, so we had a full house to go fly.

I invited Van to try out the left seat as I settled in to the right, and the others strapped in to the “jump seats”. Five point harnesses all around, as our first and most important goal was safety – this machine can hurt you if you’re not careful! Watching it lurch around the big simulator bay from the outside is enough to convince anyone to cinch down on those straps.

It took just a couple of minutes for the operator to set us up for a “50K” reset. “Van, this one is going to be all yours – I’ll back you up from the right eat, but won’t touch anything unless I think we’re going to bust something”, I said. “ We’ll be coming out of reset about 50,000’, having just crossed over the runway and headed towards the Heading Alignment Cone (HAC) – think of it as a continuous turn to final from an overhead approach. Look through the HUD, put the little airplane symbol on the guidance square, and don’t forget to enjoy the view as we land in about 4 minutes!”

Van is, as you would expect, a very good stick. As the sim came alive, I punched off the autopilot and suggested he do a couple of pitch and roll doublets to see how it handles, and it was evident he was used to ‘first flights’ – he had a very smooth and gentle approach to flying. As we approach the HAC and the guidance asked for a roll, we smoothly banked to about 45 degrees and tracked as if we were on rails. As we slid around the final few degrees of turn and on to final, I called the runway way up the top of the windshield – it tends to appear there when you are on a 19 degree glide slope! Dropping through 10,000’ on final, about 5 miles from the runway at 300 knots (+/-), I briefed Van on the “preflare” coming at 2,000’.

“The Preflare is a 1.3G pull on to a final glide slope of about a half a degree. You want to cross the threshold at about 60 feet, and then not mess with it, as PIO is very common if you try to sweeten the landing in ground effect. You’ll cross the fence at about 260 knots – be ready for the speed! I’ll get the gear at 400’, and deploy the drag chute after touchdown. End the preflare with the velocity vector a hairs-width below the horizon, and you should be about right.” We were down to 2,000’ in the time it took for me to brief all that, and the Shuttle responded to Van’s touch as we entered the preflare, smoothly changing our aim point to the runway (we had been aiming about 7,000’ short due to the planned excess energy), about 2500’ down. I called altitudes, dropped the gear, and we settled nicely to a gratifying “chirp” of both main trucks. “Chute is out, 180 knots, de-rotate” I called, and Van pushed the nose down gently to plant the nose gear, steering us to a final stop using brakes as required. The combination of visuals and motion create a very good illusion of flight – enough to keep you holding the brakes after touchdown, even though the simulator has been stopped and is turning around for the next run. “Congratulations Dick – you landed the Shuttle on your first try!” I said, as we shook hands and got ready for another try approach. I was not surprised that an experienced glider pilot like Van would have little trouble with our “heavy” – even if the speeds are five or six times what he’s used to.

It was wonderful getting a chance to share my ‘day job’ flying world with a guy who has given us all such wonderful flying machines to play with in our leisure time. With the Shuttle program coming to an end, I was really pleased that he was able to make the time before this magnificent simulator joins our other space program relics as a historical monument, never to heave it’s mighty mass about the building again. Van proved what I always say – flying is flying, no matter what the machine. You treat the airplane with respect, concentration, and dedication, whether it is a Cub, an RV, or the Shuttle…and with a smooth touch, they all contribute to the eternal joy of flight!

Paul (Dye)

Paul & Louise's photos
http://picasaweb.google.com/Ironflight/2010_02_01ShuttleSimulatorWithVan#

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K6NHarASMo
 
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Thanks Larry!

As much as folks might enjoy the story, you can imagine how much I enjoyed the opporunity to let Van have a go at our little flying machine.

Paul
 
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Noisyest glider I ever heard!

Thanks for posting it Larry, thats what I hoped would happen.
Watching the U-tube video, it sure is noisy in there - I don't think the VMS sim at Ames has so much 'sound effects'.
 
That really must've been great...it sure was fun to watch! Very cool to share the experience with Van! I saw the article on the home page this morning (yes the teaser worked Doug...first thing I did when I got up!) and was hoping a thread might pop up, as I was hoping to ask ya'll a couple questions...like:

- How doggone cool and fun was it to fly the Shuttle Doug and Louise?...yee haw!

- Was the sight picture on final just awe-inspiring when seen for the first time?

- How was the feel of the control stick? (I know its a sim, and likely sensitive, but just wonderin' what it was like to fly.)

And a couple for Paul:

- I heard you call for "de-rotation" a couple times, and thought I heard you say to use forward stick for it once. I was wondering if the de-rotation is a positive move to fly the nosewheel down before it starts to drop through, or if it is more like holding the nosewheel off till it starts to drop, then adding back pressure to fly it down and keep it from falling too hard.

- Another thing I noted (besides all the cool MFD's I'd love to have in the RV, ahem ;)) is the Quick Reference Handbooks or Checklists up on the glareshield (I think that's what it looked like). Can't recall if there are windows there, or is that is just bulkhead for stiffness and re-entry protection. Is that a standard placement, and are they open to phase of flight, or mission specific areas?

Definitely a fantasy flight day! Glad ya'll had so much fun!

Cheers,
Bob
 
Derotation?

...- I heard you call for "de-rotation" a couple times, and thought I heard you say to use forward stick for it once. I was wondering if the de-rotation is a positive move to fly the nosewheel down before it starts to drop through, or if it is more like holding the nosewheel off till it starts to drop, then adding back pressure to fly it down and keep it from falling too hard...
Yep, I am pretty curious about that too. At first I thought it might just be a case of NASA jargon but maybe there actually is a difference. We are all used to having to hold the nose up in a tri-gear aircraft but maybe it is actually necessary to push the nose down or it will come crashing down when the airspeed reaches a certain value.



OT pet peeve:

Rotation is necessary in multi-engine airplanes but anyone who rotates in a single engine airplane gets some demerits in my mind, especially in an RV! I have been asked several times what my rotation speed is. Shudder!
 
snip:
- How doggone cool and fun was it to fly the Shuttle Doug and Louise?...yee haw!

- Was the sight picture on final just awe-inspiring when seen for the first time?

- How was the feel of the control stick? (I know its a sim, and likely sensitive, but just wonderin' what it was like to fly.).....snip

Cooler than I can put in words. I was talking with a gentleman outside the sim before I got in and mentioned that on the day I was born in '65, Pete Conrad was orbiting the Earth in Gemini V on his rookie flight with Gordo Cooper. Pete Conrad was for me THE astronaut to be. "Pete, huh? He trained for his Skylab mission in this room right over here." It was that kind of day <g>.

The site pic was pretty basic, actually...just a runway and a coastline - it was the feel that was unusual (the rate of descent and the very non-RV responsiveness of the controls) Big aircraft. I wasn't looking around though - too busy concentrating on following the HUD guidance. I knew if I pranged it I'd be ribbed without end from Paul, Louise and Van. You might notice I didn't take my head off the HUD for a nanosecond.

The stick doesn't move, but the handle on the upper part does pivot a few degrees. Of course I was WAY too agressive with it in the flair and ended up somewhat near the centerline, but not on it.

You know that feeling when you're in the flare in your RV and you're waiting for the speed to decay and feeling for the ground? It felt like that for about two solid minutes flying this thing <g>.

Paul has a great job :D
 
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Paul said because the drogue chute is so high up on the tail (on purpose above the thrustline) that you have to actually force the stick forward to get the nosewheel to come down. And, because when the nosewheel is on the ground there is actually a negative incidence relative to the wind, I found that once the shuttle passed through level that the oncoming wind seemed to make the nosewheel come down faster. In the clip you can see me pull back on the stick right before the nosewheel touches in an attempt to reduce the vertical velocity of the wheel touching. Of course, I'm not sure if that's what they want you to do :rolleyes:. I was thinking everything in RV terms.

9 hours in the car that day...and worth it.


Yep, I am pretty curious about that too. At first I thought it might just be a case of NASA jargon but maybe there actually is a difference. We are all used to having to hold the nose up in a tri-gear aircraft but maybe it is actually necessary to push the nose down or it will come crashing down when the airspeed reaches a certain value.



OT pet peeve:

Rotation is necessary in multi-engine airplanes but anyone who rotates in a single engine airplane gets some demerits in my mind, especially in an RV! I have been asked several times what my rotation speed is. Shudder!
 
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Thanks Doug! Comments below:

Cooler than I can put in words. I was talking with a gentleman outside the sim before I got in and mentioned that on the day I was born in '65, Pete Conrad was orbiting the Earth in Gemini V on his rookie flight with Gordo Cooper. Pete Conrad was for me THE astronaut to be. "Pete, huh? He trained for his Skylab mission in this room right over here." It was that kind of day <g>.

I'll bet! Been a space junkie forever too (born in the year of the Sputnik, Dad worked for Lockheed Missles and Space). I'll bet it was like being a kid at Willie Wonka's! Nah, way better! Very cool!

The site pic was pretty basic, actually...just a runway and a coastline - it was the feel that was unusual (the rate of descent and the very non-RV responsiveness of the controls) Big aircraft. I wasn't looking around though - too busy concentrating on following the HUD guidance. <snip> You might notice I didn't take my head off the HUD for a nanosecond.

The stick doesn't move, but the handle on the upper part does pivot a few degrees. Of course I was WAY too agressive with it in the flair and ended up somewhat near the centerline, but not on it.

You know that feeling when you're in the flare in your RV and you're waiting for the speed to decay and feeling for the ground? It felt like that for about two solid minutes flying this thing <g>.

Looked like you were concentrating, but it looked and sounded (from Paul's calls) like you flew it very nicely! Did you get the patch!?!

I knew if I pranged it I'd be ribbed without end from Paul, Louise and Van.

Nah, say it isn't so! Well, OK, them, and maybe 10,000 more of out here in VAF-land! :p I imagine the Shuttle pilots concentrate like you did too. Heck, their landing is only being graded by what, a few million viewers! ;)

Paul has a great job :D

Oh yeah!

Paul said because the drogue chute is so high up on the tail (on purpose above the thrustline) that you have to actually force the stick forward to get the nosewheel to come down. And, because when the nosewheel is on the ground there is actually a negative incidence relative to the wind, I found that once the shuttle passed through level that the oncoming wind seemed to make the nosewheel come down faster. In the clip you can see me pull back on the stick right before the nosewheel touches in an attempt to reduce the vertical velocity of the wheel touching. Of course, I'm not sure if that's what they want you to do :rolleyes:. I was thinking everything in RV terms.

9 hours in the car that day...and worth it.

Interesting tid-bit...very cool. Thanks for all the info and for the pics and vid! An excellent adventure!!

Cheers,
Bob
 
Well, you smart guys got it all pretty much right!

The Shuttle has a very delicate nosewheel strut, and if it does break, it goes through fuel tanks, so it has to be handle with kid gloves. "Derotation" is the process of putting the nose down, and yes, with a negative 4 degree angle of attack on the ground (to keep the nose strut short for weight savings and space), the pitch down accelerates as you pass through zero alpha.

In the days before the drag chute (it's not a drogue chute) it was imperative to get the derotation going at 180 knots so you didn't run out of elevon authority before you got the nose on the ground. Even then, hard slapdowns resulted because the elevons just couldn't move fast enough from down to up. The drag chute helps all that because it creates a positive pitching moment. that give you one force pulling the nose up, so you can use the elevons to PUSH it down. I had the guys do it the hard way on Monday by manually controlling with the Hand Controller. The easy way is to just push forward on the coolie hat, and it automatically gives you a constant derotation rate, but that is too hard to explain during the rollout, and too hard for most folks to remember from prebrief through their first or second approach! ;)

The hand Controller is much like a computer joystick mounted to the front of the seat. The pitch axis is at the height of your palm, and the roll axis is about 4 inches below your wrist - but it feels natural pretty fast. The orbiter flies with an attitude hold system - if you are not moving the stick, it holds whatever attitude it is in. Quite different from a normal airplane, but again, you get used to it fairly quickly, as evidenced by our intrepid fliers on Monday!

Paul
 
Beyond words

- How doggone cool and fun was it to fly the Shuttle Doug and Louise?...yee haw!

- Was the sight picture on final just awe-inspiring when seen for the first time?

It was quite an experience. One that I never expected to have, even a few weeks ago. I'll show my age but I remember going out in the backyard (in L.A.) to spot Telstar fly over. I was very fortunate that my mom would wake me early and write excuses for me to arrive late to school for every Mercury launch. In those days, girls couldn't reasonably expect to ever have the chance to fly a spaceship. I could never have predicted this event would ever come my way.

As for the sight picture on final, I (like Doug) was completely focused on the HUD.....boxes, circles, and triangles. I did notice that the runway was coming at me awfully fast and we were dropping like the proverbial brick. The awe-inspiring sight picture came more in the back, while just a passenger.

Great fun. I'm glad that I met Paul. I think I'll keep him!
 
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Ironflight, I have a question about the videos...

...What keeps the open pages of the books from flopping around? They seem to be "stuck" somehow...

And what a great adventure...thanks for sharing.
 
...What keeps the open pages of the books from flopping around? They seem to be "stuck" somehow...
.

One word.....VELCRO! (on the corner of very page). And to answer an earlier question, those flip books aren't covering a window - there is no "center window" up front - just a broad rib of tile. So that space was just asking to have checklists placed there.

One other piece of trivia on Doug's video - if you look between those books during the ascent (near the end of the video), you'll see a couple of strings hanging straight "back" towards the camera - those tells you that we are really laying on our backs relative to local vertical. They serve as a visual reminder not to unbuckle and try to get up if the sim freezes in that position!

Paul
 
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Really Special

That was way cool.

There is nothing like being able to get to go behind the scenes for such an awesome program. I was fortunate to able to be treated to a VIP morning shuttle launch some years ago. The company I worked for was doing business with United Space Alliance at the time. The people I worked with set it up for me to get the behind the scenes tour of the cape facilities such as the shuttle hangars as well as the VAB building. The VAB building really impressed me. A shuttle was being configured inside for a flight at the time. We went up to the 36th floor in the glass elevator and standing on the platform you could barely see the extra external fuel tanks being stored at the top of the building. I got to see another shuttle in a hangar being turned around from a completed mission as well. So there were three shuttles there at the time. One going to space, one that returned from space and another one being readied to return to space.

We watched the launch at the Indian River site where I think the Saturn rocket viewing building is now. Later I received an 8 X 10 launch picture and letter as a momento from the Space program. I still got my pictured access badge with the proper authorization codes in my dresser at home. Last year my daughter stumbled onto to the video I took at the launch viewing site.

I would have loved to fly the shuttle sim.

Paul you do have a great job.
 
"Paul, you DO have a great job ..."

... Paul you do have a great job.

How come nobody ever says that to me? I mean, wouldn't you all just LOVE to participate in a ROOT CANAL? I could videotape one and talk you through how to step through all of the files to enlarge the canals sufficiently to obturate them?

Or how 'bout how to prepare a tooth for a CROWN? Pretty cool stuff. I could even demonstrate using a LASER prior to taking the impression.

Oooh ... I know I have your attention now ...

What about GUM DISEASE? Yeah, now we're talkin', baby! I could whip out my Nd:YAG laser and shoot a video of how the Laser-Assisted New Attachment Procedure ("LANAP") is done. You people are just drooling with anticipation now ...

Naaaahhh ...

Space shuttles are a lot more fun. I know it.

Paul, you DO have a great job! :D
 
Glide path control?

800px-STS-116_landing_port_behind.jpg

This is a link to a photo on Wikipedia that is unattributed


This question is for any of the 3 Space Shuttle qualified VAF members.

I always figured the Shuttle worked kind of like a conventional glider where during the landing approach airspeed is generally controlled with the elevator and glide path is controlled with the airbrakes (or spoilers/flaps) that are operated by a separate control. In the video of you folks you seem to be concentrating solely on lining up some markings on the HUD. It appears that you are flying the glideslope with the stick and speed is taken care of by automatic operation of the split-rudder airbrake. Or what?
 
Paul, my girlfriend's cousin is a shuttle pilot, and it occurs to me that you might know her! She's Col. Pam Melroy, and I got to spend some time talking to her back in november about flying... was a very cool experience.
 
snip...This question is for any of the 3 Space Shuttle qualified VAF members.
I always figured the Shuttle worked kind of like a conventional glider where during the landing approach airspeed is generally controlled with the elevator and glide path is controlled with the airbrakes (or spoilers/flaps) that are operated by a separate control. In the video of you folks you seem to be concentrating solely on lining up some markings on the HUD. It appears that you are flying the glideslope with the stick and speed is taken care of by automatic operation of the split-rudder airbrake. Or what?

Qualified to look like a student pilot in there maybe :rolleyes:. But to your question, yes, there was a lever (where the throttle in a RV-4/8 would be) that split out the rudder into an airbrake. Paul said our approaches were in 'automatic' mode, meaning that the brake was done automatically....and I could be wrong on this.

He said the manual approaches, where you have to handle the flying as well as the speedbrake is much, much harder. I'll see if I can find a pic of that lever....(found it).

2yo22cn.jpg
 
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Once again, our budding Shuttle aviator has it correct - the speed brake was left in "Auto" for simplicity sake, and in that mode, it controls indicated airspeed to 297 knots on the glide slope. Just before the preflare, it goes to a fixed position for the remainder of the landing, that position based on a number of variables. The piloting task is greatly simplified if you don't have to do both airspeed and glide slope.

The same lever is used for the throttles on ascent - it is called the "Speedbrake/Throttle Controller".

Paul
 
control inputs

Paul...
It looked like you (actually Doug) were putting in a lot of control inputs (full stop to stop) to maintain the glide path.... At ?thousand km/hr would the computers allow this to happen..?
 
RV GRIN

Paul,
You hardly ever see Van crack a smile.
From the pictures in the SIM, looks like Van got a BIG RV GRIN from your little flying machine.
Well done!
 
That is awesome.

Getting a chance to just sit in the left seat of the real shuttle simulator when I was in my early teens is one of the things that pushed me towards taking up flying in the first place... :)
 
Whoa-Go Stick!

Joe, if we told you, we'd have to...well, not really!

Rumor has it that some of the Alabama engineers wanted to call it a "Whoa-Go Stick" but it went through several Review Boards before the final name was selected!
 
Outstanding!

Reread the simulator stories several times. I am very proud to be a member of this fine RV community.
 
Windshield

IMG_3581.JPG


This photo was a jolt for me. I have seen many photos and television images of the Shuttle and it always looked like there was a windshield from side to side just like an airliner.

poty-space-shuttle.jpg

Well that isn't the case at all. There is a small side window and a smaller window in front of each person in the front seats and a big gap in between which is used as storage space for various manuals and checklists.

But I go back and look at the photos and it still looks like a windshield all the way across.

Shuttle.jpg

So now I am really wondering. Is that just a case of visual design, carrying the black all the way across or is there an engineering reason? I do notice that the nose is a similar black color.
 
I think the window to the left side of Van is actually the middle window of three.
Their is actually a third window further out of view to the left. So their is actually three windows on each side as appears to be the case in the lift off shot, with a large space between the two forward most windows (notice in the cockpit shot how far apart the seats are).
I'm sure Paul can confirm whether that this is the case.
 
I think the window to the left side of Van is actually the middle window of three.
Their is actually a third window further out of view to the left. So their is actually three windows on each side as appears to be the case in the lift off shot, with a large space between the two forward most windows (notice in the cockpit shot how far apart the seats are).
I'm sure Paul can confirm whether that this is the case.
Yep Scott, you are right. I looked at a bunch of photos but didn't think to look at that video.

The question remains about the big gap and if it was disguised or if there is another reason why the black carries all the way across.
 
Yep Scott, you are right. I looked at a bunch of photos but didn't think to look at that video.

The question remains about the big gap and if it was disguised or if there is another reason why the black carries all the way across.

If you think of the windows more as "port holes" than a windshield, it makes more sense Larry. There is a lot of structure in the center, between windows 3 and 4 (they are numbered from 1 on the CDR's left, to 6 on the PLT's right). That's basically for strength, and the black are the high temperature tiles. There are aerodynamic discontinuities at the edges of the windows, and those mean high temperature points in the hypersonic region, hence the black tiles (white are for lower temps). We do, indeed, use the space between 3 and 4 to mount flip books and checklists, and on orbit, the crew usually stuffs a laptop computer up there.

The SMS is very accurate in the size of (and view from) the window, but doesn't' reproduce the thickness that you get from three panes of thick glass in each slot. BTW, there are two pressure panes, and a thermal (exterior) pane - a very thick buildup, with space in between each.

Truth be told, the cenerline view isn't very useful anyway - your peripheral vision is only helpful on the left (the right is blocked by a guy in a big orange suit), and the nose is high enough that the view (in the flair) just right of center is pretty much sky.
 
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...Truth be told, the cenerline view isn't very useful anyway - your peripheral vision is only helpful on the left (the right is blocked by a guy in a big orange suit), and the nose is high enough that the view (in the flair) just right of center is pretty much sky.
Thank you Paul. It sounds like it is strictly engineering with aesthetic consequences.

Not too good for scanning, but I guess "see and avoid" isn't a big issue in this case.