[Jrskygod]

Exiting the hold on the last approach on my IPC in my RV9 with Dynon and Garmin leading the way. Every time I fly this stuff I'm just amazed with the capability of this equipment and I learn something new. When I first learned this IFR stuff I had a LORAN in the panel and thought I was ace of the base!!!

 

[DonFromTX]

OK, so when are you going to give me a demonstration?

 

[k5wiv]

Glad to see South Texas coming alive with RV's. Though I'll probably never live there again, I was bourn and raised in Donna!

 

[sglynn]

Practicle knowledge

Ted,
Excellent, please could I get your real-world answer to a couple questions. I fly IFR now with a Garmin 430 and steam gauges.

1. Does the Dynon screen show HSI and Approach Plate?
2. Is the HSI info coming from the Garmin 430?
3. If you didn't have a Garmin 430W would the Dynon still be able to display and fly the approach? I know not legal /G but will it do it?
4. Does NAV receiver data for the ILS or Loc data also display on the Dynon HSI?

I'm trying to decide if I need a Garmin GPS (TSOed) or is the Dynon capability good enough and just use Nav receiver for VOR, ILS, Loc etc to make it legal IFR. Not /G but still legal, basically.

 

[Jrskygod]

Steve simple answers to your questions
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes NOT IFR LEGAL & no vertical guidance
4. Yes

You don't know what you're missing until you fly a fully coupled approach to the missed, hit the TOGA button and fly the missed approach all with just a hand on the throttle. Amazing!!!!
(I still keep the other hand right near that disconnect button cause you never know when some of those electrons are gonna revolt)

 

[Jrskygod]

Don - how about right after I get a ride in Airforce 1? LOL

I'll give you a call and we'll set up your personal skyview demo. Maybe after the next meeting? You do need to have some new shoes tho or no deal.

 

[DonFromTX]

I have new shoes with an airworthiness certificate stamp on them!

 

[ChiefPilot]

3. Yes NOT IFR LEGAL & no vertical guidance

Legalities aside, the Skyview system by itself will only fly from waypoint to waypoint; it doesn't know anything about approaches or holds. You'll need to manually enter the waypoints on the approach (or squirt them in via ForeFlight).

 

[Ed_Wischmeyer]

Garmin has (had?) a substantial price break on the gtn650 if you buy it with s g3x

 

[Auburntsts]

Legalities aside, the Skyview system by itself will only fly from waypoint to waypoint; it doesn't know anything about approaches or holds. You'll need to manually enter the waypoints on the approach (or squirt them in via ForeFlight).

If you are attempting to fly a GPS approach, that's not legal (which you kind of say up front) so why go there?

 

[ChiefPilot]

If you are attempting to fly a GPS approach, that's not legal (which you kind of say up front) so why go there?

Exactly. It is neither capable of doing approaches on its own nor legal to do so by entering waypoints manually, so it's really only a parlor trick.

 

[GalinHdz]

If you are attempting to fly a GPS approach, that's not legal (which you kind of say up front) so why go there?

Exactly. It is neither capable of doing approaches on its own nor legal to do so by entering waypoints manually, so it's really only a parlor trick.

In an emergency. At that point legal or not doesn't matter. When I am back on the ground, alive, I will deal with it. Like insurance, rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

 

[RV7A Flyer]

In an emergency. At that point legal or not doesn't matter. When I am back on the ground, alive, I will deal with it. Like insurance, rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

I don't want this to come out sounding antagonistic, so if it does, I apologize in advance.

Are you going to be entering this data for all the airports along your route, every time you fly a new route, and keep them all updated, every time you fly?

If it's an emergency that you're worried about dealing with in this manner, why not invest in the proper equipment for IFR flight, since that's what you're going to be doing to save yourself in this emergency?

 

[GalinHdz]

I don't want this to come out sounding antagonistic, so if it does, I apologize in advance.

Are you going to be entering this data for all the airports along your route, every time you fly a new route, and keep them all updated, every time you fly?

If it's an emergency that you're worried about dealing with in this manner, why not invest in the proper equipment for IFR flight, since that's what you're going to be doing to save yourself in this emergency?

I don't understand the question. Most, if not all, non IFR legal panels have a method of downloading this data on the cycle that you can easily (free) keep updated and display when needed. That it isn't 100% coupled to an autopilot like a B787 is irrelevant since I still have the data, mostly geo-referenced, and can use it in an emergency (like VFR into IMC). Like insurance, I just don't see any downside to having the capability. But that is just me.

Legalities aside, the Skyview system by itself will only fly from waypoint to waypoint; it doesn't know anything about approaches or holds. You'll need to manually enter the waypoints on the approach (or squirt them in via ForeFlight).

Yes, but you can get geo-referenced US approach plates for the SkyView system that will be of great help. In addition to "squirt them in via ForeFlight" you can now do the same from FltPlanGo.

 

[sglynn]

IFR alternatives

The reason for the questions about Dynon unit verses having a TSOed GPS or not is because the few times I had a somewhat scary moment in the clouds, I scanned the enroute chart for the nearest ILS. This might become replaced by GPS (W) but something comforting about shooting an ILS when it is storming outside.

Also for those hung up on "legal" The wording is interesting and perhaps will change over time on whether a home built experimental needs a TSO GPS to be legal /G. The owner/builder needs to prove the GPS meets the TSO requirements. That is not the same has having to have a TSOed unti in the panel. Perhaps it is unpractical today for a builder to prove Dynon unit meets the TSO requirements and I'm not asking or even suggestion that Dynon waste their time and money doing it either. But might it be possible for builders to test and show it in future. Couldn't we get a test plan we could walk thru?

 

[RV7A Flyer]

The original question was about not having a 430W (or, presumably, some other IFR GPS Navigator) to drive the display and fly the approach.

You could, I guess, use the georeferenced plates available in the SV system on their own and fly the approach.

 

[RV7A Flyer]

Couldn't we get a test plan we could walk thru?

Sure! The TSOs and the RTCA DO specs are available for anyone to use and test their equipment to. All anyone has to do is go get them, design their equipment according to all those process specs, then V&V them to the requirements in there. And don't forget to fully document your processes as well as your results.

'Tain't cheap...

 

[GalinHdz]

You could, I guess, use the georeferenced plates available in the SV system on their own and fly the approach.

EXACTLY. Without a G430, or other IFR GPS Navigator, it "taint legal". But in an emergency situation I don't care about what is legal just what will save my life.

 

[RV7A Flyer]

EXACTLY. Without a G430, or other IFR GPS Navigator, it "taint legal". But in an emergency situation I don't care about what is legal just what will save my life.

I agree wholeheartedly.

The order of precedence is: Skin. Tin. Ticket.

Those georeferenced charts would go a long way towards getting you back down in one piece, if you know how to read and use them, and can navigate to somewhere on the approach itself from wherever you happen to be. All that might be a lot to ask of a VFR pilot who stumbles into IMC, though.

There's always the 180 out of it, which should be the *first* action taken...no?

 

[GalinHdz]

There's always the 180 out of it, which should be the *first* action taken...no?

Oh yes, I agree wholeheartedly.

For some emergency situations this has to be be the first option and is where a "basic" auto pilot can be lifesaving. In other emergency situations the only option is to descend through the clouds. This is where having a non IFR legal GPS running geo referenced plates is inexpensive insurance.

 

[ChiefPilot]

In an emergency. At that point legal or not doesn't matter. When I am back on the ground, alive, I will deal with it. Like insurance, rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Try it VFR first with a safety pilot. I have, and it doesn't work very well. It'd be better than nothing, but frankly if that's what I'm down to, I'd just trust the synthetic vision and flight path marker. That's easier, faster, and requires fewer brain cycles than trying to fly a full approach with a broke airplane while dialing in waypoints manually.

I must have gotten my days mixed up this week. I thought Tuesdays were "Downwind Turn" discussion day and Sundays were "VFR GPS for IFR Approaches" day. Friday is still "Which Primer do I Use" day, right?

 

[GalinHdz]

Try it VFR first with a safety pilot. I have, and it doesn't work very well. It'd be better than nothing, but frankly if that's what I'm down to, I'd just trust the synthetic vision and flight path marker. That's easier, faster, and requires fewer brain cycles than trying to fly a full approach with a broke airplane while dialing in waypoints manually.

I have and it works great. But then again with SkyView and downloaded approach plates I don't have to dial in manual waypoints, they are all displayed on my chart. YMMV

 

[RV7A Flyer]

So what's the scenario here? An airplane that is badly "broken" and descending, or needing to get on the ground ASAP, while inadvertently in IMC?

Or simply getting into IMC while VFR and deciding to fly an approach, because you (sort of) can...vs calling ATC and fessing up, getting a clearance or a vector to clear air?

 

[civengpe]

So what's the scenario here? An airplane that is badly "broken" and descending, or needing to get on the ground ASAP, while inadvertently in IMC?

Or simply getting into IMC while VFR and deciding to fly an approach, because you (sort of) can...vs calling ATC and fessing up, getting a clearance or a vector to clear air?

What about a scenario where you are flying in IMC and the Garmin goes TU? I think it's a good idea to know how to use and the limitations all of your equipment. I used to practice shooting approaches using my Garmin 696 just in case. I would never do it willingly, but I sure knew how to do it if I had to.

 

[RV7A Flyer]

What about a scenario where you are flying in IMC and the Garmin goes TU? I think it's a good idea to know how to use and the limitations all of your equipment. I used to practice shooting approaches using my Garmin 696 just in case. I would never do it willingly, but I sure knew how to do it if I had to.

In which case, you're on an IFR flight plan and have a clearance, so yeah, using the SV w/ georeferenced plates would probably be the best choice. I'd still switch to my #2 comm and advise ATC, though...they may have a better option to vector you to VMC.

BTW, that loss of the 430W falls under the required report to ATC, per the AIM.

 

[Auburntsts]

In which case, you're on an IFR flight plan and have a clearance, so yeah, using the SV w/ georeferenced plates would probably be the best choice. I'd still switch to my #2 comm and advise ATC, though...they may have a better option to vector you to VMC.

And hopefully you have another means for legal IFR navigation besides GPS, like a VOR, so that loss of GPS is an inconvenient equipment malfunction and not an emergency.

 

[RV7A Flyer]

And hopefully you have another means for legal IFR navigation besides GPS, like a VOR, so that loss of GPS is an inconvenient equipment malfunction and not an emergency.

But if you didn't, then ATC can vector you; and if you're NOT in contact with ATC, then the best option might be to use the non-certified SV and the georeferenced plates to continue the approach, and file an ASRS form later.

 

[Auburntsts]

But if you didn't, then ATC can vector you; and if you're NOT in contact with ATC, then the best option might be to use the non-certified SV and the georeferenced plates to continue the approach, and file an ASRS form later.

Oh absolutely no argument- at that point I'm using every tool in the tool kit. The problem with this thread is we jumped straight from legal capabilities of the EFIS radio combo as demonstrated on an IPC to the most extreme emergency procedure. My concern is for those reading this thread that aren't rated being lulled into a false sense of security and not understanding the difficulty of manually loading and flying an approach like this, in IMC, and possibly without an autopilot.

 

[RV7A Flyer]

Oh absolutely no argument- at that point I'm using every tool in the tool kit. The problem with this thread is we jumped straight from legal capabilities of the EFIS radio combo as demonstrated on an IPC to the most extreme emergency procedure. My concern is for those reading this thread that aren't rated being lulled into a false sense of security and not understanding the difficulty of manually loading and flying an approach like this, in IMC, and possibly without an autopilot.

I am in 100% agreement with you...the best thing a non-rated pilot can do if he stumbles into IMC is *turn around* immediately. The statistics for doing otherwise are horrible, as we all know. And I'm with you on the difficulty of loading an approach or pulling up a plate, *navigating to an IAF*, and then trying to fly it if you are not rated.

As a fellow (very experienced) pilot told me right after I got my license: "You have what? Maybe 6 or 8 hours of flight under the hood? An hour or two in actual with an instructor? *Don't think for a MINUTE* that can save you if you get into IMC!"